Hi, All, Yet another “Newbie” here, to the Forum, but an old caster (since the late 1950's!) I've run into something weird I'd much appreciate some help and feedback with-- I bought a 5 gal. bucket of wheel weights, cheap, and noticed it had some of the new type of adhesive weights in it, which I suspect are zinc or “Pot Metal” (Zamac) I discarded all of those, and melted down a batch of weights, scooped out the steel clips, and fluxed the pot with Beeswax, twice, and added a little 95/5 solder, and 1/2 pound of 45/55 bar solder-- I was trying to run off a batch of Lee (2 cavity) 105 Gr. .357 SWC bullets, with the metal up to temperature and heated mold blocks. I couldn't get the cavities to fill completely, no matter how hard I tried! The bullets weren't “wrinkled", but just refused to completely fill the cavities. I scrubbed them out with mineral spirits, gas, alcohol and even Ether, re-smoked the molds numerous times, all to no avail! I must own 35 or 40 molds, most of which are Lee 2 and 6 cavity, and never ran into this before. Is it possible that today's wheel weight metal has changed it's formula to include some zinc, or other bad metal that could be causing this? (I remember reading in Lee's 2nd edition Reloading book that the smallest quantity of zinc in your mixture will contaminate the whole pot of metal, and render it useless for casting. (What's puzzling is that the melting temperature of Zinc is FAR higher than any lead derivate, and I never run my Lee pot any higher than #7 or #8. (For the first time in my life, I even bought 16 lbs. of #2 metal from Missouri Bullet company, to try, haven't gotten to it yet--) Anyone have any Ideas?Thanks for any feedback, and Happy and Healthy New Year to all!Fred (A.K.A. “Honcho"
Contaminated Wheel Weights?
- 2.2K Views
- Last Post 15 January 2016
It takes less than 1/2 of 1% Zinc in a Lead/Tin bullet alloy to begin reducing the quality of mold fill out. Higher and higher temps help a little. adding more Lead or Tin doesn't help at all until you get the Zinc well below 1/2 of 1% in the alloy. It is easy to Zinc contaminate a huge lot of metal with a tiny amount of Zinc.
A Lee Pot on #7 or 8 will easily alloy zinc to your mix when the Zinc source is from WheelWeights. 625 F. and no higher for even a second with precise temp control and Zinc chunks will only float on your mix and not alloy immediately, but pull them fast as they will begin to slowly dissolve at ~625+.
If Zinc alloyed into your mix, you did it with sufficient heat or it wouldn't have happened.
Gary
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Fred, its probably nothing you did wrong, wheel weights are recycled many times and the manufacturers are not that fussy what goes in the pot as they most likely injection cast a simple shape. I would isolate that batch don't waste any more good ingrediants trying to correct it. Take it to a scrap dealer and make your best deal be it sale or swap for other lead. Frank C.
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All “adhesive” wheel weights I've run across were dead-soft and to all appearances pure lead. I'm more concerned by the amount of Sn you (purposely or inadvertently) added, and UN-knowingly may have imbalanced the Sn/Sb ratio to where Sn equaled or exceeded Sb. I've done that myself - with the same results you describe. What's more, by increasing the pot temp. incrementally until I began to get good fill - then I began getting really severe “gassing” which left large areas of highly-frosted but considerably reduced diameter. To correct it, I had to add an incredible amount of wheel weights (having high Sb and very low Sn) to re-constitute a useable Sb - rich alloy. Altho I commonly read that “it can't be done", heavy zinc contamination CAN be precipitated out of the melt by lowering the melt temperature to where it is barely molten, allowing it to sit totally UN-disturbed for an hour, then carefully skimming the surface. Re-melt & flux, and repeat the process. Some zinc contamination may remain, but casting quality will improve considerably. Thereafter, this slightly contaminated alloy can be added a bit at a time to known-good alloy to use it up. This is the same strategy by which copper contamination may be corrected, and my results have been excellent. (At least TRY it - you may be delighted with the results.)
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And, Yes, Zinc begins to “sublimate” into molten bullet-alloy fairly quickly. (Crushed Antimony can be alloyed into Lead by the same method.) When rendering WW, I watch carefully and skim off the clips as soon as possible. Even so - the odd zinc weight with the clips may show bright pits forming - meaning that a trace of zinc is already in the rendered alloy. So far it has only been a problem that one depressing instance. (A valuable “learning experience").
