How Much Gun

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Mnshooter posted this 18 August 2007

While talking to a sporting goods clerk I used to shoot with, we got going on how powerful of rifles modern shooters seem to think they need.  He had a call from a customer that wondered if 200 grain bullets in his .338 would be good enough for deer as he had run out of his usual 250 grain loads.  The store clerk had shot a few deer with a .357 magnum rifle.   I find myself as guilty as any.  I traded off a perfectly good 38-55 for a 45-70 because I felt the 45-70 would do a better job and have regretted it since, as I would have a hard time finding another rifle like it and probably would have to spend far more than the original price to get one.  I have been working on 215 grain bullet loads for a 8mm Turkish Mauser because of that same mentality, when I have an excellent load for my 303 British and a 30-30, both of which will adequately harvest deer.  Dead is an absolute, you cannot make a game animal deader. 

Some, like Daryl, obviously enjoy shooting big guns, and I am not critisizing them for that enjoyment.  A larger caliber in the hands of a good shot has certain advantages such as better blood trails and possibly more knockdown power.  Also, if there is a chance of running into a Grizzly or Brown bear it may give a certain sense of comfort.  On knockdown power I am not so sure.  In my younger days, an experienced hunter told me that if a deer is shot in an opening it will probably run to cover, regardless of what it is shot with. (This is shots to the lungs, not broken shoulders spines, etc.)  If it is 100 yards form cover it will run 100 yards, if 20 probably 20yards.  My experiences seem to verify that this is generally true in that most will run to cover before dropping. 

Just thought it would be fun to hear others experiences and thoughts.

Mnshooter 

 

   

 

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454PB posted this 19 August 2007

I don't hunt deer anymore, but still hunt elk. I can only recall one deer of the many I shot that required any more than a 30/30, and that was distance, not killing power.

I had a couple of bad experiences shooting elk with a too small gun, and switched to either a .338 Win. Magnum or .300 Win. Magnum as a result. Elk are a very tough animal, and will soak up shots that would drop a deer instantly. Yes, I know lots of hunters kill lots of elk with everything from .243's to .270's using one well placed shot. However, those perfect position shots are rare in my experience. I've always said I walked up 500 miles of mountain for every elk I shot, and I'm guilty of taking “less than perfect” shots like running through timber or straight up the rectum. I can tell you a 210 grain .338 Nosler partition will penetrate the full length of an elk's body and destroy the vitals. On the other hand, I shot a spike in the ear at 50 yards with a .308 Winchester 165 grain bullet, elk went down, then jumped up and required another shot. I for one want a big gun for these guys.

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Mnshooter posted this 21 August 2007

Obviously not everyone is comfortable hunting with cast bullets. Hunting loads in cast bullets, as a rule, do not go much above 2000 fps. As Ed Harris pointed out the 30 calibers may match a 30-40 Krag if heavy bullets are used. The good news is that the 30-40 has gotten a lot of game, including an elk that held the world record for some time.
There are calibers that seem to be good choices for normal hunting and shooting on game animals. Adapting cast bullets to certain calibers seems to be the problem. My 270 performed very well with a 130 gr bullet at about 3000. I do not hunt with cast bullets with that rifle due to a lack of selection and the fact that it is overbored for that pupose. Currently I am shooting old bolt action military rifles that seem to work well for deer. For the larger game it seems the big bores start to come in. There does not seem to be a lot of calibers available that are practical in between. Maybe if they made a 300 grain gas check for a 375 H & H or similar for other cartridges one could start duplicating some of the excellent old black powder cartridges in 38 and 40 caliber.

Mnshooter

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Scott Merchant posted this 21 August 2007

