What do you consider to be good accuracy with a cast bullet?

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CB posted this 07 January 2008

What do you consider to be good accuracy with a cast bullet?

What type of rifle or handgun do you consider to give the best accuracy?

What load do you use to get the best accuracy?

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billwnr posted this 07 January 2008

If we're talking Heavy class I think good accuracy is 0.6” and below for a 5 shot group at 100 yards. That size group won't win any awards but it's a good starting point. I think 0.4” and below is excellent.

If we are talking military shooting in the Modified Scope class I think 1.7” 10 shot groups at 100 should be classed as good, 1.5” as excellent and 1.3 (and below)” as exceptional.

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linoww posted this 07 January 2008

What do you consider to be good accuracy with a cast bullet?

What type of rifle or handgun do you consider to give the best accuracy?

What load do you use to get the best accuracy?

With a standard sporting rifle in 30 caliber with a good bore up to 300 WinMag.capacity I think 1.5 MOA is a realistic goal..I usuallly use 2400 or 4759 and get this fairly easy.I use the RCBS 180 SP for most loads for this stuff.I try to get the velocity to a bit above 1600 for either powder.

With a heavy Varmint production class gun without any throating,but bumping or tapering I think 3/4 MOA is a goal that can be had in some guns,but not all.I have had  equally good luck with Savage or Remingtons in 308. I  cant understand how Mike Mohler gets his Ruger .243 to shoot such small groups!! I also am having decent luck with 1-12 twist 22-250 Savage rifles with cast bullets.I can get the Savage 12 BVSS to average 3/4” or a tad below for 4 five shot groups at 100 in good conditions(sometimes).My 308's seem to shoot 18.5 W296 great  (I never go much above or below this charge with this powder and have found it to be safe in my guns) The 22-250 likes 4759,5744 or 2400 equally well. The RCBS 180 sp,Eagan MX3-30 ARD in the 308 and the Eagan MX3-22's or an LBT 60Sp tapered bullet in the 22's.I shoot the 308's at 1800 fps or so and the 22's at 2200 fps.

I havnt played with my heavy stuff as seriously lately but when I do I expect to see many 1/2” groups at 100 and  under 1.25” at 200 much of the time(5 shot groups).This is a 30 BR sleeved Remington 700.Scott 3032 or 4198 work for me with the RCBS 180 Sp again being a good bullet if not just a bit to light for 200 yd work.Velocites in the 2000fps range with each load.

 

With a plinker load such as plainbase 30-06 shooting,30 -30 levers, Ruger #1 357 Mag pistol and rifle bullets,7.62 x 39 Boltguns or S.S.'s with plainbase I am happy with 2 MOA.In the 30-30 levers I get a bit larger groups on the whole,but still acceptable. As long as it is consitant and the mold is high production and the powder charge low.Up to 150 yards they are good enough for field plinking.I like 700X for this and I have alot on hand and get it pretty chep at times.My favorite bullet is my 4 cavity SAECO #630 in  the.30's.  It is a plainbase FN of about 140 grains.The 357 shoots any pistol bullet well at short range,but seems to prefer most RN bullets over Keith type designs by a touch.The Lyman 358311,358212 and H&G #17 are good designs.At 100 and beyond the RCBS 250 SP is the top choice but I have to taper the  oversized nose in a 218 Bee seating die to get the bullet out of the case.With 13.0 W296 it has shot as small as 1.25” at 100 a few times and averages under 2 MOA at 100 almost all of the time.Hits steel gongs pretty hard too!!

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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CB posted this 07 January 2008

George I usually get about the same as you with my 12bvss, some days a little smaller than 3/4MOA.

I am interested in the 357 Mag rifle loads. I just picked up a NEF with a 357 Mag barrel and a 44 Mag barrel to plink with and see how accurate I can get it to shoot (remember that discussion on how those types of rifles are inherently inaccurate?)

In either of my 06's I think 1.5 MOA is good considering one is a pump and the other is my shot out F class gun.

When I can pry the heavy gun away from the wife, I can get it to shoot 1/2 MOA most of the time.

I use about the same bullets as you, that 180sp is a great little bullet and I got an Eagan mx2 that makes a shorter version of the MX4-30-ARD bullet that works real good in the 06's.

