It's time to figure out how to use DU. DoD say it's safe etc. Unfortunately the m.p. is about 400 degrees F less than iron. With a half-life of about a billion years I am sure it's safer than Perrier. With the cancers seeming to start in CA and spreading to the rest of the nation, now it's steel shot for upland birds, I am more than happy with friendly AZ.Density etc. is about like Pb but making it of course, there are these tougher than usual issues. So far I see the only difference between the California and Mexican Condor are wing tags of the CA ones. It seems some CA birds have been sighted migrating back to Mexico, I'm sure that's a good thing. There just doesn't seem to be the road kill the northern birds require and some have be run over too. Now for loading data with Sages 85g bullets and JeffNZ's bullet lube printing 1MOA was simple with 15g 2400 and the 257 WM. the pill seems to copy the Loverin design with a flat nose and many grooves for tube mag guns. Charlie
What alloy
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- Last Post 21 October 2016
Do you buy your peyote or grow tour own?
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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My favorites are the guys who talk about the 4.5 billion year half-life of U-238 as if that's a bad thing, like material with a shorter half-life is safer. It doesn't help that side's arguments that they don't understand even the basics of radioactive decay.
Not my words.... but well said from YABOB
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My favorites are the guys who talk about the 4.5 billion year half-life of U-238 as if that's a bad thing, like material with a shorter half-life is safer. It doesn't help that side's arguments that they don't understand even the basics of radioactive decay.
Not my words.... but well said from YABOB
Always like your posts/analogies. I laugh & cry at the same time. Ah . . . California. As a former resident of that state I must say that I miss it terribly at times. I lived on the Monterey Peninsula for eight years. Read all of Steinbecks works and watched the City put a bust of John on Cannery Row . . . something Mr. Steinbeck said never to do. Did some rehab work on his Grandmothers house.
Loved the ocean & sat, at times for hours watching the waves come in at Asilomar beach. I would wake in the morning to the sound of the seals barking down near the wharf. Yep, I lived in la-la land that dripped with “old” money. To the point where I was sick of it. Sick of being around those living in a fairy tale world. So far from the real world that they would succumb to anaphylactic shock should they emerge from the peninsula privacy bubble.
I remember one day in the early eighties I was sitting out on my front porch in Pacific Grove cleaning my deer rifle after a hunting trip for black tailed deer in the El Dorado Nat'l forest. I spied my neighbor, Careena boldly & deliberately walking from her house to mine as if on a mission. She walked up & asked me what that was in my hands. A baiting question of course. I said; “It's a gun Careena” She asked what I did with that gun (another baiting question) I said; “I eliminate species Careena". She immediately, In a huff, turned & left, never to return.
But . . . not all Californians are air heads as some on the east coast would have one believe. There's a lot of rugged country in CA & a lot of rugged people to go along with that. A lot of “good ol' boys” that would fit right in in West Virginia. I hunted hogs with some of them out in Carmel Valley. Good, simple people who don't go along with what's coming out of Sacramento.
Pat
If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.
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I was born in California and lived there for 50 years. I loved the coast and the fishing and diving not to mention the proceeds from same. I hunted hogs and birds and deer inland and had a great old time. But, the state will always be run from LA and San Francisco where the air head population is predominate. Those two areas will always set the tone and execution of the game and environmental laws. As if they aren't dumb enough they re-elect governors who failed them miserably and elect politicians to new positions who were removed from office for legal cause. It is really a shame that the inmates now run the asylum. They have destroyed a once beautiful state.
B.E.Brickey
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I am a California denier. I have only seen it on TV.
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Well it looks like DU is out. However, new to me are polymer coated bullets... may be in. I've been performing every test I can think of with these colored pills gifted to me these last weeks. Hope that word is Okay. The barrel remains spotless. The coating remains bonded where you thought it may have been ablated. Powder burns on the base of the bullet can be sanded off to expose the original color. So far feeding problems are no longer an issue. Pure lead pills take the riflings without skidding with maximum loads, smashed on impact the coating remains intact. From sledge hammer tests to vaporizing loads this idea seems to have a great future. Colored (whoops) the beasts are easily sorted. Even gas checks may a thing of the past too, those tests remain. So far due to cartridge size, velocities have been not much over 2400fps, I am planing to do 2900 plus.- Charlie
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I am a California denier. I have only seen it on TV.
