Why Steam Cylinder Oil?
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- Last Post 30 August 2016
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Thank you Steve!
That is the most complete explanation I have ever seen for the non-chemist bullet caster who wishes to play with lube formulae. I think the most important thought is that “slippery” does not make a bullet lube. Lubes don't work by reducing bullet friction.
Ric
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I'd like to echo Ric's applause. Steve's explanation of the importance of polarity in bullet lubricants is very clear, and something I don't recall hearing mentioned before.
However, Steve's treatise mentioned (in passing) that tallow was in short supply during WWII because it was used to make explosives. I looked up smokeless powder, and found no mention of tallow as one of the ingredients. I'm wondering if it was used in the process of making explosives (because of it's polarity) rather than as an ingredient.
I was around during WWII (Merchant Marine Radio Officer during the last part of that scrap) and I don't recall tallow being something critical to the war effort.
Now I'm curious. How was tallow used in the manufacturer of explosives?
Wes
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in our racing 2-strokes we found castor oil to be the best ( and most messy..it didn't burn and stinks ) ....in our high solvent alcohol and nitro-methane fuel .
i wonder if would retain its magic as a bullet ” lube ” component ?
i still have a little of our imported variation if someone wants to play . we used 1/3 of drugstore per centage ...
it is from the castor bean, not from beaver body parts ( g ) ...
ken
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Interesting essay, well worth the time to read. Also tells me about the lubrication of the steam cylinders on the old live steam locomotives; obviously they used some different oil for the steam cylinders form what they used on the Timken bearing boxes on the cars. My Dad used to be a fireman on the B $ O rr; I sure wish he was still around to tell me about it. In Oct. I'm going to be riding a live steam-powered train; I'll try to talk to the engineer about the lubrication oils used. (If possible to do so; dunno, I just might not ever see him.) Bill
In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.
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Ah, yes, Ken; good old Bakers AA Castor.....In WW 1 the rotary engines used on some fighters were lubed with castor oil which wasn't't burned, but carried back in the pilot's face by the exhaust and slipstream.The word was that the pilots needed no further help in staying “regular” if you get my drift. Bill
In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.
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Wes,
Tallow is used in making glycerin, as in nitroglycerin. By the end of the war, we had pretty much converted to TNT (trinitrotoluene). Thus to Composition B used in bombs and shells. Engineers still used dynamite and a wide variety of explosives all through the war, but for specific uses. They didn't require that much nitroglycerin based material. Ten tons a month was probably enough even with the CB's using so much in the Pacific theater.
Ric
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Charles Dell's book THE MODERN SCHUETZEN RIFLE
The chapter on Bullet Lube he believed bullet lubes that were polar in make-up were best.
He used castor oil in some of his lubes.
I believe the late Felix Robbins (Felix Lube) was based on one of Charlies formula's .
------J
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Ric is right, Tallow is an ester of glycerol and fatty acids. The fatty acids in tallow are mostly steric acid. When tallow is reacted with lye you get sodium stearate which is soap and glycerol. The glycerol can be reacted with nitric acid to give nitroglycerin. (Kids do not try this at home!) Now dynamite and blasting gelatin are just a step away, but this use is small. The primary use in the war was making smokeless powder for rifles, artillery and rockets. The use of double base powder in the war was in the millions of pounds. By WWII a process was developed to make glycerol from petroleum, so the big need for tallow vanished. Steve
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Another way to get glycerol was to add Bisulfite (Sulfur Dioxide) in large amounts to yeast fermentation's. Normally you get Ethanol (alcohol) from sugar (I love this business) but the Bisulfite changes the metabolism and you get glycerol. As stated above Nitric and Sulfuric acids, plenty of ice and gentle stirring, presto Nitroglycerin. It took Alfred Nobel (the prize guy) to figure out how to mix it with Diatomaceous earth (pool filter aid) also called Kieselgur, to make it stable for Dynamite. If you want a really interesting compound, look up Picric Acid. Chemically like TNT but just different enough. It was a favorite of the Japanese and Scuba diving on a Japanese wreck that has live ammo still on board is very hazardous. It does not age well and it can be very grumpy as it gets older.
Dave
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I've never been able to find a significant accuracy difference with differences in reasonable lubricants. I've asked before, and I'll ask again. Does anyone have or know of a report of significant accuracy differences between bullet lubes? Steam Cylinder Oil, along with Mutton Tallow, are in the Pope lube recipe. Why discriminate against mutton tallow? Are we drilling down into the minutiae here? Just, as they say, asking. joe b.