Mnshooter     I have been taking deer with cast bullets for close to 30 years. I would like to tell you that I have all the answers but its not so. The first deer where taken with a round ball, but I think this is more about cartridge loaded bullets. One of the first guns used was 45/70 in a Sharps, the bullet was a Lee 405 grain hollow point. The alloy was WW at a Mv 1350 fps, On shooting the Deer it would normally run up to 100 yards, so much for Knock Down Powder. After a number of deer shot with the Lee 405 HP I bought a book called Modern American Rifles by A.C.Gould copy righted in 1892. There I learned that the old timers had some of the same problems. I say some because I believe that we shoot animals different than they did. We have a habit to shoot for the lungs hence to save meat damage, account we learned to hunt with High Velocity rifles. The older literature takes about shooting for the front shoulder, which would brake down the animal stopping it from running off. At the velocity they shot 1200 fps to 1600 fps blood splattering the meat was not a big problem.      Next I purchased a Lyman 330 grain Gould mould. Talk about Thor Hammer it was like instantaneous death, Lungs where completely jelled. The alloy I used 1 part tin to 20 parts pure lead over 75 grain 3f black powder. After a number of deer where harvested with this load the results stayed the same no run off's. I would like to tell you what the bullet expanded to but to date I have never recovered one. Later I purchased a RCBS 45-300-FN cast 1 to 20 it performs the same on game and its easier to cast with on account it's not a hollow point and it has 2 cavities. I do have a bullet recovered from a nice Buck that I shoot with it. The bullet passed though the deer and embedded it self into the dirt. I was all most as happy to recover the bullet as getting the deer, it measureed .670 and had only lost 12 grain weight.       On to smaller caliber rifles. I have only shot deer with 30 caliber's and larger mostly because the bullet moulds offered for caliber's smaller than 30 have a round or semi pointed nose. The moulds I use the most are Lyman 311041, Saeco 305, The 311041 I use in the 30-30 and two groove 1903A3s with velocities between 1750 fps to 1950 fps. The Saeco 305 work well in the Marlin Micro Groove barrels, pushed thru a Lee push up die . 309 at 1850 fps. Also I use it in 4 groove 30 caliber barrels again pushed thru a Lee . 311 and a homemade .310 push up die for velocities up to 2000 fps, It also works as cast in a Savage #4 mark 1  6 grove that I have. The effect on deer shot with the 30 caliber's is that they recovered with in 0 to 30 yards 90% of the time. I have yet to recover a 30 caliber bullet on a deer kill, I once laid in a picked corn field watching about 20 deer feed. I had a late season doe only tag to fill and what I wanted to do is recover a bullet. It was not to be when a big mature doe presented a head on shot, I placed the bullet perfectly in the center of the chest after which she tumbled over backwards regained her feet than collapsed on the spot. After field dress her it was found that the bullet had passed thru the entire body exiting in back of her right hip, the bullet had caused a lot of damage to the organs       I have also had kills with 33 thru 44 caliber weapons They all worked fine but again I use a flat nose bullet. I have talked to guys that use round nose bullets such as 311291 but it seems that they all have the common remark that if you shoot it into the neck or shoulder it works fine. I hate to say more as I have not tried the round nosed bullet on game but I want to able to use the all of the kill area of the deer and know it will work. And it not about shooting ability its that you mite not get the shoulder shot but the lung shot is there.      Hope I have not rattled on to long    Scott

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Mnshooter posted this 22 August 2007

The first deer I ever shot with a cast bullet was with a Gould hollowpoint. The deer reacted like I stated earlier and ran off the field and dropped at the edge of the woods. Both Matthews and Mike Venturino have mentioned that the Gould may not give enough penetration in large deer. Matthews experience was with smokeless, likely pushing it too fast. You have never recovered one at 1-20 and mine went straight through. BP Loads. The 45-70 is a fantastic cast bullet cartridge that will perform about as well as one wants it to depending on your shoulder and the bullets you choose. As I mentioned, I have been shooting mil surps lately and started using cast to save the barrels. I got a load for the Turkish mauser using a sized down Lee 329 bullet at 210 grains more or less to go at over 2000 with good accuracy. Now I have to make a front sight to make it shoot low enough to use if I want to use it. The metal was sound, but it is not really a collectable.
You are correct on shot placement. I have been brainwashed into shooting behind the shoulder (most of my deer through the years with the 270) will have to try a shoulder shot next time. With cast bullets we are essentially trying to adapt to jacketed bullet technology which came along about the same time as smokeless powder. We have to accept that we will have to get closer and use different techniques altogether.

Mnshooter

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Mnshooter posted this 20 September 2007

I have noticed in other topics that many shooters are using lighter 30 bullets and pushing them at 1800 and over. I would think that a bullet like the 210 grain 311284 would make a great bullet cast out of softer lead and pushed between 1400-1600. Alloys such as 1-20 and 1-16 hardness can be pushed at these speeds with gas checks. Ranges seem to be limited to little over 100 yards with any of the loads. A flat nose can be made easily ith a flat nose bullet punch. A heavy bullet of this nature may perform as well as a lighter one of harder alloy thats need to be driven at highr velocities.

