How Much Gun

  • Last Post 16 April 2008
Mnshooter posted this 18 August 2007

While talking to a sporting goods clerk I used to shoot with, we got going on how powerful of rifles modern shooters seem to think they need.  He had a call from a customer that wondered if 200 grain bullets in his .338 would be good enough for deer as he had run out of his usual 250 grain loads.  The store clerk had shot a few deer with a .357 magnum rifle.   I find myself as guilty as any.  I traded off a perfectly good 38-55 for a 45-70 because I felt the 45-70 would do a better job and have regretted it since, as I would have a hard time finding another rifle like it and probably would have to spend far more than the original price to get one.  I have been working on 215 grain bullet loads for a 8mm Turkish Mauser because of that same mentality, when I have an excellent load for my 303 British and a 30-30, both of which will adequately harvest deer.  Dead is an absolute, you cannot make a game animal deader. 

Some, like Daryl, obviously enjoy shooting big guns, and I am not critisizing them for that enjoyment.  A larger caliber in the hands of a good shot has certain advantages such as better blood trails and possibly more knockdown power.  Also, if there is a chance of running into a Grizzly or Brown bear it may give a certain sense of comfort.  On knockdown power I am not so sure.  In my younger days, an experienced hunter told me that if a deer is shot in an opening it will probably run to cover, regardless of what it is shot with. (This is shots to the lungs, not broken shoulders spines, etc.)  If it is 100 yards form cover it will run 100 yards, if 20 probably 20yards.  My experiences seem to verify that this is generally true in that most will run to cover before dropping. 

Just thought it would be fun to hear others experiences and thoughts.





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Southern Man posted this 16 April 2008

Hello Guys,I,m glad to see your talking about the 35 W. again.I shot mine yesterday ,The 1909 Mauser that was backing out the primers a bit ,using expanded 30-06 brass.I have to send out all my gunsmithing ,so I bought a box of factory ,Rem. 250 grn. sp ,10 shots avg.2456 fps,and no primer trouble.I reloaded those 10 two times from 1900-2280 fps with no problems.So I thought no big deal I'll just buy some 35 W. brass and forget about the 30-06 brass.The 35 brass came with the necks all dented up,so I sized it  with the die set the same as I sized the brass from the factory ammo,and got the same problems with the primers that I had with the 30-06 brass .All thoughts on this matter are very welcome.Since your also talking about Az. and LionsI'll pass on a story about them. I'd never even been through Az. when I booked a lion hunt with dogs  in 2006.I was due to hunt 5 days at the end of Nov.& first of Dec.The weather was bad here and I thought I,d get to warm my bones,if I got a lion or not.We were hunting out of Prescott and the day before the hunt it snowed on the Kiabab so we headed out a 10 pm and it was snowing so hard on a rez east of Flagstaff it took us until 3 am to get to the Kiabab.It was 3 degrees F.Good news was we cut a huge tom track just before daylight , and by the time we got the dogs collered and everything ready the sun was coming up and legal to dump the dogs.There was a Vet traning pups that found us just as we were turning loose and we let him dump his pups and come along. The lion went up a caynon out across the top of a Mtn. and over into a really nasty caynon.We found his kill,a big mule deer close to the top and figured he was treed.About that time we heard  a shot and figured it was a deer hunter.We made it to a big Pine tree and could tell the dogs had been treed there ,and found blood and fur so we strated tracking in the snow while part of the party went for a truck.When we found the lion he was ripping 10,000 dollar dogs to shreds and was gut shot.The ones that went for the truck ran up on a guy with a 3 month old baby in his back pack and his wife was about 15 min. behind him.They had heard the dogs tree, drove as close as they could get, the wife gut shot the lion ,and the baby was freezing to death so they just turned around and headed back.The Vet. was about 60 and had hunted lions in Az.all his life and said it was by far the bigest one he had ever seen .approx.170-180#.The lion had to be shot in defense of the dogs,not by me and I would'nt tag it.The woman wound up tagging it ,and it was a very bad scene when we all got together .The guy with the baby in the back pack was begging for his life ,the Vet. saved him and luckily all the dogs.The law in Az. is you have to follow the dogs and lion step for step,so the man and wife lost their hunting rights    , and got off lucky.We stayed out all the next night trying to cut another track,it got down to 15 below zero,we only found where a female with two grown kittens had killed a fork horn muley,and the dogs were in such bad shape we didnt bother running them.The snow had crusted over so we headed back to Prescott and when we got there we had been up 60 hours.  We started hunting the next morning about 30 miles from town and cold trailed a good tom to his kill ,a big 4x4 muley,and thought sure we would catch him there the next morning ,but when we got there a big boar black bear was on the kill.We trailed the lion for the next two days but never treed him. I hope none of you have ever had as long and depressing a drive home as I did back to Tennessee without a lion and hardly enough money for gas.So the way I feel about Az. is , it's such a magnifecent place I would go back in a heart beat . Southern Man