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Hi, All, many thanks for the prompt and informative replies! I suspected that having zinc in the alloy was the problem, but what I can't figure out is how it got into the mix. Usually you can spot the difference in the Wheel Weights and tell which ones are not made of zinc mix, but as you all seemed to imply, that common wheel weights are no longer trustworthy in that they may contain zinc, and there is no way to tell if they do! (Anyone want a bucket of wheel weights?) I've used WW for many years, and never ran across that problem before. I thought I was able to spot and discard the ones that were containing zinc, by the shape of the weight. I'll try all your suggestions, and thanks again for the feedback-- it seems that casting bullets has changed a lot, from when I began, so many years ago! Cheers, Fred
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Oh! Boy! Just when I thought it was safe to go back into the water! - The fact that you have been casting bullets for so long - may be part of the problem? I didn't think about new wheel weights maybe having SOME Zinc already in them. But it makes sense that maybe they might. Extremely few things in life ACTUALLY ever get “better", over time, so us gray-beards can no longer assume that anything is still as reliable as it once was? Then - there's a lot of metal junk around now that may look, feel, thumb-nail test, like lead - but really isn't. And buying scrap lead is a big “crap-shoot", anyway. Somebody just now mentioned selling a batch of bad alloy to a scrap-dealer. Get Real! You know that the dealer is likely to just sell it to the next bullet caster that moseys by.
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Your difficulty really captivates my interest. I read back thru the topic from the beginning, and am struck by your mention of all the materials you have used to “clean” your mould blocks with. With respectful trepidation, I'll mention that they are ALL petroleum hydrocarbons! May I suggest that you merely use a bronze chamber brush (actually, I prefer stainless steel brushes - but they are becoming increasingly more difficult to find) for the same caliber, (even if it is used, it will be completely de-greased, also) generously soaked and turned in the cavity (place the brush in one block and turn it while gently closing the other block against it - and remove it the reverse way.) Do NOT! reverse the rotation!) in a heavy solution of ordinary “grease-fighter” dish-wash detergent. Then rinse under the tap and dry by any means at hand. (Please don't blow this off summarily. It took me nearly a decade to discover it.) All your methods “worked” - to a certain extent, but when I began cleaning my blocks this way - the improvement was astonishing. (I don't recall EVER having to “smoke” a cavity since I began doing it this way.). Just Say'n--------
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FWIW,
A fellow caster is the scrap metal business tells me that Asian made WW's are running about 3% zinc, up from less than 0.5% ten years ago.
Tin is approaching zero and antimony less than 2% of most US made WW's. These are fast disappearing in the PNW due to state government bans.
While we no longer smelt lead metal from ore in the US, there are several facilities that process scrap lead into metal quality good enough to make batteries. These also supply the commercial bullet makers.
My opaque ball tells me home bullet casters will all be buying alloys from commercial businesses in 20 years.
Ric
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Ric - Ever notice the dire warnings about salvaging bullet metal from modern automotive batteries ("Lead - Cadmium")? It's ESSENTIALLY true, of course - and certainly applies to the “planned obsolescence” of those nightmares that General Motors has been foisting on the public for half a century.) But with “real” batteries with posts, anything outside of the plastic cases is beautiful bullet alloy. (Pair of large ViseGrips, and twist it off!). “Dispose of it properly"? Guess who benefits most from THAT? Sadly, even we bullet casters are targeted by “factoids” originating from corporate interests. Quite recently, I got paranoid about the possibility that the lead in my blood might be excessive, considering the amount of lead melting and bullet-casting I've done - and the decades that I've been doing it. My PCP (Primary Care Physician) agreed, and arranged for the tests. As one might expect, mine was “significant” (Hey! Medical Profssionals have “rice bowls” just like the rest of us!) - and so I was put on medications and a testing program to track it. After 6 months with no reduction (and no lead-melting or bullet-casting in the meantime) nothing improved. Only then, and with further research, I discovered that my serum lead level was not only “normal” - but that it is actually lower than the average for kids in elementary school! (Where do they get it? Well ---? Probably we all actually need some - and it has been natural since Adam & Eve?) Question EVERYTHING! Just because we are fortunate to have some really knowledgeable members in certain regards, they have been propagandized and stampeded in other aspects just like everyone else has been. Do your OWN research and investigation. “Figures don't lie - but Liars “figure". Just scroll back up to the CBA Forum Header. “Could it be that we are firearm related?” Damn Tootin that it is!
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"Do your OWN research and investigation."
Mustafa,
There are things that I do that other shooters think are dangerous. I have done my own research and experimentation and made my own decisions. I have never found it useful to try to change someone's opinion when they believe in witches, ghosts or big foot. My father also told me: “A man has to kill his own snakes in his own way.” So you decide when, how and if you want to kill snakes.
While I have never be able to reduce zinc or copper concentration by the precipitation method, others have. Hopefully Mr. Wahl will be able to find a use for his alloy. Mine I sold to a guy for the keel on the sailboat he was building.
Ric
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Mr. Wahl. Forgive me for my social awkwardness. The First Thing I should have done was to Welcome you to the Forum ( and to the CBA ). Obviously, your opening question is one that many of us have had - and confonted in several different ways. What you will find here, will likely be several differing options. You may have to test them all - but one or more of them will answer your needs. WELCOME!
