How Much Gun

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Mnshooter posted this 18 August 2007

While talking to a sporting goods clerk I used to shoot with, we got going on how powerful of rifles modern shooters seem to think they need.  He had a call from a customer that wondered if 200 grain bullets in his .338 would be good enough for deer as he had run out of his usual 250 grain loads.  The store clerk had shot a few deer with a .357 magnum rifle.   I find myself as guilty as any.  I traded off a perfectly good 38-55 for a 45-70 because I felt the 45-70 would do a better job and have regretted it since, as I would have a hard time finding another rifle like it and probably would have to spend far more than the original price to get one.  I have been working on 215 grain bullet loads for a 8mm Turkish Mauser because of that same mentality, when I have an excellent load for my 303 British and a 30-30, both of which will adequately harvest deer.  Dead is an absolute, you cannot make a game animal deader. 

Some, like Daryl, obviously enjoy shooting big guns, and I am not critisizing them for that enjoyment.  A larger caliber in the hands of a good shot has certain advantages such as better blood trails and possibly more knockdown power.  Also, if there is a chance of running into a Grizzly or Brown bear it may give a certain sense of comfort.  On knockdown power I am not so sure.  In my younger days, an experienced hunter told me that if a deer is shot in an opening it will probably run to cover, regardless of what it is shot with. (This is shots to the lungs, not broken shoulders spines, etc.)  If it is 100 yards form cover it will run 100 yards, if 20 probably 20yards.  My experiences seem to verify that this is generally true in that most will run to cover before dropping. 

Just thought it would be fun to hear others experiences and thoughts.

Mnshooter 

 

   

 

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454PB posted this 19 August 2007

I don't hunt deer anymore, but still hunt elk. I can only recall one deer of the many I shot that required any more than a 30/30, and that was distance, not killing power.

I had a couple of bad experiences shooting elk with a too small gun, and switched to either a .338 Win. Magnum or .300 Win. Magnum as a result. Elk are a very tough animal, and will soak up shots that would drop a deer instantly. Yes, I know lots of hunters kill lots of elk with everything from .243's to .270's using one well placed shot. However, those perfect position shots are rare in my experience. I've always said I walked up 500 miles of mountain for every elk I shot, and I'm guilty of taking “less than perfect” shots like running through timber or straight up the rectum. I can tell you a 210 grain .338 Nosler partition will penetrate the full length of an elk's body and destroy the vitals. On the other hand, I shot a spike in the ear at 50 yards with a .308 Winchester 165 grain bullet, elk went down, then jumped up and required another shot. I for one want a big gun for these guys.

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Mnshooter posted this 21 August 2007

Obviously not everyone is comfortable hunting with cast bullets. Hunting loads in cast bullets, as a rule, do not go much above 2000 fps. As Ed Harris pointed out the 30 calibers may match a 30-40 Krag if heavy bullets are used. The good news is that the 30-40 has gotten a lot of game, including an elk that held the world record for some time.
There are calibers that seem to be good choices for normal hunting and shooting on game animals. Adapting cast bullets to certain calibers seems to be the problem. My 270 performed very well with a 130 gr bullet at about 3000. I do not hunt with cast bullets with that rifle due to a lack of selection and the fact that it is overbored for that pupose. Currently I am shooting old bolt action military rifles that seem to work well for deer. For the larger game it seems the big bores start to come in. There does not seem to be a lot of calibers available that are practical in between. Maybe if they made a 300 grain gas check for a 375 H & H or similar for other cartridges one could start duplicating some of the excellent old black powder cartridges in 38 and 40 caliber.

Mnshooter

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Scott Merchant posted this 21 August 2007

Mnshooter     I have been taking deer with cast bullets for close to 30 years. I would like to tell you that I have all the answers but its not so. The first deer where taken with a round ball, but I think this is more about cartridge loaded bullets. One of the first guns used was 45/70 in a Sharps, the bullet was a Lee 405 grain hollow point. The alloy was WW at a Mv 1350 fps, On shooting the Deer it would normally run up to 100 yards, so much for Knock Down Powder. After a number of deer shot with the Lee 405 HP I bought a book called Modern American Rifles by A.C.Gould copy righted in 1892. There I learned that the old timers had some of the same problems. I say some because I believe that we shoot animals different than they did. We have a habit to shoot for the lungs hence to save meat damage, account we learned to hunt with High Velocity rifles. The older literature takes about shooting for the front shoulder, which would brake down the animal stopping it from running off. At the velocity they shot 1200 fps to 1600 fps blood splattering the meat was not a big problem.      Next I purchased a Lyman 330 grain Gould mould. Talk about Thor Hammer it was like instantaneous death, Lungs where completely jelled. The alloy I used 1 part tin to 20 parts pure lead over 75 grain 3f black powder. After a number of deer where harvested with this load the results stayed the same no run off's. I would like to tell you what the bullet expanded to but to date I have never recovered one. Later I purchased a RCBS 45-300-FN cast 1 to 20 it performs the same on game and its easier to cast with on account it's not a hollow point and it has 2 cavities. I do have a bullet recovered from a nice Buck that I shoot with it. The bullet passed though the deer and embedded it self into the dirt. I was all most as happy to recover the bullet as getting the deer, it measureed .670 and had only lost 12 grain weight.       On to smaller caliber rifles. I have only shot deer with 30 caliber's and larger mostly because the bullet moulds offered for caliber's smaller than 30 have a round or semi pointed nose. The moulds I use the most are Lyman 311041, Saeco 305, The 311041 I use in the 30-30 and two groove 1903A3s with velocities between 1750 fps to 1950 fps. The Saeco 305 work well in the Marlin Micro Groove barrels, pushed thru a Lee push up die . 309 at 1850 fps. Also I use it in 4 groove 30 caliber barrels again pushed thru a Lee . 311 and a homemade .310 push up die for velocities up to 2000 fps, It also works as cast in a Savage #4 mark 1  6 grove that I have. The effect on deer shot with the 30 caliber's is that they recovered with in 0 to 30 yards 90% of the time. I have yet to recover a 30 caliber bullet on a deer kill, I once laid in a picked corn field watching about 20 deer feed. I had a late season doe only tag to fill and what I wanted to do is recover a bullet. It was not to be when a big mature doe presented a head on shot, I placed the bullet perfectly in the center of the chest after which she tumbled over backwards regained her feet than collapsed on the spot. After field dress her it was found that the bullet had passed thru the entire body exiting in back of her right hip, the bullet had caused a lot of damage to the organs       I have also had kills with 33 thru 44 caliber weapons They all worked fine but again I use a flat nose bullet. I have talked to guys that use round nose bullets such as 311291 but it seems that they all have the common remark that if you shoot it into the neck or shoulder it works fine. I hate to say more as I have not tried the round nosed bullet on game but I want to able to use the all of the kill area of the deer and know it will work. And it not about shooting ability its that you mite not get the shoulder shot but the lung shot is there.      Hope I have not rattled on to long    Scott

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Mnshooter posted this 22 August 2007

The first deer I ever shot with a cast bullet was with a Gould hollowpoint. The deer reacted like I stated earlier and ran off the field and dropped at the edge of the woods. Both Matthews and Mike Venturino have mentioned that the Gould may not give enough penetration in large deer. Matthews experience was with smokeless, likely pushing it too fast. You have never recovered one at 1-20 and mine went straight through. BP Loads. The 45-70 is a fantastic cast bullet cartridge that will perform about as well as one wants it to depending on your shoulder and the bullets you choose. As I mentioned, I have been shooting mil surps lately and started using cast to save the barrels. I got a load for the Turkish mauser using a sized down Lee 329 bullet at 210 grains more or less to go at over 2000 with good accuracy. Now I have to make a front sight to make it shoot low enough to use if I want to use it. The metal was sound, but it is not really a collectable.
You are correct on shot placement. I have been brainwashed into shooting behind the shoulder (most of my deer through the years with the 270) will have to try a shoulder shot next time. With cast bullets we are essentially trying to adapt to jacketed bullet technology which came along about the same time as smokeless powder. We have to accept that we will have to get closer and use different techniques altogether.