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giorgio de galleani posted this 14 April 2008

Theese modern Apaches want more than a blanket ,some beads and and a wee sip of rye wiskey.

The world is changing,and not getting better.

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giorgio de galleani posted this 14 April 2008

Arizona is more than a real place for me.She is a dream of western movies,deserts the grand canyon, and a country of a beauty that leaves me without words .

An old tango italian song says:

laggiù nell'arizona,

terra di sogni e di chimere,

se una chitarra suona,

cantano mille capinere. 

Down there in Arizona,land of dreams and of Chimeras,if a guitar is playing a thousands small birds  will sing.

Pleas do not search for logic in poems.

I am a Cow boy,living in the wrong century.Of course I love cast bullets and obsolete guns.And I am not a fan of this craze of small caliber guns.

As Sir Samuel Baker used to  say big bores are over the 12 bore rife.

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galenaholic posted this 14 April 2008

Thanks George. I see you're familiar with Arizona. I've pased through the San carlos Reservation on my way to an deer hunt over by Winslow. I checked out the price a while back to do an elk hunt on the San Carlos. They want even more for a bull hunt than on the White Mountain Reservation. In either case, you just about have to be in the same income bracket as Bill Gates.

The White Mountain Rez has some unguided cow elk hunts so I might look into one of those provided they're still within my retirement pay range. Just like Arizona, you have to try and draw a tag. I failed to draw an elk tag this year. It's been six years since I've done an elk hunt and that's six years too many.

We've had a few incidents of mountain lions coming into town and feeding off people's pets lately. I just might pick up an over the counter tag and see if I can collect me one. I did see a lot of sign during last year's deer hunt.

Paul B.

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giorgio de galleani posted this 10 April 2008

Dear Galenaholic,My 35 Whelen is a Rem 700 of recent manifacture and has a slow twist,1-16 if I recall exactly,so the piece liked 300gr bullets at 1600 fps,with a load of 16 grains of Nitrokemia Green Box Rex (hungarae)powder,no filler and magnum primers.This load is for target shooting

I must presume you won't find Rex powder at any general store from Apache Wells to San Carlos Reservation I'll tell you of my august roe deer hunting  project.

Shooting from a tree stand at distances under 150 meters,I wiil try for 1800fps with Vihtavuori 110 ,Finnish powder,made to duplicate your 2400,a powder praised by Elmer Keith and our friend Ed Harris.Not position sensitive and burns well with WW LR primers.

I hope to get that velocity and no leading with old wheel weights witout all that mess of heat treating.

I believe that the use of lighter bullets in the 35 Whelen is meaningless as the venerable .30-'06 shoots splendidly bullets up to 200-220 grains,bullets with a wonderful ballistic coefficient and penetration..

I have an RCBS 200 gr gas check bullet,with  a hopeless undersize nose,might shoot well in the 35 Rem. 

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Ed Harris posted this 09 April 2008

galenaholic wrote: Ed, my question for you pertains to your 1 pound of WW, 7 pounds of pure lead alloy...what concerns me is that 6 to 7 hour cooking of the bullets. I wonder if that thing will last for the time needed to heat them? I'm stuck with the toaster over as my wife absolutely will not allow me to “cook” bullets in her brand new oven. Too bad.  You have my sympathy.  I hope it's true love.

BTW I have my “own” oven which I use for HT bullets.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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galenaholic posted this 08 April 2008

Ok, I have a couple of questions here, one for George and on for Ed Harris.

