LYMAN 225438 LENGTH

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  • Last Post 10 June 2016
joeb33050 posted this 17 May 2016

Can someone tell me how long a Lyman 225438 bullet is? Anyone have a mold for sale? Thanks; joe b.

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John Alexander posted this 17 May 2016

I have a mold I would sell but it and all the 438 bullets are packed in one of the 60 boxes in the basement so I can't come up with the length.  I do know that it shot OK in 14” twists but not as well as the 415 for me.  I can't remember if I ever shot it in my 16” twist Bee. John

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joeb33050 posted this 17 May 2016

John Alexander wrote: I have a mold I would sell but it and all the 438 bullets are packed in one of the 60 boxes in the basement so I can't come up with the length.  I do know that it shot OK in 14” twists but not as well as the 415 for me.  I can't remember if I ever shot it in my 16” twist Bee. JohnSo, John, does this mean that you're not going down cellar and going through the 60 boxes to measure a bullet length? (The bullets are in the 59th or 60th box, no matter how you pick.) Oh well, anyone else?

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fa38 posted this 17 May 2016

My double cavity 225438 measures .498 the first time I put the caliper on it and it re-measured at .499 or .500 the second time. I did not have any bullets cast so could not measure one of them.

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joeb33050 posted this 17 May 2016

fa38 wrote: My double cavity 225438 measures .498 the first time I put the caliper on it and it re-measured at .499 or .500 the second time. I did not have any bullets cast so could not measure one of them.Thanks. Greenhill says this bullet will stabilize in a 15” twist. Ken; is there a 15” or faster rf bbl in that pile? Thanks; joe b.

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Paul Pollard posted this 17 May 2016

I pulled a Remington .22 LR bullet and it measures .492” long. What does Greenhill say?

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billglaze posted this 17 May 2016

Joe, I calipered several 438's from ca. 1952 mould. They were .491” with no gas check. Originally, in my Swift they were the best shooters--all shooting at 100 yds. I don't know the twist that Win. was using in the Stainless barrel, which was iron plated so it could be blued. Sporter weight, it shot wonderfully well, I thought. Doesn't work in my present Douglas barrel. For some unexplainable reason, I don't believe I've ever checked for the twist. I'd better do so; this time around, with this rifle, best seems to be the 415 with 4756 or Titegroup. Bill

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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joeb33050 posted this 18 May 2016

Paul Pollard wrote: I pulled a Remington .22 LR bullet and it measures .492” long. What does Greenhill say?With a .492” long .224” bullet, 15.298” or 15". The Greenhill workbook is attached, I hope. Go to “CALCULATOR". JOE B.

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John Alexander posted this 18 May 2016

I have found the Greenhill to be slightly conservative for CBs at the usual speeds (constant closer to 160.) If rimfire bullets are “right on the edge” according to Greenhill, I would bet that the 436 will stabilize in a 16” twist. Ken, Haven't some rimfire BResters tried 17” twists? John

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 18 May 2016

yes some top barrels in 22 rf were 17 twist.

ken

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joeb33050 posted this 18 May 2016

The attached lets you calculate twist using Greenhill, Dell, Miller Powley and Greenhill with velocity. It accepts changes to about everything. Even calculates RPM.

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John Alexander posted this 18 May 2016

So if a 17” twist RF will win matches with a .491” bullet that shouldn't be stable, in a 16” according the magical estimators, it should stabilize a 438 of virtually the same length.  I'm now giving odds.

John 

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rmrix posted this 18 May 2016

As a reminder, marginally stable bullets can be very accurate, especially indoors. Outside, where the wind blows, daily conditions might turn the same accurate load into poo-poo compared to it's stable competitors.

I have a 225 438 mold to sell but as I recall it is used in every sense of the word. It may respond to a tune-up.