Mnshooter

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Mnshooter posted this 20 September 2007

I have noticed in other topics that many shooters are using lighter 30 bullets and pushing them at 1800 and over. I would think that a bullet like the 210 grain 311284 would make a great bullet cast out of softer lead and pushed between 1400-1600. Alloys such as 1-20 and 1-16 hardness can be pushed at these speeds with gas checks. Ranges seem to be limited to little over 100 yards with any of the loads. A flat nose can be made easily ith a flat nose bullet punch. A heavy bullet of this nature may perform as well as a lighter one of harder alloy thats need to be driven at highr velocities.

Mnshooter

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giorgio de galleani posted this 20 September 2007

Dear MNSHOOTER,do not be carried away by this idea of "you  cannot kill them deader than dead ” and shooting light small caliber bullets.

Being an old phisician and wild boar shooter I have my strong opinions,I want them dead at once and very near  the place  they are shot lest I loose them in the thick woods I hunt them in.

You  absolutely need a big hole and complete penetration with cast bullets.Cast bullets are not Nosler partitions .I believe cast bullet expansion is not reliable.

And paramount is bullet placement if you hit the spinal cord the aorta or the upper part of the heart you are shure to put meet in the freezer,if your deer runs 100 or 200 yds sombody else can get it.

I too had a 38-55 Winchester 94 ,I sold it becuse it had no safety button and feared it made too little holes.

I use a 45/70 Marlin guide gun with LBT wide noses at 1250 fps at woods  range.

And practice a lot. 

I reckon that caliber used depends from many factors ,elephants were killed with a 7 mm mauser,and I respect other people's opinions, better hunters than me can do great things with the smallbores,I stay with Elmer Keith that used to say:"there is no substitute for caliber,bullet weight  and penetration."

In Italy we say “in bocca al lupo” and you reply “crepi il lupo".Boar seasons opens on september 30,at dawn.

REGARDS Giorgio.

PS I killed a couple of our deer (dama dama) 100 pounds animals with 120 grains Nosler bullets with a scoped 6.5 swede atabout 120 meters,They dropped on their tracks.My english is a bit crude,I know to be dogmatic,but I do not want to be rude. 

 

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Mnshooter posted this 23 September 2007

Giorgio

Deer vary in size across the world and in the U.S. As I understand it, there are areas in the U.S. that have a 100 pound club, where one gets excited about shooting adeer big enough to reach 100 pounds. In the midwest and in Canadian provinces a deer as small as 100 pounds is almost an embarassement. I sent a picture of a yealing doe I had shot to my son when he was stationed in Alabama. One of his sargeants, a local thought it was a “monster deer” It likely weighed slightly over 125 pounds. This being said, using a big bore is hardly ever “wrong” however after over forty years of hunting deer and with early experience party hunting where I saw a lot of deer shot by others with all kinds of calibers, I have arrived at the conclusion that an adequate caliber is one that leaves a good trail for tracking, because unless you disrupt the central nervous system or break down the bone structure as in a shoulder shot, there is NO CALIBER that you can shoot of your shoulder that will CONSISTANTLY drop a deer, especially a larger one, in its tracks. Most of that impressive energy is used up on a tree on the other side of the deer. A friend of my sons bought a 50 BMG single shot and shot about a 175 lb deer with it. He hit it through the ribs and watched it run about 70 yards before dropping. I have also seen deer do the same shot with magnums. It practically had the whole other side of the rib cage blown out. I have seen tremendous internal damage on several deer shot by my 270 with 130 grain bullets. Some went down pretty quick and others ran an amazing distance with a lung cavity that looked like jelly when opened up. My brother in law had excellent luck with about three or four deer in a row with a 6.5 Swede and 140 Winchester factory loads. Then a couple ran a ways on him. If I were hunting in an area where I could lose a deer to another tag I would shoot for the shoulder. Some use hardcast to avoid too much meat damage. Slower moving cast softpoints such as the 200+ grain bullets I mentioned will also break the shoulders of even a large deer. A person I know from way back claimed 26 straight one shot kills with his 30-30. As long as one is careful, and properly places his shots, any reasonable “deer cartridge” will do the job. Good luck, good hunting.

Mnshooter

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Ed Harris posted this 24 September 2007

Something to consider is how quickly the load brings down the deer. While I've killed about a dozen whitetails with cast bullets in the .30-30, most did not drop immediately, but ran a short distance and were found piled up within 50 yards. If you aren't a skilled tracker, and hunt in heavy brush, this could result in a lost animal.

My friend Nick, in South Carolina shoots deer with cast bullets on his own property, but does not have permission to hunt on his next door neighbor's land, so needs animals to drop on the spot. He prefers a .375 or .35 Whelen with 250-275-gr. flatnosed bullet at about 1700 f.p.s. As cast bullet deer rifles the .38-55 and 9.3x72R are as good as it ever got. Heavy, flat-nosed bullets such as the NEI #161A cast 1:20 and driven 1600 f.p.s. in the .357 Magnum also do well if the range is short.

A .50 cal. patched roundball with 100 grs. of blackpowder at about 1800 f.p.s. from a muzzleloading rifle is also very effective.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Mnshooter posted this 25 September 2007

ED, generally, my experiences have been that a deer shot through the lungs will run about 50 yards or so and pile up. Some have dropped like poleaxed steers and others have gone a short ways. The bigger bores assist in the fact that tracking skills do not have to be as finely honed if the woods are sprayed red. All of the loads you have mentioned are good, I am sure. However consider the fact that the old 12Ga Foster slug, one ounce, 71 cal, at 1500 muzzle velocity, when fired up close should knock any thing down pretty quick, it has incredible energy transfer compared to a rifle. Yet I have had to track deer hit with a slug up to about 50 yards (it was not hard) and I am sure that if you talk to anyone that has shot several deer with the old slugs they can state that a few ran a ways. Many go down quicker, but there will be an exception. I remember one deer that ran almost 200 yards after being hit perfectly behind the shoulder. There was no performance problem, as I did not think a deer had that much blood in it, and its internal organs were jelly. The tenacity of a wild animal and its need to get into cover can amaze you. I have one spot I do not need to track, they go into a bunch of fall downs that the wind knocked down and are a real treat to drag out.

Mnshooter.