Mnshooter

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giorgio de galleani posted this 20 September 2007

Dear MNSHOOTER,do not be carried away by this idea of "you  cannot kill them deader than dead ” and shooting light small caliber bullets.

Being an old phisician and wild boar shooter I have my strong opinions,I want them dead at once and very near  the place  they are shot lest I loose them in the thick woods I hunt them in.

You  absolutely need a big hole and complete penetration with cast bullets.Cast bullets are not Nosler partitions .I believe cast bullet expansion is not reliable.

And paramount is bullet placement if you hit the spinal cord the aorta or the upper part of the heart you are shure to put meet in the freezer,if your deer runs 100 or 200 yds sombody else can get it.

I too had a 38-55 Winchester 94 ,I sold it becuse it had no safety button and feared it made too little holes.

I use a 45/70 Marlin guide gun with LBT wide noses at 1250 fps at woods  range.

And practice a lot. 

I reckon that caliber used depends from many factors ,elephants were killed with a 7 mm mauser,and I respect other people's opinions, better hunters than me can do great things with the smallbores,I stay with Elmer Keith that used to say:"there is no substitute for caliber,bullet weight  and penetration."

In Italy we say “in bocca al lupo” and you reply “crepi il lupo".Boar seasons opens on september 30,at dawn.

REGARDS Giorgio.

PS I killed a couple of our deer (dama dama) 100 pounds animals with 120 grains Nosler bullets with a scoped 6.5 swede atabout 120 meters,They dropped on their tracks.My english is a bit crude,I know to be dogmatic,but I do not want to be rude. 

 

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Mnshooter posted this 23 September 2007

Giorgio

Deer vary in size across the world and in the U.S. As I understand it, there are areas in the U.S. that have a 100 pound club, where one gets excited about shooting adeer big enough to reach 100 pounds. In the midwest and in Canadian provinces a deer as small as 100 pounds is almost an embarassement. I sent a picture of a yealing doe I had shot to my son when he was stationed in Alabama. One of his sargeants, a local thought it was a “monster deer” It likely weighed slightly over 125 pounds. This being said, using a big bore is hardly ever “wrong” however after over forty years of hunting deer and with early experience party hunting where I saw a lot of deer shot by others with all kinds of calibers, I have arrived at the conclusion that an adequate caliber is one that leaves a good trail for tracking, because unless you disrupt the central nervous system or break down the bone structure as in a shoulder shot, there is NO CALIBER that you can shoot of your shoulder that will CONSISTANTLY drop a deer, especially a larger one, in its tracks. Most of that impressive energy is used up on a tree on the other side of the deer. A friend of my sons bought a 50 BMG single shot and shot about a 175 lb deer with it. He hit it through the ribs and watched it run about 70 yards before dropping. I have also seen deer do the same shot with magnums. It practically had the whole other side of the rib cage blown out. I have seen tremendous internal damage on several deer shot by my 270 with 130 grain bullets. Some went down pretty quick and others ran an amazing distance with a lung cavity that looked like jelly when opened up. My brother in law had excellent luck with about three or four deer in a row with a 6.5 Swede and 140 Winchester factory loads. Then a couple ran a ways on him. If I were hunting in an area where I could lose a deer to another tag I would shoot for the shoulder. Some use hardcast to avoid too much meat damage. Slower moving cast softpoints such as the 200+ grain bullets I mentioned will also break the shoulders of even a large deer. A person I know from way back claimed 26 straight one shot kills with his 30-30. As long as one is careful, and properly places his shots, any reasonable “deer cartridge” will do the job. Good luck, good hunting.

Mnshooter

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Ed Harris posted this 24 September 2007

Something to consider is how quickly the load brings down the deer. While I've killed about a dozen whitetails with cast bullets in the .30-30, most did not drop immediately, but ran a short distance and were found piled up within 50 yards. If you aren't a skilled tracker, and hunt in heavy brush, this could result in a lost animal.

My friend Nick, in South Carolina shoots deer with cast bullets on his own property, but does not have permission to hunt on his next door neighbor's land, so needs animals to drop on the spot. He prefers a .375 or .35 Whelen with 250-275-gr. flatnosed bullet at about 1700 f.p.s. As cast bullet deer rifles the .38-55 and 9.3x72R are as good as it ever got. Heavy, flat-nosed bullets such as the NEI #161A cast 1:20 and driven 1600 f.p.s. in the .357 Magnum also do well if the range is short.