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joeb33050 posted this 18 May 2016

rmrix wrote: As a reminder, marginally stable bullets can be very accurate, especially indoors. Outside, where the wind blows, daily conditions might turn the same accurate load into poo-poo compared to it's stable competitors.

I have a 225 438 mold to sell but as I recall it is used in every sense of the word. It may respond to a tune-up.$?

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joeb33050 posted this 18 May 2016

Perhaps this helps.

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mtngun posted this 18 May 2016

Agree with John that Greenhill is too conservative.   I've found the Miller formula to be more useful for cast bullets.

Miller says a 17” twist with a 0.5” long 45 grain bullet would have a stability factor of 1.2, which is about as low as I care to recommend.

Fromhttp://www.bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/> the Miller calculator on the Berger website.    If you don't know the BC, just guess, it does not affect the stability calculation.    Bear in mind that the bullet lengthens when you size it.   Also allow for the thickness of the gas check.     Even though I live at 4600 feet elevation, I always calculate at sea level and 32 degrees F to err on the conservative side, since someone reading my post may live at sea level, and temperatures during hunting season are often around freezing.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 18 May 2016

as far as the 17 twist barrels, maybe they work because the top rf matches are at 50 yards ... rigs are optimized for those games .

don't forget 22 rf has used 16 twist for millions of rifles ... 1.2 stability notwithstanding ...

ken

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joeb33050 posted this 18 May 2016

Ken Campbell Iowa wrote: as far as the 17 twist barrels, maybe they work because the top rf matches are at 50 yards ... rigs are optimized for those games .

don't forget 22 rf has used 16 twist for millions of rifles ... 1.2 stability notwithstanding ...

kenStability is determined by, in order, bullet length, bullet density, velocity, then in lesser amounts, air density, bullet shape, shoe size...

I think 22 rf bullets are close to lead = high density, and mine have a lot of lino = lower density.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 18 May 2016

” 22 rf are almost pure soft lead “

....probably that is why they will never be just real accurate ...

what the heck are we missing ??

ken

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Larry Gibson posted this 18 May 2016

My 225438 bullets measure .515 with GC and sized .224. My Applied Ballistics Miller Formula software show a Sg of 1.47 (1.4 being fully stable) out of a 16” twist barrel at 1500 fps. At 1000 fps the Sg is 1.28 yet I have shot thousands of them at that velocity since '75 out of Savage 23s and a Ruger #3, all with 16” twists. This was mostly done out to 50 yards or so on small ground squirrels. Accuracy was good enough for that. Past 50 yards, usually around 70 - 80 yards accuracy went south (>1.5") or at least no longer good enough for the small ground squirrels.

However, since getting a Contender 10” barrel in the mid '80s with a 14” twist, a 21” Contender barrel and now a Savage M40 with a 14” twist accuracy is excellent at 100 yards since the 225438 has an Sg of 1.41 down at 600 fps. I have not thoroughly tested the '438 bullet because in the 14” twists I've been using the '462 Lyman bullet in my faster twist Hornets. It requires 2000 fps for an Sg of 1.4 in a 14” twist and maintains a 1.41 Sg down at 800 fps in the 12” twist of my M700V .223.

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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rmrix posted this 18 May 2016

LMG wrote: My 225438 bullets measure .515 with GC and sized .224.

LMGYup, can't forget to add the length of the GC. Your experience is similar to mine. That is in general, minimally stabilized bullets can be accurate but as the distance increases or the conditions get switchy (think wind sheer),  a little more twist helps.

In my main game, BPCR Creedmoor (800y - 1000y) I have come to believe a constant in the stability formula  of 135 improves your chances of both hitting the target and cutting round holes when you do.   This means spinning up those big 45 cal bullets a little faster than in the old days.  I shoot rifles in 18, 17, and 16 twist and that is a faster than Greenhill.

Joe - give me a day or two and I will dig out that mold and have a look at it.  I assume you would like a good mold that produces accurate bullets.  Mine may or may not meet your requirement.

Michael Rix

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