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Mnshooter posted this 27 September 2007

Somehow I have gotten a little off track and am catching myself preaching basic Minnesota Hunter Education tenants which state that if you cannot perform basic tracking you shouldn't hunt deer as sooner or later you will have to track one. Considering that my daughter at 14 and 15 could track quite well after taking the course, that is not too much to expect. I have shot deer with the 45-70 and the Gould hollow point and plan on doing so again. Saying that a 357 revolver with cast is a good as a 30-30, then someone else saying that a 32-20 is as good as a 357 can start leading to a conclusion that one might as well hunt with a 22 short. There is a point of diminishing returns with the big calibers, but yes, if one can shoot it, bigger is better than too small. One of the things that I did not think of before I started this topic was that of the difference in deer across the country. Where mature large deer weigh a little over 100 pounds, one can get by with less penetration and smaller calibers. The last few years, Minnesota had been trying to thin out the deer herd with anterless permits, in which I could shoot up to five deer a year. In taking advantage of this opportunity, I shoot a few smaller deer that are going on their second winter (lets call them 2 yr olds) because they are quite tasty. A 200 pound buck is a nice deer but nothing to really brag about. A 220 pounder is getting up there in the North Woods. In the corn belt, a 220 pound buck is more common and 250 pounds is not un-heard of. I would think Scot Merchant would run into a few of these in Nebraska. Where a 357 magnum, either in rifle or pistol might be very effective on the 2 yr olds, I would be very picky about that choice on a large buck. Basically, I feel that with cast, a 30 cal is about minimum and that I personally prefer something a little larger. Lately I have been playing with a 215 grain 8mm bullet and a 220 grain load for the Austrain Steyr which is a 33 cal. I have a 185 grain bullet for my 30-30. I mentioned earlier a fondness for the heavier 200 grain 30 cal bullets. In cast, one can drive them as fast as the lighter weights, they will retain better velocity down range, and penetrate deeper on the larger deer and break shoulders. Although, many are saying that they have yet to recover a 170 grain from a deer as they have gone completely through. Were I to pick an absolute minimum deer cartridge, it would be the 357 magnum in either rifle or pistol, and a 45 muzzle loader with round ball. I base this on a little over 40 years of experience hunting with mostly jacketed bullets. I admit that using cast bullets in the smaller bores such as the 30 cal and 8mm is new to me and I am still in the research process.

Mnshooter.

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PJGunner posted this 30 September 2007

I've taken a few deer with the 30-30 and cast bullets loaded to near factory velocity.

Most were with the Lyman 311291, but the last two were with the RCBS 30-180-FN which casts out to 190 gr. in my alloy. I come real close to the old .303 Savage specs with that bullet and the deer I've shot with it didn't go very far. I've always been more of a meat hunter (GASP!) rather than looking for horns so most of the deer taken were not all that big.

However, I'm of a mind to use something with a bit more steam, so I'm starting tp play around with the .358 Win. and .35 Whelen. I'm still trying to find something both the rifles and I like, but heck, that's half the fun. I probably won't get a chance to try it this year due to time constraints, but after my deer season is over this year I'll be back at it again.

I just snagged 600 pounds of free wheel weights and about 90 pounds of pure sheet lead so at least I do have something to work with. Wheel weights in my neck of the desert are drying up fast.

Paul B.

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Ed Harris posted this 01 October 2007

If you blend all of the wheelweights with all of the sheet lead you have and perhaps add NTE 1% tin to the mix in the form of bar solder or what-have-you, you should have a dandy hunting alloy which will stand heat treatment. Cast until uniformly frosted, quench from mould and seat GC in a lube die which does not size, just lube only and it will handle factory .30-30 velocities, no leading, but be ductile, expand and hold together.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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giorgio de galleani posted this 01 October 2007

Though I am  in theese days ambushing wild hogs in the Genoa (Italy) highlands with a 1895 G marlin in 45/70 ,I  played with a Mod 700 Rem. in 35 Whelen .

The whelen gun is made for shooting heavy bullets,more than the 200 or 220 grains handled so well by the  30-06.

Got a Lyman 358009 mould,it casts nice  heavy 290 grain.360 dia  bullets ,they like to be driven at 1600-1700 fps, for stability(1 in 16twist).

shorter and lighter 200 grainers from RCBS or Lyman have under sized noses,and pistol bullets are like shooting 80 grainer in a 30-06.

Good shooting ,Giorgio.

 

 

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Mnshooter posted this 02 October 2007

I have been eyeballing the 35 whelen as a possible cast bullet shooter for some time and would appreciate some feed back on the results. Giorgio's 290 grain combo sounds great to me and is an example of what I think the 35 has for potential. When looking through Cartridges of the World, one sees a lot of obsolete calibers that were designed for cast bullets. The 38-55 and the 32-40 were originally target cartridges and quite light as compared to others. The 32-40 never took the world by storm as a hunting cartridge. The 38-55 is great with smokeless, which I have found out first hand, and is an example of what is probably a better hunting cartridge than the modern ones which are really jacketed bullet technology. If only the 40's were more available. Just a thought. Giorgio, tell us how the 45-70 works on boars.

Mnshooter

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PJGunner posted this 02 October 2007

Mnshooter wrote: I have been eyeballing the 35 whelen as a possible cast bullet shooter for some time and would appreciate some feed back on the results. Giorgio's 290 grain combo sounds great to me and is an example of what I think the 35 has for potential. When looking through Cartridges of the World, one sees a lot of obsolete calibers that were designed for cast bullets. The 38-55 and the 32-40 were originally target cartridges and quite light as compared to others. The 32-40 never took the world by storm as a hunting cartridge. The 38-55 is great with smokeless, which I have found out first hand, and is an example of what is probably a better hunting cartridge than the modern ones which are really jacketed bullet technology. If only the 40's were more available. Just a thought. Giorgio, tell us how the 45-70 works on boars.

Mnshooter

Me too. I found a Lyman #3589 AKA 358009 mold and it cast at 270 gr. in my alloy. A few of us on another site had David Mos duplicate the bullet with a slight flat on the nose which we called the 3589I. Due to lack of time and way too many doctor's appointments, I haven't been able to do as much as I like. Twixt the wife and I, plus the dogs going to the vet's all the time, It's been hectic.

Now, I have to get stuff ready for my upcoming deer hunt so It will probably be late November before I can do any serious work with the .358 and .35 Whelen. I would dearly love to get a good hunting load with either one of those rifles.

I figure either my Ruger 77 or Remington 700 Classic with their 1 in 16” twist might work out. If not, my Mauser with the 1 in 14” twist might be better considering the bullet's weight.

There's a couple of articles by Paco Kelly on the .358 and .35 Whelen using both jacketed and cast bullets. I find his cast bullet data to be interesting. Some of his load data is on the hot side though. You might do a search and see if you can find them. If not, I have them on file.

Paul B.

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giorgio de galleani posted this 08 October 2007

I am a shameless braggart.

Killed a nice yearling 80 pounder yesterday   at 15 yds, chest shot,behind the shoulder,no broken bones,just bilateral pneumotorax and hemophtoe,stone dead after 6 feet.

LBT 400 gr Marlin bullet,following Veral 's load instructions.

