Debating alloys ..... 107 years ago

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  • Last Post 20 May 2016
mtngun posted this 20 May 2016

The Wolfe annotated version of Dr. Mann's “The Bullet's Flight” includes Harry Pope's comments in the margin.    On pages 122-123, Mann discusses bullet alloy and concludes that pure lead is the most accurate alloy:

Unremitting tests, year after year, demonstrated that a pure lead bullet ... outshot all others. .. Soft bullets ... did outshoot, when care was taken, any alloyed one. .. Why will not the hard alloyed bullets which, it seems, should keep their balance better because less deformed, do better shooting and give better groups?

Harry Pope responds: They do! .. always one _?__ and powder load.   No search for best combination.   When at Milford Jan 1914 I shot my 33/220 with 1:25 alloy .... Frank had never seen such shooting.

I thought it was funny that 107 years ago shooters were arguing about which alloy was best, with each side certain his alloy was right and the other guy's alloy was wrong.   :D :D :D http://www.oldbike.eu/centurycolumbia/?page_id=431>Pope on Mann: He was absolutely honest, and the greatest experimenter I ever knew. Nothing he ever said was untrue, and he tried everything. I still have a letter from him telling of getting 6,000 feet a second muzzle velocity. I don't know how he did it.  ... All of that would have been in his second book if he had lived to finish it.

Pope guaranteed that any of his muzzle loading rifles, with the exception of the 25 caliber, would shoot into 2 inches at 200 yards ... Pope himself has one 200 yard target that shows 10 shots grouping within 5/8 of an inch, center to center.

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bandmiller2 posted this 20 May 2016

How much more do we know now.?? I believe we have lost ground. Frank C.

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.22-10-45 posted this 20 May 2016

Mann was experimenting with a bore (land-land) dia. bullet. This snug fitting bullet was breech-seated in front of case & the pure lead expanded nicely to fill grooves. Last fall I did the same with an original Ballard A-1 Mid-Range in .40-63 Everlasting. I used Ideal bullet 406150 cast soft from 40-1 lead/tin alloy. I only seated last band in case over a 1/16” veg. fiber wad, over 70grs. Swiss 1 1/2. The bore dia. on this rifle is .404” & I could feel resistance as the snug fitting bullet was pushed home. The very first time out with this new to me old rifle I managed to shoot a 1” group at 100yds. So I know these soft bore dia. bullets shoot.

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mtngun posted this 20 May 2016

That's good shooting, .22 10-45.

Right, Mann favored a type of breech-loading while Pope preferred loading from a false muzzle.

One thing that Mann overlooked, perhaps, is the throat design.   Many of the cartridges of that day had no throat or leade to speak of.    Breech-loading and false muzzle loading were ways to get around the throat problem.

Anyway, I thought it was funny that the two of them disagreed about alloys.   I imagine that if people are still shooting cast bullets 100 years from now, they'll still disagree on which alloy is best.  :D  :D  :D

Another interesting tidbit in the foreword of Mann's book suggests that ol' Harry favored slow twists:.

Charlie Pope:  ... the contract to make those heavy barrels for the Olympic team.   They were Springfields. Neal Knox: I wonder if those were the barrels ordered in 1-10 twist, which was standard for the 30-06.   Your dad made them 1-12 twist.   He said “I'll make them on the outside the way you want them, but I'll make them inside like I want them."  Charlie Pope:  I don't know.  But I do know this: when we closed his shop, among the barrels was an unfinished 30-06 barrel which was the one Roy Dunlap put on an action for me.    That was 1-in-14 twist.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 20 May 2016

there is an interesting system used by a. neidner back then which has always interested me ... basically a nose rider with just a short base of groove diameter ... i shot a 22 baby neidner for a time and it was the most accurate cast 22 i have shot ...ha, joeb...it was with 225438 ... eat your heart out !! oh, on a high wall smithed by neidner ....and with neidner dies !!

fpr you collectors, it was borrowed by me and the owner offered to sell it to me for $260 .... being a poor farm boy i didn't have the cash ... wish now i had stole some chickens to raise the money ...

ken

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John Alexander posted this 20 May 2016

Just shows that there is more than one way to skin a cat.

John

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M3 Mitch posted this 20 May 2016

Several years ago I saw a Pope mold for sale at a gun show, I think in Colorado. I didn't have the money for the mold, but I did pick it up, perhaps hoping a few atoms of the Old Master's spirit would rub off on me.

Unfortunately I didn't experience a step improvement in my casting, loading, or shooting skills. I tried anyway.

Now I wish I had bought that mold even if it meant eating ramen noodles for a while...

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45 2.1 posted this 20 May 2016

Some perspective is required here.......... different types of shooting require different methods, alloys and pressures. Sure, there are different methods of skinning the cat, but not all of them are satisfactory or bloodless for the person attempting it.

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