A .50 cal. patched roundball with 100 grs. of blackpowder at about 1800 f.p.s. from a muzzleloading rifle is also very effective.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Mnshooter posted this 25 September 2007

ED, generally, my experiences have been that a deer shot through the lungs will run about 50 yards or so and pile up. Some have dropped like poleaxed steers and others have gone a short ways. The bigger bores assist in the fact that tracking skills do not have to be as finely honed if the woods are sprayed red. All of the loads you have mentioned are good, I am sure. However consider the fact that the old 12Ga Foster slug, one ounce, 71 cal, at 1500 muzzle velocity, when fired up close should knock any thing down pretty quick, it has incredible energy transfer compared to a rifle. Yet I have had to track deer hit with a slug up to about 50 yards (it was not hard) and I am sure that if you talk to anyone that has shot several deer with the old slugs they can state that a few ran a ways. Many go down quicker, but there will be an exception. I remember one deer that ran almost 200 yards after being hit perfectly behind the shoulder. There was no performance problem, as I did not think a deer had that much blood in it, and its internal organs were jelly. The tenacity of a wild animal and its need to get into cover can amaze you. I have one spot I do not need to track, they go into a bunch of fall downs that the wind knocked down and are a real treat to drag out.

Mnshooter.

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Mnshooter posted this 27 September 2007

Somehow I have gotten a little off track and am catching myself preaching basic Minnesota Hunter Education tenants which state that if you cannot perform basic tracking you shouldn't hunt deer as sooner or later you will have to track one. Considering that my daughter at 14 and 15 could track quite well after taking the course, that is not too much to expect. I have shot deer with the 45-70 and the Gould hollow point and plan on doing so again. Saying that a 357 revolver with cast is a good as a 30-30, then someone else saying that a 32-20 is as good as a 357 can start leading to a conclusion that one might as well hunt with a 22 short. There is a point of diminishing returns with the big calibers, but yes, if one can shoot it, bigger is better than too small. One of the things that I did not think of before I started this topic was that of the difference in deer across the country. Where mature large deer weigh a little over 100 pounds, one can get by with less penetration and smaller calibers. The last few years, Minnesota had been trying to thin out the deer herd with anterless permits, in which I could shoot up to five deer a year. In taking advantage of this opportunity, I shoot a few smaller deer that are going on their second winter (lets call them 2 yr olds) because they are quite tasty. A 200 pound buck is a nice deer but nothing to really brag about. A 220 pounder is getting up there in the North Woods. In the corn belt, a 220 pound buck is more common and 250 pounds is not un-heard of. I would think Scot Merchant would run into a few of these in Nebraska. Where a 357 magnum, either in rifle or pistol might be very effective on the 2 yr olds, I would be very picky about that choice on a large buck. Basically, I feel that with cast, a 30 cal is about minimum and that I personally prefer something a little larger. Lately I have been playing with a 215 grain 8mm bullet and a 220 grain load for the Austrain Steyr which is a 33 cal. I have a 185 grain bullet for my 30-30. I mentioned earlier a fondness for the heavier 200 grain 30 cal bullets. In cast, one can drive them as fast as the lighter weights, they will retain better velocity down range, and penetrate deeper on the larger deer and break shoulders. Although, many are saying that they have yet to recover a 170 grain from a deer as they have gone completely through. Were I to pick an absolute minimum deer cartridge, it would be the 357 magnum in either rifle or pistol, and a 45 muzzle loader with round ball. I base this on a little over 40 years of experience hunting with mostly jacketed bullets. I admit that using cast bullets in the smaller bores such as the 30 cal and 8mm is new to me and I am still in the research process.

Mnshooter.

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PJGunner posted this 30 September 2007

I've taken a few deer with the 30-30 and cast bullets loaded to near factory velocity.

Most were with the Lyman 311291, but the last two were with the RCBS 30-180-FN which casts out to 190 gr. in my alloy. I come real close to the old .303 Savage specs with that bullet and the deer I've shot with it didn't go very far. I've always been more of a meat hunter (GASP!) rather than looking for horns so most of the deer taken were not all that big.