Italian BOAR season ends on Christmas or till we kill 7250 pigs in our hunting territory,whichever comes first,

Regards,Giorgio

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CB posted this 08 October 2007

Hey Giorgio that's great!

Thanks for letting us know (not just bragging). That big 400gr CB sure did its job. Keep us up to date on Italian hunting adventures...............Dan

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Tom Acheson posted this 09 October 2007

Hi Giorgio,

Never have shot a deer with a cast bullet in a rifle. But I have taken (21) Mule Deer in Wyoming (since 1982) and ALL were shot with iron sighted revolvers with 8"+ barrels chambered in .41 Mag or my own “wildcat” .41 Wyoming, ALL using .411” sized cast bullets. The .41 Mag uses a 296-grain bullet at 1200-fps and the 41 Wyoming uses a 323-grain bullet at about 1100-fps. Moulds are Hoch nose-pour design with gas checks. Alloy is 100% wheelweight. Bullets do have a 1/8” dia. or slightly larger flat on the nose. The one constant with all of these deer was that the entrance and exit hole were all the same size---small, no expnasion and after being hit they didn't go off to die, they did it where they were hit by the bullet. Shooting distances varied from 8-feet to 125-yards but the wound sizes have always been similar as noted. The average field dressed weight is approximately 140-pounds but the largest was 212-pounds. The only deer I've taken in Minnesota (41 Wyoming) behaved the same way after being hit. I guess I'm a beliver in large slow bullets for cast bullet deer hunting. Wyoming for many years required a minimum remaining energy of 500-foot pounds at 100-yards to be a legal handgun load for deer. It's hard to find a factory .357 load that performs up to that level.

Not trying to brag here but I wnated to add comments about the use of cast bullets on deer. Judging by the way the animals reacted when hit, that flat nosed bullet must be imparting a lot of high impact energy to their body as bullet expansion is not producing huge wound channels to expedite bleeding, etc.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Tom

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Mnshooter posted this 29 October 2007

Tom My experiences with bigger bores has been limited on deer to only a few. However when i used a handgun on varmits and other smaller game I noticed that a bigger bore seemed to be more abrupt than a 357 magnum even though the magnum had good expansion. The critters seemed to just topple over and go limp. Some of the loads you use are similar to the old 40 cal BPC rifle loads, which were popular in their day. I would love to be able to afford making up a 40-70 straight (one can use 30-40 Krag or 303 British as a case to form them) in a rifle to adapt to smokeless powder as I agree with you in that cast bullet technology lends itself to slower loads with heavier bullets. Also one is generally limited to under 200 yards in range. Handguns and the old BPCs are of a technology more favoring of cast bullets.
I also suspect that a lot of the reason I see deer run is that most of those that have run, have run off fields, as stated earlier that seems to be the norm. Usually they are found just within cover. Northern Minesota gives meaning to the word brush. Bear are hunted over bait. Deer are either ambushed up close in the brush or shot off fields, usually early morning or before dark. Those shot in the brush tend to go down pretty quick, especially if shot unaware. Those that come out on fields may be a bit nervous on being out of their element which may explain why they go farther. When I used to party hunt I would see driven deer take quite a bit of shooting if not broken down with a shoulder or spine hit. Both of us could tell “war stories” to prove a point and I suspect both of us are right if we know the situations.

Mnshooter

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Southern Man posted this 02 November 2007

Hello Guys, I'll chime in on the flat nose round nose thing a bit. I know just a few critters does'nt always tell the whole story , but what Elmer Keith Knew in the 1920's , I've had to be hard headed and learn for myself.Round nose cast bullets have a harder time staying their course in heavy game, or at longer ranges, when they start running low on energy, than flat nose,and the bigger and heavier the flat nose the better , if you can handle the recoil enough to practice a lot. I shot a 2022# bison with my Sharps,45-70 @ 125 yards using Saeco's 500 grn. Round nose @1400 fps The bullet went in just behind the shoulder and held it's course until it hit the of side shoulder , this is where I got lucky . The bullet turned straight up and cut the Bull's spine. When we halfed him at the slaughter house the saw cut the bullet perfectly in half. That bullet could have went in any direction , and I could have lost that Bull. After that I went to flat nose bullets and my wound channels have stayed true thus far. Southern Man

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Mnshooter posted this 22 November 2007

Last year I shot a deer with a round nose at about 75 yards. The bullet probably had a Bn of about 12. It expanded very well, blew an impressive hole and got me hooked on hunting with cast bullets. Many seem to think you need a flat point to guarantee expansion. I think that probably the blunter round noses such as that one, a Lee bullet 1-r, probably preform about as well as a flat point. As to bullets that do not expand, I leave that to others. Another season has rolled by and I went through my ususal arm chair day-dreaming about getting another rifle in an “ideal caliber” . This year my daughter got the rifle as I had picked her up a Chilean mauser rebarreled to 300 Savage. Spent some time reworking the rifle to get a scope mounted, a decent trigger pull and to just give her a nice little rifle. She got two deer very handily with it and was glad that that she had given back the 30-30 I had given her to use but somehow became hers. The 30-30 proved to me that with the right alchemy in cast bullets, one does not need a larger bore. My load of a 187 grain bullet at 1870 performed excellently at about 150 paces on a very large doe. Had I needed the blood trail it was adequated, but she did not go that far and I found the deer while hunting for the blood trail. What was unusual was that the deer was laying upright and had to be rolled over to field dress. Most lay stretched out on their side. When it dropped it must have really dropped. Got two deer with that load and can say that it performed on them as good as one can ask for, as I said earlier, dead is dead. While it is still fun to play with other cartridges and loads, I do not know they could perform much better.

Mnshooter

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Southern Man posted this 23 November 2007

Hello Guys, I hope you had as happy , and traditoinal Thanksgiving as I did. Killed a mature Whitetail buck this morning and was at Granny's eating turkey by noon. When I first started reading this topic I thought you were talking about bigger game than small white tail does , that in my experience you can kill cleanly shot through the lungs with .22 rn at 2000 fps . Bigger game is another story. I don't think you need a big fast flat point for expansion , but for a harder blow, straight true wound channels and deeper penetration. Because the bigger mature Bucks and Bulls rarley ever give that standing still broad side shot like they show on the outdoor channel .More like Elemer Keiths going away raking shot,and with more hunters on less land, they usually need to be stopped, not tracked. But to each his own.Southern Man

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Mnshooter posted this 24 November 2007

Southern Man

I am willing to bet the little doe I shot weighed more than the buck you shot. She hit about 170 pounds. My garage has a ceiling and her feet touched the ceiling with her nose less than a foot off the floor. A 22 at 2000 will sometimes take a deer that size cleanly but will leave a very poor blood trail. Also a larger deer will go a ways further. Since your little deep south deer do good to hit over 100 pounds one could probably hunt them best with beagles and birdshot. Minnesota issues up to five antlerless permits per person in my area as they want to thin out the deer population. Due to this I shoot does for venison and wait for a nice buck, which did not show itself this year. I have shot plenty of deer and have gotten quite selective on the bucks I shoot.

Other than your contribution, no one has written concerning hunting heavier game. I know BPC shooters do so, but use rifles similar to your Sharps in 45-70 or heavier. As a person of more limited means I have not been able to hunt larger game as the trips have gotten quite expensive.