So tell me, did you win the bid on that MX4-30-ARD cherry?? I was watching that one. Almost thought about jumpin in the fray, but I saw it was you and let it be.. I was thinking about trying to get a multiple cavity mould cut..

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RicinYakima posted this 08 January 2008

357 Mag rifle loads:

RCBS 200 grains FP, without gascheck, works well with 3.0 grains of 700X for a quiet plinking load. Or the same bullet with 10.0 grains of A2400 for a full field load.

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CB posted this 08 January 2008

You guys are probably gonna think I have been dippin in the brown jug, but, I am seriously thinking about using the NEF 357 Mag as an off hand gun... Just because I don't see anyone else doing it...

I want to see for myself if one of these can be made to shoot accurately enough to be competitive. I plan on shooting it plain base so it won't be blazing fast. I am working on slugging the throat to get something Veral can work from and using a push through slug to get the nominal groove dia and determine twist rate.

I see a need to make a forum to deal with “special projects” such as this! It should be fun!

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linoww posted this 08 January 2008

So tell me, did you win the bid on that MX4-30-ARD cherry?? I was watching that one. Almost thought about jumpin in the fray, but I saw it was you and let it be.. I was thinking about trying to get a multiple cavity mould cut.

Yes I did and it will be going to Old West next month to make a three cavity for myself.I will give all aheads up when the cherriy is there.I have there others wanting one.

 

Geo.

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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linoww posted this 08 January 2008

Jeff Bowles wrote: You guys are probably gonna think I have been dippin in the brown jug, but, I am seriously thinking about using the NEF 357 Mag as an off hand gun... Just because I don't see anyone else doing it...

I want to see for myself if one of these can be made to shoot accurately enough to be competitive. I plan on shooting it plain base so it won't be blazing fast. I am working on slugging the throat to get something Veral can work from and using a push through slug to get the nominal groove dia and determine twist rate.

I see a need to make a forum to deal with “special projects” such as this! It should be fun!

I have had the same thought,but will go with one in .444 if I find one.I hear the barrels are better than before.I love my Ruger #1 357 and have a #3 forend with a bit of lead(for balance) in it for offhand work.It is a 1-"A” barrel and is pretty darn light for offhand,but the NEF's balance real nice.

Joe Gifford a guy newer on the board just made a .32 mag NEF from a 12ga shotgun  by sleeving it with a 1-10” take off 30-06 barrel.It also would be a nice offhand gun.

 

George

 

Geo.

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Ed Harris posted this 09 January 2008

I've long since burned out on and drifted away from competition shooting and care little for it anymore. I feel that most of it is contrived and bears no relation to reality. My needs are simple and “agricultural” to borrow the late Frank Marshall's term.

If a pistol, revolver or rifle isn't suited to carry on a walk in the woods or mountains, I have little use for it. So, if a cast bullet load provides safe, economical and reliable service which approximates that of factory ammunition from the firearm of interest, I'm happy.

I'm not seeking one-hole, sub-minute of angle ten-ring and x-ring. The basic requirement is that any useful load must shoot more accurately and farther than I can see with the unaided naked eye.

A pistol or revolver load should deliver groups no worse than one-inch-per-ten yards for casual shooting and practice to equal Franks “Ball Ammo” accuracy standard. To be considered accurate enough for “Small Game and Camp Meat” the expectation is to hit a target the size of a squirrel's or grouse's head, at a range suitable for the gun of choice with whatever sights are on it.

For an iron-sighted handgun, the range at which a fair handgun shot can see well enough to make humane head shots on small game is about 25 yards or so. Any pistol, revolver or light walking rifle load which shoots reliable inch groups at 25 yards pretty much on demand, any time with iron sights is simply splendid.

For a utility hunting rifle the standard of performance is how far you can safely identify legal game under field conditions and make clean kills with well placed body shots. It makes no real difference here whether you are talking about deer, turkey, woodchuck, coyote, etc.

A “clay pigeon” is about 4 inches in diameter. It is a readily obtained, iron-sight or low powered hunting hunting scope practice target which approximates the vital area of a game animal. Using plain iron sights and typical lever action rifles, any load capable of placing 4 inch groups on target at 100 yards would put lots of meat on the table. Military bolt actions meet this standard rather handily and are deemed serviceable for combat.