However, I'm of a mind to use something with a bit more steam, so I'm starting tp play around with the .358 Win. and .35 Whelen. I'm still trying to find something both the rifles and I like, but heck, that's half the fun. I probably won't get a chance to try it this year due to time constraints, but after my deer season is over this year I'll be back at it again.

I just snagged 600 pounds of free wheel weights and about 90 pounds of pure sheet lead so at least I do have something to work with. Wheel weights in my neck of the desert are drying up fast.

Paul B.

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Ed Harris posted this 01 October 2007

If you blend all of the wheelweights with all of the sheet lead you have and perhaps add NTE 1% tin to the mix in the form of bar solder or what-have-you, you should have a dandy hunting alloy which will stand heat treatment. Cast until uniformly frosted, quench from mould and seat GC in a lube die which does not size, just lube only and it will handle factory .30-30 velocities, no leading, but be ductile, expand and hold together.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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giorgio de galleani posted this 01 October 2007

Though I am  in theese days ambushing wild hogs in the Genoa (Italy) highlands with a 1895 G marlin in 45/70 ,I  played with a Mod 700 Rem. in 35 Whelen .

The whelen gun is made for shooting heavy bullets,more than the 200 or 220 grains handled so well by the  30-06.

Got a Lyman 358009 mould,it casts nice  heavy 290 grain.360 dia  bullets ,they like to be driven at 1600-1700 fps, for stability(1 in 16twist).

shorter and lighter 200 grainers from RCBS or Lyman have under sized noses,and pistol bullets are like shooting 80 grainer in a 30-06.

Good shooting ,Giorgio.

 

 

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Mnshooter posted this 02 October 2007

I have been eyeballing the 35 whelen as a possible cast bullet shooter for some time and would appreciate some feed back on the results. Giorgio's 290 grain combo sounds great to me and is an example of what I think the 35 has for potential. When looking through Cartridges of the World, one sees a lot of obsolete calibers that were designed for cast bullets. The 38-55 and the 32-40 were originally target cartridges and quite light as compared to others. The 32-40 never took the world by storm as a hunting cartridge. The 38-55 is great with smokeless, which I have found out first hand, and is an example of what is probably a better hunting cartridge than the modern ones which are really jacketed bullet technology. If only the 40's were more available. Just a thought. Giorgio, tell us how the 45-70 works on boars.

Mnshooter

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PJGunner posted this 02 October 2007

Mnshooter wrote: I have been eyeballing the 35 whelen as a possible cast bullet shooter for some time and would appreciate some feed back on the results. Giorgio's 290 grain combo sounds great to me and is an example of what I think the 35 has for potential. When looking through Cartridges of the World, one sees a lot of obsolete calibers that were designed for cast bullets. The 38-55 and the 32-40 were originally target cartridges and quite light as compared to others. The 32-40 never took the world by storm as a hunting cartridge. The 38-55 is great with smokeless, which I have found out first hand, and is an example of what is probably a better hunting cartridge than the modern ones which are really jacketed bullet technology. If only the 40's were more available. Just a thought. Giorgio, tell us how the 45-70 works on boars.

Mnshooter

Me too. I found a Lyman #3589 AKA 358009 mold and it cast at 270 gr. in my alloy. A few of us on another site had David Mos duplicate the bullet with a slight flat on the nose which we called the 3589I. Due to lack of time and way too many doctor's appointments, I haven't been able to do as much as I like. Twixt the wife and I, plus the dogs going to the vet's all the time, It's been hectic.

Now, I have to get stuff ready for my upcoming deer hunt so It will probably be late November before I can do any serious work with the .358 and .35 Whelen. I would dearly love to get a good hunting load with either one of those rifles.

I figure either my Ruger 77 or Remington 700 Classic with their 1 in 16” twist might work out. If not, my Mauser with the 1 in 14” twist might be better considering the bullet's weight.

There's a couple of articles by Paco Kelly on the .358 and .35 Whelen using both jacketed and cast bullets. I find his cast bullet data to be interesting. Some of his load data is on the hot side though. You might do a search and see if you can find them. If not, I have them on file.

Paul B.

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giorgio de galleani posted this 08 October 2007

I am a shameless braggart.

Killed a nice yearling 80 pounder yesterday   at 15 yds, chest shot,behind the shoulder,no broken bones,just bilateral pneumotorax and hemophtoe,stone dead after 6 feet.