Mnshooter

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Southern Man posted this 24 November 2007

Hello mnshooter,I was'nt trying to offend you. I'm sorry if I did. This is a debate that has been going on for 100 years, and will probably go on for 100 more. I hope it does any way. But my Buck did weigh a little less than 200# on the hoof,like most mature ones around here . About 50 miles north of here where we hunt some ,in Ky. we have killed a few that feild dressed 200#. I know that's not as big as your's get.But the gentelman from Italy that was talking about the boar hunting probably has tougher critters than either of our deer.The few I've killed here have been a lot harder to stop than the deer I've killed.Being hunters and shooters that like to try diffrent stuff , and having diffrent veiws should be part of the fun. Southern Man

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Mnshooter posted this 25 November 2007

Learned something again Southern Man. As I stated earlier, when my son was stationed at Fort Bragg, one of his sargeants from Alabama or Georgia was talking about the “monster deer” from a picture I sent my son concerning a bow killed yearling I had shot (one of my first). I remember seeing pictures of some of the deer killed in those areas and was not kidding that much about hunting them with beagles as they are small. A 200 pound deer is a good deer around here too. A few in the papers this year field dressed at 180 which would put them over 200on the hoof. I probably should have mentioned the size of the deer as good performance in a smaller animal (such as the one of camp meat size I shot) is not very informative. I was hoping to read about tests and results of cast on different critters such as your boars. Before Mn called them a game animal I popped a nice two year old black bear with a 22 Hornet while crow hunting. It was amazing what a small caliber can do. It broke its neck, and entered the fron quarters. They hunt black bear a lot around here but do so over bait as that is about the only way to see them (I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I have seen them when on foot or in deer stands in the forty plus years I have been hunting). It really is not a form of hunting that appeals that much to me so I don't do it. They get shot with quite a variety of shoulder cannons, hand cannons muzzleloaders and bows and arrows as it is a close range proposition. I would not hesitate to shoot them with the 30-30 load I used on deer this year.

Mnshooter

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Southern Man posted this 25 November 2007

Hello mnshooter, Unfortunately the only big Boar I've killed I got with my Marlin 1895 45-70,and 300 grn. Rem. jacketed hp @1750 fps.He weighed 350# on the hoof. I shot him trotting @ 60 yds.and hit him through the lungs back a little futher than I meant to.For the last 10 or 15 years I've tried to stop every thing I shoot on the spot,after a few bad things happened on lung shot game. Like armed confrontations in the back woods with people trying to tag my critters,game running off the side of Mtns. , and taking a day to get them out,when it could have taken a few minutes.Then there's the shooting right before dark , they run 100 yds, and you think you should waite till morning ,. Then morning comes and the coyotes have ate them . I could go on and on,but you get picture. From the early 80s to the late 90s we could kill 11 bucks a year plus does and the 20 or 30 people in my clan would try to tag out every year,we decided it was better to lose a shoulder or two as lose the whole deer.Now we can kill 3 does a day and 3 bucks a year, which is realy helping the deer herd.Back to the hog. He ran a 40 yard semi circle and got to the point where you would have thought a deer would have rolled, he got a second wind and headed straight for me, I shot him again in the point of the [email protected] 20 yards and he dropped. The others I've killed have just been about 100 # on the hoof, not a very good load test.I do have some Lyman 457-122 hp loaded for the Marlin , cast from 20 and 1 @ 1550fps, And some Lyman 375-449 g c loaded for my Ruger Safari Magnum .375 H&H @ 1950 FPS cast from lyno, that I plan to try on hogs later this winter. I'll let you know how that goes if I have any luck. Southern Man P S I'm leaning towards thinking a good old 405 fp will be better on big Boars than the 457-122

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giorgio de galleani posted this 25 November 2007

I subscribe every single word in your story .Bad weather kept me home for a month,I hope I'll be able to try again my 45/70with 400 grainers on boars soon.

400 grainers were enough for the US cavalry and they are enough for me.

I condemn this  wiched modern passing fad of light bullets and high velocity bullets.

Regards,

 Giorgio.

When the hunting season is over I am going to try some saeco 22 bullets in my win 70 heavy barrel fast twist gun.

 

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Southern Man posted this 25 November 2007

Buffalo George Dega ,Sorry to hear the weather has you shut down.Looks like we have a lot in common. My English is not that good either. Ha Ha.I speek proper Southern, definetly not English.It seems we've both put up our tents in good old Elmer's camp also.I've been casting Lyman 225438 & 225415.Ive never cast and sized .22 cal bullets , and I'm not looking forward to putting the gas checks on.I hunt Coons & tree Squirrels with Mtn. Cur dogs, when it's not big game season , and I want to try and make my own ammo for that purpose. I've been using rimfires for the small game all my life and am looking forward to trying something new. Let me know how it goes with your Saeco .22s.By the way, what does the Dega in you handle mean? Southern Man

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Mnshooter posted this 28 November 2007

At one time, I was really hooked on black powder cartridges and tried BP in a 22 hornet to duplicate the older 22 HP. Accuracy was so-so with the best black loads so I never really used it. Steve Garbe in his magazine on BP cartridges talked about trying BP in 25-20s and others and resorting to duplex loads. About the best the Hornet would give was a load equivalent to the old 22WRF load of 45 grains. Accuracy with smokeless was better. Mostly quit trying as my choices for hunting are either high power or shotgun and hardly ever have a use for 22's. Its all about fun so good lick.

Southern Man, I would suggest that you look at other threads concerning your choice of linotype, as some have claimed that it tends to shatter on impact. The tempered WW is more popular as it is a heavier bullet and tough for those purposes and really not that hard to make. When I used to butcher beef in the fall we would shoot them in the head with 22's. They would drop so quickly that we would have to roll them over to gut them. No way would it be practical to hunt 800-1000 pound animals with a 22, but it shows how shot placement is so important. To me a 190 to 200 plus grain bullet is fairly heavy for deer ass driven at about 1800 it will likely shoot through a deer length wise or nearly so. Also at slower speeds I can choose a shoulder shot if needed without throwing away the whole front quarter like I used to have to with the 270. A deer I shot with the lyman 45 320 grain Gould HP ran a ways because I hit him (this was a buck) too far back and liver shot him. That deer would not have run so far with a better placed 30-30 load, but likely would have been still alive when I found him if hit in the same place with the 30-30. I do feel that the proper loads with a big bore can make a difference on iffy hits, but make little difference on a well placed shot. Unfortunately, sometimes they step forwards just as we pull the trigger or we just plain screw up. There's nothing wrong with a bigger bore, and they can be fun. I've stated before, that I wish there were a better selection of in between's One English gentleman in the early part of the 1900's wrote that the 303 British with the 215 grain Kynoch was an excellent lion load. Would work for all the lions I get to hunt in MN.

MNshooter

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giorgio de galleani posted this 28 November 2007

Dega are the first 4 letters of my name,and the nickname      I had at work.

Now I am gloriously retired ,and spend most of my time in shooting cast bullets as a cow boy shooter ,hunting and experimenting with old ordnance,three smle and a civil svd alias sniperskaia vertovka dragunova.

regards,Giorgio.