Now that's funny.
Cheers from New Zealand
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Not really Jeff, To too many people out there it only exists in the ether. Either on TV , the Movie Theatre, or the Internet. Brodie
B.E.Brickey
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I spent 3 days consulting with a Polymer chemist. PhD in 1952 13 years with DOW Chemical as a salaried inventor with average of 3 patents a year. Finally retiring from NMIMT.
As posted earlier I indicated I would test the limits of the PC bullets. Not using my chronograph I can just indicate that the pills were 125 grains checked and coated and sized to .311. Using my Mod 70 featherweight 30-06 with 50 gr of 3031 I was able to punch crisp clean accurate hole is thin pastry boxes to check for stability issues.
My concerns were that I wanted to understand from a chemistry stand point what some including myself are observing. My biggest concern was abrasion. Next was the strength of materials like polyethylene polymers. Two of the things I learned were that inorganic pigments can give rise to higher tensile strength. The coatings would not be abrasive. My test results indicated that a coating of about .002 thick before sizing is adequate to significantly increase the shear strength to take and keep the riflings. With iron sights them seemed to do as well this rifle has performed in its long history.---Charlie more later
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The stability of the bullets I launched at I consider hypervelocity for lead I found no instance of wobble or key holing. Due to the distance to a testing range I will not be able to look for a super accurate loadings. The barrels are left spotless and lead free. The color coating is intact with no lead showing in the rifling engravings. Cooking lumps of paint material the result was a very hard and tough examples bullet size pieces of cured polymer.
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I dropped the charge from 50 g 3031 to 48g and saw a marked improvement in accuracy of the 135g pb bullet. Sized to .311 with no issues of leading I will treat the castings more like .308 jacketed one and size the coated bullets down to .308 and hunt for and accurate loading. Seems like I'm reinventing the wheel. Still the coated bullets show great promise. Using 5.0g Bullseye and the 200 g 452 in the auto the pistol shot like any other loading and there were no signs of inaccuracy or leading w/o any lube etc. Again no chonograph due to my Mini-14 -Charlie
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Charlie: Good to have another coated bullet fan onboard. I've just received a couple new 22cal. moulds and will be running some tests with PC'd bullets in my 22-250s and 223s. In some previous tests I've used PC'd bullets as much as .002 smaller than groove diameter (762X54R) without leading, but have found the best accuracy with the coated bullets sized over bore size. Each gun likes it's own thing but if they chamber comfortably I've found that sizing to the same size or larger than you use for lubed bullets most accurate. Gp
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My experience with the tiny 110g jacketed bullets shot more like a shotgun, or a MINI 14.. I blasted the tiny painted bullets to the book velocity to check for stability only. Accuracy was as expected eg. poor. With little experience with the 130 gr I expect to see some improvement with now the same brass, carefully weighed 48 g 3031 charges in the '06 and as before but now sized to .308 with the .306 expander ball. Why the 130g? it's the only plain base one I have access too. Worst case I'll put my line of FreeChex tools with these plain base bullets out of business! On the base of the bullets I find only burnt powder residue and when sanded off the paint is still there.
I do remind myself sometimes of the engineer indicating when being hanged with a old rope that it's likely to break.
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Bullet Lyman 311410 base metal very soft 135g. Charge 48g 3031, sized .308 nose first. Win Magnum primer, Win Spr brass FL sized. Flush seating to the last driving band. Rifle Belgium Browning BAR Grade IV 30-06 new. Published velocity 2975f/s Powder coated with Prismatic Blue. Three shot group .375 inches at 60 feet indoor range. Meticulously loaded the very soft castings would shrink to .3075 due to neck tension. the shake and bake method was used to create the most uniform coating. The base metal should be harder due to loading and feeding and possible rifle recoil deformation in magazine semi-autos. Loading the cartridges needs the patience of the bench rest shooter at a minimum.