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And I'll tell you again Joe, there aren't any “significant accuracy differences” among bullet lubes. If it doesn't make lead stick to the bore, it is a good lube. Ric
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A note............. One has to be able to shoot very small groups to see differences when changing components. Following the crowd usually doesn't get you there. Minutia does sometimes, provided you pick the path (one that matches components to load) that delivers the goods. Can you shoot under 1/2 MOA? If you can, then you will start to see some items of interest when you change things around. Give it some thought, there are significant accuracy differences that can happen.... with lubes, alloy choice/hardness, loads, case shape etc.
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Many lubricants will provide freedom from leading and accurate shooting in low pressure, low velocity loads. Any difference in accuracy can be so small it is only possible to detect using a machine or bench rest, several hundred shots and statistical analysis. Only really poor lubricants, this includes some of my 'great ideas", will be bad enough to easily see a difference. The real test comes as pressure and velocity go up, bullet fit is neglected, or bore condition is poor. Here we can begin to separate out the good lubricants. Here there can be a differences between rifles, pistols and revolvers, your gun and my gun. Here the differences between good lubricants depends on the shooting conditions, the particular gun and load and may be small enough to take a lot of careful shooting to show it. Buy a good commercial lube and be happy. Avoid experimenting and especially homemade lubricants - insanity lurks there. Steve
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What Steve said. I don't see anybody shooting at matches under 1/2 MOA on demand, in any class. Keyboard groups do not count.
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What Steve said. I don't see anybody shooting at matches under 1/2 MOA on demand, in any class. Keyboard groups do not count.
:dude:
Whether or not any shooting is done in front of you doesn't count for beans. Said things happen whether you witness them / believe them or not. The CBA doesn't have a large following in the shooting world. There has been a lot said on this forum about stagnation in progress........ and you wonder why. Just keep up what you're doing and see whether you see improvement or not.
Addition: As far as your statement about “anybody shooting under 1/2 MOA” groups, nothing was said about on demand nor whether they were 5 or 10 shots....... But if you check the national records on this site, they're a bunch of them listed in both 5 and 10 shot. The clue being the ability to produce them so you are actually able to discern what changes actually control.
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And I'll tell you again Joe, there aren't any “significant accuracy differences” among bullet lubes. If it doesn't make lead stick to the bore, it is a good lube. Ric
Except for one. Guarantees under 1/2 MOA 10 shot groups. It's based on snake-oil.
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I don't understand, please explain.
Thanks;
joe b.And I'll tell you again Joe, there aren't any “significant accuracy differences” among bullet lubes. If it doesn't make lead stick to the bore, it is a good lube. Ric
Except for one. Guarantees under 1/2 MOA 10 shot groups. It's based on snake-oil.
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45 2.1, Sorry, I think we are miss-communicating. "The clue being the ability to produce them so you are actually able to discern what changes actually control." That is my point, exactly. I don't see anyone doing that. I have National Records with the CBA, and they are combinations of groups that I can not reproduce on demand. Also shot a 0.550” group with an '03 Springfield at the Nationals once (2014). Records are fun to shoot and all, but not relevant to research, at least in my opinion. As for people who don't shoot in front of unbiased folks? Too easy to forget the bad groups; I pulled that shot it doesn't count, etc. Match shooting with the CBA is about shooting small groups or precision shooting into the X ring. Lots of people say they can shoot faster bullets, but they aren't playing the CBA game. Best wishes, Ric
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...The real test comes as pressure and velocity go up, bullet fit is neglected, or bore condition is poor. Here we can begin to separate out the good lubricants. Here there can be a differences between rifles, pistols and revolvers, your gun and my gun. Here the differences between good lubricants depends on the shooting conditions, the particular gun and load and may be small enough to take a lot of careful shooting to show it. ...
Steve
Is this an opinion, or do you have any data? Which lubes fail and which work at what pressures, what velocities, what incorrect bullet fit, what bore condition? Do you have any data showing the differences in accuracy as lubes are varied? Do you know of any? Thanks; joe b.
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Joe,I have data on my guns, one 308 would give ~100 FS more velocity with LBT blue than ALOX 50/50 and hold 1inch groups. Another 308 found the ALOX more to its liking. If I reduced the velocity I could see no difference, both are great lubes. Making a blanket statement on which is the best lube is not possible. Even if I had 100 guns and an unlimited budget it would mean little. Look at the number of different lubes in the top 20% of CBA match results. All of those lubes would be worth trying to find the best one for your gun, provided it has a good bore. As for the rough bore old military guns, I would try moderate moderate velocity and Liquid ALOX first then regular ALOX 50/50, after that ???. My experience with dark bores is limited. Some of the other members who like shooting guns with some history may have some ideas about lubes and getting an old warhorse to shoot. Steve
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