( I have seen no pigs this morning) 

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Southern Man posted this 28 November 2007

Hello Guys,I've been hearing that the lyno could come unglued.I'll be suprised if the 260 grain .375 does on something no larger than a big boar, but I'm concerned enough that the first round in my magazine will be a full power load with 260 Accubond.I'm probably being hard headed, but I've got to see for my self.Cool name Buffalo George. Southern Man

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Ed Harris posted this 29 November 2007

I can relate from experience that linotype alloy in the .30 cals at over 2000 fps produces nasty surface wounds with poor penetration on deer. Much better to use one pound of wheelweights alloyed into 7 pounds of nominally pure plumbers lead, then heat treat bullets for 6-7 hours at 475 deg. F. for four hours, water quench and “cold soak” in freezer for 14 days to get 20+ BHN which will stand the same velocity. But you then have hard, ductile bullet with double-caliber expansion and 80%+ weight retention comparable to jacketed softpoints.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Southern Man posted this 01 December 2007

Hello Ed, Thanks for the recepie.That's more time an trouble than I'm willing to invest right now,but it will be good to know if I ever need it.By the time I put in a work week, then hunt all I can , it's all I can do to muster up the energy to cast and load.What type and weight .30 cal did you have the trouble with, and do you think the .375 will give the same results on a big boar? I usually have to put down some sick or wounded livestock every winter. It might be better for me to try the .375 and lyno on a dead cow rather than a live hog. Thanks for the help. Southern Man

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Idaho Sharpshooter posted this 02 December 2007

Shiloh Sharps LRE 45-70. 500gr RFN Lyman @1470fps. Dec 2005 1500lb bull bison at 217 yards just behind the crease 1/3 of the way up. Went down, got up, staggered 20 feet to a mud wallow...went down, gave the death bellow and began to assume ambient temperature.

Dec 2006, ditto 2100lb bull at 180yds, same shot and results.

Last three years elk with the RCBS 350gr FnGC at 2154 from my CZ 416 Rigby. None of the three went 20yds. Double lung shots 145-215 yds, complete penetration and 1” exit wounds.

Rich

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Southern Man posted this 02 December 2007

Hello Idaho Sharpshooter, What alloy were you using in your .416? Thanks Southern Man

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giorgio de galleani posted this 14 December 2007

I 've killed another nice 80 lbs hog last week.he was running towards me hotly pursued by the hound Luna,a shot through the chest and he turned upside down on the spot kicking the air,so I gave him another to finish him at once.

The usual .45 wound channel with massive internal bleeding.The finishing shot fractured one kidney,tearing the nearby big arteries.

The gun is a 45/70 marlin 1895G  loaded with Veral's 400 marlin bullets,cast in ww air cooled not sized and alox lubed ,and enough Vihtavuori 110 to give 1350 fps.

I use a WGOS ghost ring peep sight and a red optic fiber front sight I got from Brownells,simple sturdy and cost effective for hunting in my thick woods.

The Genoa Province  Fish and Game authority wants some 900 more boars dead ,so hunting season is still going on.

Regards,giorgio 

 

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Southern Man posted this 14 December 2007

Buffalo George, Congragulations on the hog.What type hounds do you guys use for hogs?Do you mainly shoot them on the run, or do they bay up?I broke my Mtn. Curs off hogs when they were pups, because coon and squirrel dogs are to valuable around here to be getting them cut up by hogs. I've been thinking of getting another pair for just hogs.I just bought a .35 Whelen on a 1909 Argentine Mauser action that I'm going to get Veral to build a mould for like your marlin mould.I've been having to work a lot since Thanksgiving, but after Sunday I'm off for 17 days and the blood is going to flow. Good luck. Southern Man

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giorgio de galleani posted this 17 December 2007

Dear Southern Man,

Boar hunting in  province Genoa Italy (with a catholic marxist & bambiist local administration) is strictly regulated ,we must join a team (team 68,Fascia & Loco)and hunt from the third sunday of september on wendsdays and sundays until we reach the bag of 7250 pigs . The number is emanated by a biology  oracle from Genoa University.The Authority is schizophrenic ,they are against game killing but they are greedily getting high licence fees and   hate to pay the damages the game give to the local landowners.

We have a dozen team dogs cared for by hillybillies, mostly beagles and italian segugio  Hounds),and we do have 2 or three casualties each year .The hounds have more courage than brains and when a hog is cornered  by two or three dogs they often attack it before the arrival of the dog driver. Sometimes dogs are carried away in hot pursuit into the next counties and get killed in road accidents . At dusk they know that the hunt is over and go home.They are not trained to come back when called by the driver. We are planning to buy some Maremmani hounds that are said to return more promptly to their masters. 

I own 5 english cocker spaniels and use them for upland game,they are trained to hunt near me and come back at once when called. They are kept in my home,sleep under my bed and have their own sofa in the kitchen.Losing one of them would be a tragedy,years ago I had a gordon setter,a faraway running dog who was killed by a car.spaniels have shorter legs and stay near me,under control.The way we hunt is the “braccata” the hogs are driven by the dogs against the shooters line.

We surround a zone  of thorny bush with  stand shooters   ,posted in strategic locations along the game trails,we have orders to stay in our post , and told  which direction we may shoot, We are all wearing orange jackets ,usually we do not see the  next shooters and are not allowed to  move around to collect the game without  getting permission from the team boss by walkie talkie.Only the hillybillies hound drivers are allowed  to shoot the bayed up hogs ,for obvious safety reasons.My team mates use mainly 30-06 and 308W semiauto rifles ,except me ,faithful  fan of the 45/70 .IN BOCCA AL LUPO we say here,Giorgio.

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Southern Man posted this 17 December 2007

Buffalo George,Thanks for awnsering my questions.I'm always interested in hearing about how other folks hunt diffrent game.Even more so when dogs are involved. The way you hunt hogs sounds alot like the way they hunt Bear here in the Smokey Mtns.I have'nt got to try it yet but have been learning all I can in order to get ready.Sounds like the only diffrence is, instead of free casting the dogs, they find a big bear track and are selective in which track they will run.A big bear in the Smokies will weigh 500# to 600# .Mainly the local Mtn. people own and handle the dogs,and the knowledge of where the bear will cross has been passed through the generations since Daniel Boone , then Davy Crockett hunted this area.So the dog owners will place hunters on stand before they turn loose the dogs.Some of these guys treat their dogs like family , like you and I do.When they turn loose ,they want the bear dead ASAP.Lots of these big bear are what they call walking bear, meaning they wo'nt bay or tree they just walk along and fight the dogs when they take a notion and then keep walking.I bought my Marlin 45-70 for this purpose and hog hunting.I just ordered an X-S brand peep sight for it , and am taking the scope off. I killed my 350# boar still hunting in the Cumberland Mtns. on a hog hunt and was lucky to get one that big.The others I've killed have been targets of oppurtuntiy.There's some rough country around here and the hogs mainly move at night is why I've been thinking of getting dogs just for hogs,and try not get to fond of them.I took my .375 H&H loaded with Lyman 375-449 this morning trying to get a white-tail doe,but the only two I saw, I could'nt tell if they were bucks or does , so I did'nt shoot. Good luck Southern Man

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linoww posted this 19 December 2007

 I killed my 350# boar still hunting in the Cumberland Mtns. on a hog hunt and was lucky to get one that big.The others I've killed have been targets of oppurtuntiy.