For sporting weight small game or varmint rifles normally used with a scope of less than 6 power, carried and shot from typical field positions the 4-inch grouping range extends to about 150 yards, unless you are a shooter of above average skill.   

For a heavy caliber big game rifle the 4-inch group benchmark gets pushed out to about 200 yards.  A two-minute rifle will do the job in the vast majority of cases.

For a heavy-barreled varmint or miliary sniper rifle using service ammo the 4-inch benchmark gets pushed out to 300 yards or meters. That's reality.

All of you guys who expect half minute groups from your woodchuck rifles at 600 yards should measure the ranges of your actual shots with a surveyor's transit, and either get real and go shoot at Camp Perry.

Just my two cents. Feel free to disagree. 8-)

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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CB posted this 09 January 2008

Ed Harris wrote: I've long since burned out on and drifted away from competition shooting and care little for it anymore. I feel that most of it is contrived and bears no relation to reality. My needs are simple and “agricultural” to borrow the late Frank Marshall's term.

All of you guys who expect half minute groups from your woodchuck rifles at 600 yards should measure the ranges of your actual shots with a surveyor's transit, and either get real and go shoot at Camp Perry.

Ed Do I detect a bit of cynicism in your voice?

Perhaps I should of qualified my question a bit more...

I know the whole world does not revolve around competitive shooting, there is a great number of people that just like to go out and plink or hunt or shoot acorns out of oak trees on a walk through the woods.

Personally I like to do all of that and I enjoy competitive shooting also. Not so much to see if I can do better than the fellow on the next bench, but there is a social aspect I enjoy also.

For many there is an instintual need to strive to be the best that you can be. I share that need with many others. This leads to experimentation and development of new methods, equipment and designs to acheive better accuracy. This may not be everyone's cup of tea, but there is no reason everyone should'nt be able to benefit from it.

I guess the whole point is this, To have fun doing what you like to do.

I plan on going and having some fun tomorrow!B)

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linoww posted this 09 January 2008

All of you guys who expect half minute groups from your woodchuck rifles at 600 yards should measure the ranges of your actual shots with a surveyor's transit, and either get real and go shoot at Camp Perry.

 

Did you think my accuracy expectations were not honest?? I know if it is a pistol i sure cant shoot alot of 1” groups anymore with my astignitism.Thats why I gave no pistol loads.

We have a genleman in our club who was 3 time IHMSA World Champ and helped design a few Freedon Arms & Browning guns.He makes such accuracy claims,but I have of yet seen the representative consistant groups at the range.I myself am happy with easy to assemble 2MOA  riflel oads.Even if I get a few “leekers” as long as most of the core grouping go true it's better than I can do offhand.

 

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Ed Harris posted this 09 January 2008

Jeff, linoww, et al

Yes, I confess that I've grown cynical. But no offense is intended or taken. All have right to their opinions and adults should cheerfully disagree. All makes for lively discussion.

Those who enjoy bench shooting and can afford their expensive toys are welcome to their fun. I was one of them once.

I have observed that the temptation is overwhelming to want to accept as “normal” those wonderful random variations of chance, the “fluke groups” which, of course are not typical. Then, there are the very few, extremely talented and lucky, and indeed there truly are some, who can actually do it on demand, any time they want.

I salute them. They shall enjoy their youth and skill as long as it lasts.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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CB posted this 09 January 2008

I used to hot rod cars back in the late 60s and 70s, muscle car era. I then motocrossed in the mid and late 70s. I just love to tune, tweak, modify, blue print, adjust, adapt and convert the cars and dirt bikes to squeeze everybit of performance out a them I could get. When I used to ride a motorcycle, it was always wide open or on the brakes, going 120mph routinely(with my street bike). I accredit that behaviour to flow into my cb shooting, continually striving for something better in accuracy. When I shoot 1” groups, I then want 3/4". When I hit 3/4", I then want 1/2", then .3". I find punching one-hole .5” groups just a blast!

I'm not much on competition either Ed, but its a way to see where you are at among similar shooters. I never drag raced pro, but did a lota highway drags. I never won a motocross race, but sure had fun beating and bashing the dirt bike all over the track!

From my observations on CBA NT competition:

Production Class to compete 1"-.7” groups, top five places .5"-.3"groups 

HVY, UNR, and PBB to compete .6"-.3", top five places .2” and better groups

CBA Military Rifle to win: Mod Scope .7", Mod Iron and Issue .8"-1"

1/2 MOA = Great prairie dog shots!