George. I see you are using the Lyman #358009 bullet for the .35 Whelen. I've been trying to find a load that my rifles would like (I have three .35 Whelens.) but what limited time I've had to work with them makes me curious as to what load your are using? Might make it easier for me to get one that shoots well in my rifles.

Ed, my question for you pertains to your 1 pound of WW, 7 pounds of pure lead alloy.

I do my heat treating in a toaster oven set at a nominal 425 degrees. I say nominal because just moving the dial up a hair and the bullets slump. My normal alloy is 10 pounds of WW, one pound of linotype. one third cup of chilled bird shot and a three foot piece of 95/5 percent lead free solder. Sounds complicated but it makes and awfully nice bullet. Usually one hour in the toaster oven and a quick quench will giver a bullet that age hardens in a couple of weeks to about 30-31 on my LBT scale. I never thought about putting them in the freezer.

I guess what concerns me is that 6 to 7 hour cooking of the bullets. I wonder if that thing will last for the time needed to heat them? I'm stuck with the toaster over as my wife absolutely will not allow me to “cook” bullets in her brand new oven. I'm just wondering if maybe you have heard of other's experiences with the T/O?

Paul B.

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CB posted this 08 February 2008

I have hnuted with T/C Contenders and done well. I took a deer with a 243 a few years back, but have dis some fine hunting with rifles like 30-30s and 45-70.


To me it depends on the range between you and the game. For elk, moose and bear, I have my 300 RUM rifle, and I wanted it becuase I can do some shooting at 100 to 200 yards with a good kill shot.

For ground hogs and coyotes, I use what ever will dispatch them fastest and maybe leave a pile of fur and red goo.




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pls1911 posted this 02 February 2008

I reading this stream it seems a common thought that once shot game runs.

This is true enough with shot placement behind the shoulder.

Call me lazy.. if cant drop 'em where they stand, I don't pull the trigger.

My placement is the “T” where spine crosses shoulder, which allows enough margin for eroor. Mhis placement with cast bullets wastes little meat and assure recovery.

Deer, Elk, and tough old pigs to 200+ pounds...boom... plop... total penetration every time, through both shoulders

My favorite remains the 45-70 single shots ( Ruger, Sharps and Remingtons) with heat treated W-W gas checked flat nosed bullets 300 to 460 grains out to 150 yards. The heavier slugs let me find the “T” from any angle.... or three pigs at a pop if I can get 'em lined up at the corn trough.


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Southern Man posted this 21 December 2007

Hello Guys, Thanks for the help on the .35 looks like I'm going to need all I can get. I'm using a stantard RCBS 2 die set.I decided before I tried anything else I would try another brand cases and went to R-P and the ring went away, it was a ring and not a bulge with the F-C cases.Both brands are coming out 2.460",max length is 2.494".I fired some rounds with 57 then 55 grains of IMR 4831,then 47 grns of IMR 4895,with Hornady 250 ,and got enough primer protrusion to cause a sticky bolt lift.IF the chamber was set up for the longer .35 cases would that casuse this ,or do you think it is a head space problem period.I know I can buy some factory ammo and find out but if I'll have to make a trip to town and it's throwing good money towards bad if it's a head space problem anyway. Thanks for your help . Southern Man

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giorgio de galleani posted this 21 December 2007

Of course Buffalo George has a Rem 700 35 Whelen and I use either 35 cases or 06 cases.

I form them easily vith a Lee full lenght die with its tapered expander stem.

I lghtly neck turn the cases and use a Neil Jones neck sizer.

Shoot Lyman 280 gr GC bullet lubed in a 360 die,the nose is engraving in the lands

Very lucky occurrence indeed

My rem 700has a slow twist and likes speeds over 1600 fps .

Col  Whelen's offspring   is a very clever idea a caliber I like very much.

The shoulder is  big enough ,I have no headspace problems,and .38 pistol bullets must be at least 360.

 Merry  Chrismas and a Happy New Year ,Gioegio.