Thats a nice pig.I grew up hunting feral hogs in N.California.Peolpe used to dog them to get rid of them.Then they became a “game” animal when the deer poulation went down. Then the population dropped and most of the bigger ones were gone,most we shot were in the 100-200# range.It is hard to figure out a behavior pattern with them,it seemed they just roamed to follow food.One area might get rooted up three nights in a row and then never get hit for another month.I found most of mine by just spending time in the woods.

I never got to shoot one with cast.I had my 44 mag rifle with cast all morning and then decided to hunt open country so i grabbed my 35 Whelen(long range gun) when I passed by camp .I headed out from camp and shot one at 50 yards.I was mad as hell as I wanted to try my 310g cast bullet on one!! I hunted with the same bullet in a Ruger SBH and hada very large boar trot past at about 100 yd.I didnt have a chance to try a shot and dad wouldnt do it with his rifle because he said “you wanted the be the big hangun hunter son"I ran after it down a slope and took a mean spill.I got up with scrapes,but no pistol.it was mixed up in a pile of Oak leaves and rocks still sliding below me down the slope.One week later i found it witha metal detector.It was a loneley walk back to camp without a gun.That was my last handgun hunt.

George

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Southern Man posted this 19 December 2007

George,I know the country you were in ,that could happen to anyone,for sure if your were over toward Maggie Valley or Cherokee.I do'nt just handgun hunt much,but I always carry one hunting or not.Usually an S&W,M-57 Mtn. Gun .41 mag loaded with 215 Keiths and 20.5 grn of IMR 4227,when I'm around home ,or an 1911 if I go to town.The .41 does a good job on most game.I had to put down a couple cows with it last winter, and at that range a .22 would have worked,but I have'nt recorved a bullet yet.I just got an 1909 mauser .35 Whelen and am expanding FC 30-06 brass and getting a small ring at the neck, shoulder juncture that I can feel with my thumbnail.Do you know if that's normal or do you use factory brass? Southern Man

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linoww posted this 19 December 2007

I just got an 1909 mauser .35 Whelen and am expanding FC 30-06 brass and getting a small ring at the neck, shoulder juncture that I can feel with my thumbnail.Do you know if that's normal or do you use factory brass? Southern Man

 

 

My Whelens are both factory Remingtons.I use old Den42 military brass to form my cases and it doesnt have the ring you are talking about.I annealed the cases just to be safe before necking them up on a Hornady eliptical expander.I did it by dipping them in my lead pot.I liked the 35 on hogs it put them down pretty quick.My best hunting shot was with it.My dad wounded one and it took us 1 hour to find it.When I did it took off  full"boar” down hill and to a logging trail.At the time i was running 60-70 mles per week(i was 25) so i was up for the chase.I ran after it for about 1/2 mile and finally realized” hey...I have a gun"I was just enjoying the chase.I got on the kneeling position and gave it a prostate check with a Speer 250.The shot was about 100yds.I know people have made better shots but it was my best.That would kill me these days.

 

George

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Ed Harris posted this 20 December 2007

Best way I have found is to first use an RCBS .35 Brown-Whelen expander die. This expands out the shoulder and makes the case almost cylindrical. Then run cases through the regular .35 Whelen FL sizer to neck and properly form the shoulder.  Set up the die when you do this do that case enters with slight resistance on a stripped bolt. Outside neck turn to 0.012 to just clean up any thick spots, then stress relieve in a gas flame.  If you are anal retentive, then inside deburr flash holes with a No. 2 Long Center Drill and uniform primer pockets with the Whitetail or Sinclair tool.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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giorgio de galleani posted this 21 December 2007

Of course Buffalo George has a Rem 700 35 Whelen and I use either 35 cases or 06 cases.

I form them easily vith a Lee full lenght die with its tapered expander stem.

I lghtly neck turn the cases and use a Neil Jones neck sizer.

Shoot Lyman 280 gr GC bullet lubed in a 360 die,the nose is engraving in the lands

Very lucky occurrence indeed

My rem 700has a slow twist and likes speeds over 1600 fps .

Col  Whelen's offspring   is a very clever idea a caliber I like very much.

The shoulder is  big enough ,I have no headspace problems,and .38 pistol bullets must be at least 360.

 Merry  Chrismas and a Happy New Year ,Gioegio.

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Southern Man posted this 21 December 2007

Hello Guys, Thanks for the help on the .35 looks like I'm going to need all I can get. I'm using a stantard RCBS 2 die set.I decided before I tried anything else I would try another brand cases and went to R-P and the ring went away, it was a ring and not a bulge with the F-C cases.Both brands are coming out 2.460",max length is 2.494".I fired some rounds with 57 then 55 grains of IMR 4831,then 47 grns of IMR 4895,with Hornady 250 ,and got enough primer protrusion to cause a sticky bolt lift.IF the chamber was set up for the longer .35 cases would that casuse this ,or do you think it is a head space problem period.I know I can buy some factory ammo and find out but if I'll have to make a trip to town and it's throwing good money towards bad if it's a head space problem anyway. Thanks for your help . Southern Man

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pls1911 posted this 02 February 2008

I reading this stream it seems a common thought that once shot game runs.

This is true enough with shot placement behind the shoulder.

Call me lazy.. if cant drop 'em where they stand, I don't pull the trigger.

My placement is the “T” where spine crosses shoulder, which allows enough margin for eroor. Mhis placement with cast bullets wastes little meat and assure recovery.

Deer, Elk, and tough old pigs to 200+ pounds...boom... plop... total penetration every time, through both shoulders

My favorite remains the 45-70 single shots ( Ruger, Sharps and Remingtons) with heat treated W-W gas checked flat nosed bullets 300 to 460 grains out to 150 yards. The heavier slugs let me find the “T” from any angle.... or three pigs at a pop if I can get 'em lined up at the corn trough.

Cheers.

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CB posted this 08 February 2008

I have hnuted with T/C Contenders and done well. I took a deer with a 243 a few years back, but have dis some fine hunting with rifles like 30-30s and 45-70.

 

To me it depends on the range between you and the game. For elk, moose and bear, I have my 300 RUM rifle, and I wanted it becuase I can do some shooting at 100 to 200 yards with a good kill shot.

For ground hogs and coyotes, I use what ever will dispatch them fastest and maybe leave a pile of fur and red goo.

 

Jerry

 

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galenaholic posted this 08 April 2008

Ok, I have a couple of questions here, one for George and on for Ed Harris.

George. I see you are using the Lyman #358009 bullet for the .35 Whelen. I've been trying to find a load that my rifles would like (I have three .35 Whelens.) but what limited time I've had to work with them makes me curious as to what load your are using? Might make it easier for me to get one that shoots well in my rifles.

Ed, my question for you pertains to your 1 pound of WW, 7 pounds of pure lead alloy.