HAPPINESS  Me in 1977 Yamaha 400YZ POWER! One-hole Groups WHATA BLAST!

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 09 January 2008

Jeff Bowles wrote: You guys are probably gonna think I have been dippin in the brown jug, but, I am seriously thinking about using the NEF 357 Mag as an off hand gun... Just because I don't see anyone else doing it... ....

I spent the 115 $ for a factory installed .357 mag barrel for my SB2 NEF frame.

You will find that in THAT caliber there is about 3/4” wide open tapered hole ( I hesitate to use the word 'throat' ) between the end of the case and the start of the rifling.  Tapered enough so's you can't get a breech seater in close enough to the rifling and long enough so the bullet is not supported AT ALL after leaving the end of the case!

My next try at accuracy with that barrel is to rechamber it to .357 Max to get a little closer to a SAAMI chamber.

SHOULD be a lot of fun if I can ever get it to shoot right.

I'd like MOA at 100 yards, but will settle now for minute-of-beercan.

 

 

 

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CB posted this 09 January 2008

Uh, would that be an empty or full bear can?

I shot it sunday with some “loads” ( I use that term loosely) that were given to me at an indoors rage and it did fairly well about 1” at 25 yards. That was with a hunk of 4x4 for a rest. I plan to shoot it tomorrow at 50 yards and see how it does. I got a 44 mag barrel for it if the 357 does prove out well. I will have to look down the pipe and see if I can see the big open place you are describing..

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delmarskid1 posted this 10 January 2008

I like a cast bullet load that makes the jacket bullet guy go, “You did that with a cast bullet?” That gives me a bunch of satisfaction. It doesn't matter if they are shooting a good varmint gun or whatever else. It is just the gratification of knowing that someone is impressed by a load that I made up using left-over car tire stuff and Czechoslavakian army surplus powder that can make them pay attention. That is my definition of good cast bullet accuracy. I don't always get to shoot that well but I do get to shoot a LOT!

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linoww posted this 10 January 2008

Ed Harris wrote-

Then, there are the very few, extremely talented and lucky, and indeed there truly are some, who can actually do it on demand, any time they want.

 

I went out with Ric Bowmans buddy Joe to shoot his .32 Mag bunny gun yesterday.Brought my 1903 Springer with A lyman 48 that never shoots over 2” at 100 for 5 shots.Well... except for yesterday<G> On demand,no.Often when i am at alone with no pressure ,yup.I did the old “change the load last minute"deal to really get it shooting.Shuld have stayed with 16.5 of 2400,18.5 opened up the groups about 1” at 100.I was getting “tippers” at 100 with the long Eagan MX30-US bullet and though it needed more velocity.Round holes,but bad groups,go figure.Back to square one!!

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Ed Harris posted this 11 January 2008

delmarskid1 wrote: I like a cast bullet load that makes the jacket bullet guy go, “You did that with a cast bullet?” That gives me a bunch of satisfaction. It doesn't matter if they are shooting a good varmint gun or whatever else. It is just the gratification of knowing that someone is impressed by a load that I made up using left-over car tire stuff and Czechoslavakian army surplus powder that can make them pay attention. That is my definition of good cast bullet accuracy. I don't always get to shoot that well but I do get to shoot a LOT!

Bingo! Yup!

 8-)

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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linoww posted this 11 January 2008

I am glad to see your hobby area looking much like mine.Our current house was purchased because it had a 24 x 30 shop detached from the house.It's “my world” and the wife cant say a thing.it look slike you have the same brand of fluxing tool i do.

 

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Ed Harris posted this 11 January 2008

Yup, and here's what it looks like when I flux a 50 lb. melt during an ingot run! It looks worse here than it really is because the box fan is blowing the smoke cloud raised prior to flaring the flux towards the camera.   Once it lights off no new smoke is generated.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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linoww posted this 11 January 2008

You also have the same fan stand that i use.I got the neighboor into casting for his 357 and 45 colt.We took a 5 gallon bucket of w/w and batched it up.His first time seeing the flash from fluxing I knew he was hooked.We just used motor oil as I forgot my NEI flux.I think it worked as well as anything.My dad said it's what they used in the print shot to flux the lino before re-ingoting.

Geo.

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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