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Ed Harris posted this 20 December 2007

Best way I have found is to first use an RCBS .35 Brown-Whelen expander die. This expands out the shoulder and makes the case almost cylindrical. Then run cases through the regular .35 Whelen FL sizer to neck and properly form the shoulder.  Set up the die when you do this do that case enters with slight resistance on a stripped bolt. Outside neck turn to 0.012 to just clean up any thick spots, then stress relieve in a gas flame.  If you are anal retentive, then inside deburr flash holes with a No. 2 Long Center Drill and uniform primer pockets with the Whitetail or Sinclair tool.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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linoww posted this 19 December 2007

I just got an 1909 mauser .35 Whelen and am expanding FC 30-06 brass and getting a small ring at the neck, shoulder juncture that I can feel with my thumbnail.Do you know if that's normal or do you use factory brass? Southern Man



My Whelens are both factory Remingtons.I use old Den42 military brass to form my cases and it doesnt have the ring you are talking about.I annealed the cases just to be safe before necking them up on a Hornady eliptical expander.I did it by dipping them in my lead pot.I liked the 35 on hogs it put them down pretty quick.My best hunting shot was with it.My dad wounded one and it took us 1 hour to find it.When I did it took off  full"boar” down hill and to a logging trail.At the time i was running 60-70 mles per week(i was 25) so i was up for the chase.I ran after it for about 1/2 mile and finally realized” hey...I have a gun"I was just enjoying the chase.I got on the kneeling position and gave it a prostate check with a Speer 250.The shot was about 100yds.I know people have made better shots but it was my best.That would kill me these days.



"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Southern Man posted this 19 December 2007

George,I know the country you were in ,that could happen to anyone,for sure if your were over toward Maggie Valley or Cherokee.I do'nt just handgun hunt much,but I always carry one hunting or not.Usually an S&W,M-57 Mtn. Gun .41 mag loaded with 215 Keiths and 20.5 grn of IMR 4227,when I'm around home ,or an 1911 if I go to town.The .41 does a good job on most game.I had to put down a couple cows with it last winter, and at that range a .22 would have worked,but I have'nt recorved a bullet yet.I just got an 1909 mauser .35 Whelen and am expanding FC 30-06 brass and getting a small ring at the neck, shoulder juncture that I can feel with my thumbnail.Do you know if that's normal or do you use factory brass? Southern Man

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linoww posted this 19 December 2007

 I killed my 350# boar still hunting in the Cumberland Mtns. on a hog hunt and was lucky to get one that big.The others I've killed have been targets of oppurtuntiy.

Thats a nice pig.I grew up hunting feral hogs in N.California.Peolpe used to dog them to get rid of them.Then they became a “game” animal when the deer poulation went down. Then the population dropped and most of the bigger ones were gone,most we shot were in the 100-200# range.It is hard to figure out a behavior pattern with them,it seemed they just roamed to follow food.One area might get rooted up three nights in a row and then never get hit for another month.I found most of mine by just spending time in the woods.

I never got to shoot one with cast.I had my 44 mag rifle with cast all morning and then decided to hunt open country so i grabbed my 35 Whelen(long range gun) when I passed by camp .I headed out from camp and shot one at 50 yards.I was mad as hell as I wanted to try my 310g cast bullet on one!! I hunted with the same bullet in a Ruger SBH and hada very large boar trot past at about 100 yd.I didnt have a chance to try a shot and dad wouldnt do it with his rifle because he said “you wanted the be the big hangun hunter son"I ran after it down a slope and took a mean spill.I got up with scrapes,but no was mixed up in a pile of Oak leaves and rocks still sliding below me down the slope.One week later i found it witha metal detector.It was a loneley walk back to camp without a gun.That was my last handgun hunt.


"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Southern Man posted this 17 December 2007

Buffalo George,Thanks for awnsering my questions.I'm always interested in hearing about how other folks hunt diffrent game.Even more so when dogs are involved. The way you hunt hogs sounds alot like the way they hunt Bear here in the Smokey Mtns.I have'nt got to try it yet but have been learning all I can in order to get ready.Sounds like the only diffrence is, instead of free casting the dogs, they find a big bear track and are selective in which track they will run.A big bear in the Smokies will weigh 500# to 600# .Mainly the local Mtn. people own and handle the dogs,and the knowledge of where the bear will cross has been passed through the generations since Daniel Boone , then Davy Crockett hunted this area.So the dog owners will place hunters on stand before they turn loose the dogs.Some of these guys treat their dogs like family , like you and I do.When they turn loose ,they want the bear dead ASAP.Lots of these big bear are what they call walking bear, meaning they wo'nt bay or tree they just walk along and fight the dogs when they take a notion and then keep walking.I bought my Marlin 45-70 for this purpose and hog hunting.I just ordered an X-S brand peep sight for it , and am taking the scope off. I killed my 350# boar still hunting in the Cumberland Mtns. on a hog hunt and was lucky to get one that big.The others I've killed have been targets of oppurtuntiy.There's some rough country around here and the hogs mainly move at night is why I've been thinking of getting dogs just for hogs,and try not get to fond of them.I took my .375 H&H loaded with Lyman 375-449 this morning trying to get a white-tail doe,but the only two I saw, I could'nt tell if they were bucks or does , so I did'nt shoot. Good luck Southern Man