The powder coated pills show be great potential with the very tough polymer jacket coating. Having only fired ten rounds there is no leading in this rifle. Many more in other platforms and still no indication of fouling. - Charlie
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I am now testing a bullet made with a NOE mold. It is a gas check free spitzer. The castings are perfect and the bullets when un coated are perfect in every respect. Miniscule ticks are noticeable in a run out dial before sizing and vanish when sized to .308. Gifted polymer coated and uncoated castings I found any paint drips, sags, or minor imperfections in the coating process yielded plinking rounds only. Spun in a watchmaker lathe the tiny blobs resulted in a runout of .015 inches with the polymer almost impossible to even out. Using a random sample of ten castings which appeared to be treatable to true I gave up after only three bullets could be trued to runout less than .002in. The Lyman 311410 did not exhibit coating problems. The NOE bullet with its crisp sharp base and pointed nose may be causing problems due to any static charge dissipation due the electric field strength at those edges approaching infinity, I am guessing. Using the shake method with the airsoft balls some casting had to be taken out rubbed clean to get a even coating to coated at all. Tapping any excess globs off on the Rubbermaid bowl before setting the delicately in the kiln on the baking sheet gave me the most uniform coating resulting in little or no runout. Little meaning less than .0025 near the nose after sizing again. About 80% had nil indications when using a dial indicator. Tiny skirts were removed from the base from the nose first sized bullets after coating, something I should have done in first place.
The shake and bake method so far had yielded the best coverage. I hope some one could come up with a misting method like used in a paint booth where a cloud of paint particles are uniformly attracted to the castings. Working hours I now have about 25 casting to test that mimic any jacketed flat based Spitzer.
Help!--- Charlie
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speaking as one of those obnoxious on-lookers ...
i would be interested in a test to see if uneven coatings have any effect on accuracy ...that is:: do we have to worry about that at a 1.5 + moa level of accuracy ? if not, it would let us concentrate on other aspects of * coatings * ...
just wandering ...
ken
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The notion here is to test perfect bullets where otherwise the loadings that have proved accurate. Stability issues at what we all thought and ridiculously high velocities for cast bullets were not apparent. Rather than hunt for problems in the loadings with inaccuracy I'd like to start with as close to perfect as possible. Find and r.m.s dispersion and then shoot the plinkers. So I am using the ideas written about in “Rifle Accuracy Facts", by H.Vaughn. As I stated earlier I have not seen leading or funny looking holes in the targets at books velocities over 3000fps. Auto loaders are not my first choice for bench rest testing either which is all i have at my disposal presently. -Charlie
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NOE # HTC309-153 castings were loaded an shot with jacketed bullet loadings. Weighed in at 154.5 g literally all castings were with in .2 grains of each other. To me that is amazing. 49 gr of 3031 was clearly not a good load, there were no indications or these gas check free pills showed any kind of upset. Here in the Peoples Republic testing will go slow likely switching powders to 4895 or Varget. There are still no signs of fouling as just the usual soot on the patches when cleaned. -charlie
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Tests with 48 g of 4895 with the NOE 154.5 g bullet and the Hornady 150 shot differently at the target at 45 yards. The Belgium BAR put the Hornady bullets in the same hole, while the NOE's grouped about 3/8 inch 4 inches to the right. The jacketed rounds were shot first then 3 rapid firings of the NOE. The coating was a single coat of prismatic bubba blue on the plain base rounds. Previously two coats had given better performance. Book velocities listed were 2450 to 2700 fps depending in the manual. This concludes my testing from near zero velocity to over 3000 fps. Listed tensile strengths of the polymers are far higher than lead alloys.----Charlie
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thanks charlie ... more good stuff ...
if we use enough paint maybe we will get a picture ...
ken
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