LBT 400 gr Marlin bullet,following Veral 's load instructions.

Italian BOAR season ends on Christmas or till we kill 7250 pigs in our hunting territory,whichever comes first,

Regards,Giorgio

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CB posted this 08 October 2007

Hey Giorgio that's great!

Thanks for letting us know (not just bragging). That big 400gr CB sure did its job. Keep us up to date on Italian hunting adventures...............Dan

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Tom Acheson posted this 09 October 2007

Hi Giorgio,

Never have shot a deer with a cast bullet in a rifle. But I have taken (21) Mule Deer in Wyoming (since 1982) and ALL were shot with iron sighted revolvers with 8"+ barrels chambered in .41 Mag or my own “wildcat” .41 Wyoming, ALL using .411” sized cast bullets. The .41 Mag uses a 296-grain bullet at 1200-fps and the 41 Wyoming uses a 323-grain bullet at about 1100-fps. Moulds are Hoch nose-pour design with gas checks. Alloy is 100% wheelweight. Bullets do have a 1/8” dia. or slightly larger flat on the nose. The one constant with all of these deer was that the entrance and exit hole were all the same size---small, no expnasion and after being hit they didn't go off to die, they did it where they were hit by the bullet. Shooting distances varied from 8-feet to 125-yards but the wound sizes have always been similar as noted. The average field dressed weight is approximately 140-pounds but the largest was 212-pounds. The only deer I've taken in Minnesota (41 Wyoming) behaved the same way after being hit. I guess I'm a beliver in large slow bullets for cast bullet deer hunting. Wyoming for many years required a minimum remaining energy of 500-foot pounds at 100-yards to be a legal handgun load for deer. It's hard to find a factory .357 load that performs up to that level.

Not trying to brag here but I wnated to add comments about the use of cast bullets on deer. Judging by the way the animals reacted when hit, that flat nosed bullet must be imparting a lot of high impact energy to their body as bullet expansion is not producing huge wound channels to expedite bleeding, etc.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Tom

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Mnshooter posted this 29 October 2007

Tom My experiences with bigger bores has been limited on deer to only a few. However when i used a handgun on varmits and other smaller game I noticed that a bigger bore seemed to be more abrupt than a 357 magnum even though the magnum had good expansion. The critters seemed to just topple over and go limp. Some of the loads you use are similar to the old 40 cal BPC rifle loads, which were popular in their day. I would love to be able to afford making up a 40-70 straight (one can use 30-40 Krag or 303 British as a case to form them) in a rifle to adapt to smokeless powder as I agree with you in that cast bullet technology lends itself to slower loads with heavier bullets. Also one is generally limited to under 200 yards in range. Handguns and the old BPCs are of a technology more favoring of cast bullets.
I also suspect that a lot of the reason I see deer run is that most of those that have run, have run off fields, as stated earlier that seems to be the norm. Usually they are found just within cover. Northern Minesota gives meaning to the word brush. Bear are hunted over bait. Deer are either ambushed up close in the brush or shot off fields, usually early morning or before dark. Those shot in the brush tend to go down pretty quick, especially if shot unaware. Those that come out on fields may be a bit nervous on being out of their element which may explain why they go farther. When I used to party hunt I would see driven deer take quite a bit of shooting if not broken down with a shoulder or spine hit. Both of us could tell “war stories” to prove a point and I suspect both of us are right if we know the situations.

Mnshooter

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Southern Man posted this 02 November 2007

Hello Guys, I'll chime in on the flat nose round nose thing a bit. I know just a few critters does'nt always tell the whole story , but what Elmer Keith Knew in the 1920's , I've had to be hard headed and learn for myself.Round nose cast bullets have a harder time staying their course in heavy game, or at longer ranges, when they start running low on energy, than flat nose,and the bigger and heavier the flat nose the better , if you can handle the recoil enough to practice a lot. I shot a 2022# bison with my Sharps,45-70 @ 125 yards using Saeco's 500 grn. Round nose @1400 fps The bullet went in just behind the shoulder and held it's course until it hit the of side shoulder , this is where I got lucky . The bullet turned straight up and cut the Bull's spine. When we halfed him at the slaughter house the saw cut the bullet perfectly in half. That bullet could have went in any direction , and I could have lost that Bull. After that I went to flat nose bullets and my wound channels have stayed true thus far. Southern Man

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