I do my heat treating in a toaster oven set at a nominal 425 degrees. I say nominal because just moving the dial up a hair and the bullets slump. My normal alloy is 10 pounds of WW, one pound of linotype. one third cup of chilled bird shot and a three foot piece of 95/5 percent lead free solder. Sounds complicated but it makes and awfully nice bullet. Usually one hour in the toaster oven and a quick quench will giver a bullet that age hardens in a couple of weeks to about 30-31 on my LBT scale. I never thought about putting them in the freezer.

I guess what concerns me is that 6 to 7 hour cooking of the bullets. I wonder if that thing will last for the time needed to heat them? I'm stuck with the toaster over as my wife absolutely will not allow me to “cook” bullets in her brand new oven. I'm just wondering if maybe you have heard of other's experiences with the T/O?

Paul B.

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Ed Harris posted this 09 April 2008

galenaholic wrote: Ed, my question for you pertains to your 1 pound of WW, 7 pounds of pure lead alloy...what concerns me is that 6 to 7 hour cooking of the bullets. I wonder if that thing will last for the time needed to heat them? I'm stuck with the toaster over as my wife absolutely will not allow me to “cook” bullets in her brand new oven. Too bad.  You have my sympathy.  I hope it's true love.

BTW I have my “own” oven which I use for HT bullets.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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giorgio de galleani posted this 10 April 2008

Dear Galenaholic,My 35 Whelen is a Rem 700 of recent manifacture and has a slow twist,1-16 if I recall exactly,so the piece liked 300gr bullets at 1600 fps,with a load of 16 grains of Nitrokemia Green Box Rex (hungarae)powder,no filler and magnum primers.This load is for target shooting

I must presume you won't find Rex powder at any general store from Apache Wells to San Carlos Reservation I'll tell you of my august roe deer hunting  project.

Shooting from a tree stand at distances under 150 meters,I wiil try for 1800fps with Vihtavuori 110 ,Finnish powder,made to duplicate your 2400,a powder praised by Elmer Keith and our friend Ed Harris.Not position sensitive and burns well with WW LR primers.

I hope to get that velocity and no leading with old wheel weights witout all that mess of heat treating.

I believe that the use of lighter bullets in the 35 Whelen is meaningless as the venerable .30-'06 shoots splendidly bullets up to 200-220 grains,bullets with a wonderful ballistic coefficient and penetration..

I have an RCBS 200 gr gas check bullet,with  a hopeless undersize nose,might shoot well in the 35 Rem. 

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galenaholic posted this 14 April 2008

Thanks George. I see you're familiar with Arizona. I've pased through the San carlos Reservation on my way to an deer hunt over by Winslow. I checked out the price a while back to do an elk hunt on the San Carlos. They want even more for a bull hunt than on the White Mountain Reservation. In either case, you just about have to be in the same income bracket as Bill Gates.

The White Mountain Rez has some unguided cow elk hunts so I might look into one of those provided they're still within my retirement pay range. Just like Arizona, you have to try and draw a tag. I failed to draw an elk tag this year. It's been six years since I've done an elk hunt and that's six years too many.

We've had a few incidents of mountain lions coming into town and feeding off people's pets lately. I just might pick up an over the counter tag and see if I can collect me one. I did see a lot of sign during last year's deer hunt.

Paul B.

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giorgio de galleani posted this 14 April 2008

Arizona is more than a real place for me.She is a dream of western movies,deserts the grand canyon, and a country of a beauty that leaves me without words .

An old tango italian song says:

laggiù nell'arizona,

terra di sogni e di chimere,

se una chitarra suona,

cantano mille capinere. 

Down there in Arizona,land of dreams and of Chimeras,if a guitar is playing a thousands small birds  will sing.

Pleas do not search for logic in poems.

I am a Cow boy,living in the wrong century.Of course I love cast bullets and obsolete guns.And I am not a fan of this craze of small caliber guns.

As Sir Samuel Baker used to  say big bores are over the 12 bore rife.

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giorgio de galleani posted this 14 April 2008

Theese modern Apaches want more than a blanket ,some beads and and a wee sip of rye wiskey.

The world is changing,and not getting better.

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Southern Man posted this 16 April 2008

Hello Guys,I,m glad to see your talking about the 35 W. again.I shot mine yesterday ,The 1909 Mauser that was backing out the primers a bit ,using expanded 30-06 brass.I have to send out all my gunsmithing ,so I bought a box of factory ,Rem. 250 grn. sp ,10 shots avg.2456 fps,and no primer trouble.I reloaded those 10 two times from 1900-2280 fps with no problems.So I thought no big deal I'll just buy some 35 W. brass and forget about the 30-06 brass.The 35 brass came with the necks all dented up,so I sized it  with the die set the same as I sized the brass from the factory ammo,and got the same problems with the primers that I had with the 30-06 brass .All thoughts on this matter are very welcome.Since your also talking about Az. and LionsI'll pass on a story about them. I'd never even been through Az. when I booked a lion hunt with dogs  in 2006.I was due to hunt 5 days at the end of Nov.& first of Dec.The weather was bad here and I thought I,d get to warm my bones,if I got a lion or not.We were hunting out of Prescott and the day before the hunt it snowed on the Kiabab so we headed out a 10 pm and it was snowing so hard on a rez east of Flagstaff it took us until 3 am to get to the Kiabab.It was 3 degrees F.Good news was we cut a huge tom track just before daylight , and by the time we got the dogs collered and everything ready the sun was coming up and legal to dump the dogs.There was a Vet traning pups that found us just as we were turning loose and we let him dump his pups and come along. The lion went up a caynon out across the top of a Mtn. and over into a really nasty caynon.We found his kill,a big mule deer close to the top and figured he was treed.About that time we heard  a shot and figured it was a deer hunter.We made it to a big Pine tree and could tell the dogs had been treed there ,and found blood and fur so we strated tracking in the snow while part of the party went for a truck.When we found the lion he was ripping 10,000 dollar dogs to shreds and was gut shot.The ones that went for the truck ran up on a guy with a 3 month old baby in his back pack and his wife was about 15 min. behind him.They had heard the dogs tree, drove as close as they could get, the wife gut shot the lion ,and the baby was freezing to death so they just turned around and headed back.The Vet. was about 60 and had hunted lions in Az.all his life and said it was by far the bigest one he had ever seen .approx.170-180#.The lion had to be shot in defense of the dogs,not by me and I would'nt tag it.The woman wound up tagging it ,and it was a very bad scene when we all got together .The guy with the baby in the back pack was begging for his life ,the Vet. saved him and luckily all the dogs.The law in Az. is you have to follow the dogs and lion step for step,so the man and wife lost their hunting rights    , and got off lucky.We stayed out all the next night trying to cut another track,it got down to 15 below zero,we only found where a female with two grown kittens had killed a fork horn muley,and the dogs were in such bad shape we didnt bother running them.The snow had crusted over so we headed back to Prescott and when we got there we had been up 60 hours.  We started hunting the next morning about 30 miles from town and cold trailed a good tom to his kill ,a big 4x4 muley,and thought sure we would catch him there the next morning ,but when we got there a big boar black bear was on the kill.We trailed the lion for the next two days but never treed him. I hope none of you have ever had as long and depressing a drive home as I did back to Tennessee without a lion and hardly enough money for gas.So the way I feel about Az. is , it's such a magnifecent place I would go back in a heart beat . Southern Man

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