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giorgio de galleani posted this 17 December 2007

Dear Southern Man,

Boar hunting in  province Genoa Italy (with a catholic marxist & bambiist local administration) is strictly regulated ,we must join a team (team 68,Fascia & Loco)and hunt from the third sunday of september on wendsdays and sundays until we reach the bag of 7250 pigs . The number is emanated by a biology  oracle from Genoa University.The Authority is schizophrenic ,they are against game killing but they are greedily getting high licence fees and   hate to pay the damages the game give to the local landowners.

We have a dozen team dogs cared for by hillybillies, mostly beagles and italian segugio  Hounds),and we do have 2 or three casualties each year .The hounds have more courage than brains and when a hog is cornered  by two or three dogs they often attack it before the arrival of the dog driver. Sometimes dogs are carried away in hot pursuit into the next counties and get killed in road accidents . At dusk they know that the hunt is over and go home.They are not trained to come back when called by the driver. We are planning to buy some Maremmani hounds that are said to return more promptly to their masters. 

I own 5 english cocker spaniels and use them for upland game,they are trained to hunt near me and come back at once when called. They are kept in my home,sleep under my bed and have their own sofa in the kitchen.Losing one of them would be a tragedy,years ago I had a gordon setter,a faraway running dog who was killed by a car.spaniels have shorter legs and stay near me,under control.The way we hunt is the “braccata” the hogs are driven by the dogs against the shooters line.

We surround a zone  of thorny bush with  stand shooters   ,posted in strategic locations along the game trails,we have orders to stay in our post , and told  which direction we may shoot, We are all wearing orange jackets ,usually we do not see the  next shooters and are not allowed to  move around to collect the game without  getting permission from the team boss by walkie talkie.Only the hillybillies hound drivers are allowed  to shoot the bayed up hogs ,for obvious safety reasons.My team mates use mainly 30-06 and 308W semiauto rifles ,except me ,faithful  fan of the 45/70 .IN BOCCA AL LUPO we say here,Giorgio.

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Southern Man posted this 14 December 2007

Buffalo George, Congragulations on the hog.What type hounds do you guys use for hogs?Do you mainly shoot them on the run, or do they bay up?I broke my Mtn. Curs off hogs when they were pups, because coon and squirrel dogs are to valuable around here to be getting them cut up by hogs. I've been thinking of getting another pair for just hogs.I just bought a .35 Whelen on a 1909 Argentine Mauser action that I'm going to get Veral to build a mould for like your marlin mould.I've been having to work a lot since Thanksgiving, but after Sunday I'm off for 17 days and the blood is going to flow. Good luck. Southern Man

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giorgio de galleani posted this 14 December 2007

I 've killed another nice 80 lbs hog last week.he was running towards me hotly pursued by the hound Luna,a shot through the chest and he turned upside down on the spot kicking the air,so I gave him another to finish him at once.

The usual .45 wound channel with massive internal bleeding.The finishing shot fractured one kidney,tearing the nearby big arteries.

The gun is a 45/70 marlin 1895G  loaded with Veral's 400 marlin bullets,cast in ww air cooled not sized and alox lubed ,and enough Vihtavuori 110 to give 1350 fps.

I use a WGOS ghost ring peep sight and a red optic fiber front sight I got from Brownells,simple sturdy and cost effective for hunting in my thick woods.

The Genoa Province  Fish and Game authority wants some 900 more boars dead ,so hunting season is still going on.



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Southern Man posted this 02 December 2007

Hello Idaho Sharpshooter, What alloy were you using in your .416? Thanks Southern Man

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