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This is what I would do with that batch of lead. Cast it into 9MM Luger for my S&W M&P used for 3-Gun and USPSA or .38 Spl. for Cowboy. What I'm getting at is that it depends on what you're going to do with them. If you're shooting at 15” x 20” steel plates, man sized silhouettes, or tin cans on a fence post, I wouldn't worry about it.
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I'am about as cheap an old yankee as you will find, but I won't waste my time with contaminated lead mixes. Life is too short to fight with those problems. Scrap it or make fishing sinkers. Frank C.
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Many casters face unknown scrap mysteries, I have too and tossed batches of contaminated metal. I find the best way to navigate around the problem is to simply limit inventory choices. Soft lead scrap reclaimed from jacketed bullets contains no Zinc but is generally ~2% Antimonial Lead. I use this soft scrap as pure lead in bullet alloy formulas. Sometimes I get certified pure lead also and treat it the same. I can get old Linotype scrap locally but I would buy it from Rotometals in ingots if I needed to. I limit my entire casting metal to 1.) soft pure. 2.) Linotype. 3.) Certified #2 alloy.
I can mix any hardness from pure lead to pure Linotype and get any BHN in between with arithmetic and checking with my Lee Hardness Test Kit. If your budget won't allow a hardness tester, keeping inventory selection types small simplifies making arithmetic easy and very accurate using the basic lead hardening formula listed at Rotometals:
Basic Rules for Hardening Lead-
For every 1% additional tin, Brinell hardness increases 0.3. For every 1% additional antimony, Brinell hardness increases 0.9. For a simple equation, Brinell = 8.60 + ( 0.29 * Tin ) + ( 0.92 * Antimony )
I'm no math teacher, but that is 5th grade math and you should be fine if your inventory is appropriately simple. It is the hardness of your bullet alloy that is matched to your load level for best accuracy potential. Collecting jacketed bullets from my club range berm is about 2 minutes per pound.
Another solution for alloying bullet metals that is very practical for the whole range of BHN for bullets is to limit your inventory this way: 1.) pure soft lead. 2.) Tin. 3.) Rotometals Super Hard Alloy. Super Hard is made from 30% Antimony plus 70% lead.
NOTE: get your email added to the RotoMetals mailing list, so they will send you notifications for their great sales available to you if you are on their list. Plus, all orders online over $100.00 always ship FREE from Roto. That is a big deal for lead stuff.
Gary
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Welcome aboard, sir. when I check my wheel weights I find on the clips there are symbols such as FE for iron, Zn for zinc and AL for aluminum, and these are discarded. the ones with Pb for lead are used. I use side cutters on the lead as a control and use them on questionable weights with the same pressure. I, have been lucky so far.
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While I can't say that zinc in your alloy is a good thing I haven't found it to be the total “Boogie Man” that some have. So far I haven't come across an alloy with a high enough concentration to be a total loss. When buying lead from the sales threads at “Boolits” I've had good luck but a couple of batches have had a mush form on top that I assume is zinc contamination. I have some “Copper Hard” babbit on hand and by adding a few ounces of that and just letting the mush float on top I've been able to pour good bullets out of a forgiving mould like a 45ACP round nose. I have thrown out the top 5%+ of the batch but no total losses yet so I can't say zinc has been a huge problem for me and it does harden a bullet up when present. Gp
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Hi, All, again, and thanks for the welcome and input! I've had further developments, and have received 16 lbs. of good quality #2 alloy from Missouri Bullet company. I emptied out all the alloy I had such trouble with from my bottom pour melter, and cleaned it out thoroughly, then tried it with the new alloy and same .357- 105 Gr. SWC Lee mold I had the trouble with, and much to my surprise, had the same problem! That one particular mold just doesn't want to work consistently! I had bought another of the same molds, and tried that one, which worked better-- So, after contacting Lee, I decided on taking their suggestion to return the troublesome mold to them for testing. (They are very good at backing their products, as I've learned from previous dealings--)At the very least, they will send me a new mold, if they can't fix what's wrong with that one. The thought also occurred to me, that it may just be the small size of the bullet/caliber, and I want to try some .45 ACP , .40, and heavier 9 MM bullets with the #2 metal, just to see if it makes a difference, in those Lee molds. I've also done some reading, and have found that the manufacturers of bottom pour pots do NOT recommend putting the sprue plate opening directly onto the pot nipple, they advise leaving at least a 1/2” gap when lifting the pour handle. (I confess with my 78 year old arthritis, it's a LOT easier to put the sprue plate opening right up onto the pouring nipple, but I've cut a piece of 4X4 to the size that will allow me to rest the mold on it, and leave a small gap to the sprue plate fill hole. I'll give that a try, and will let you all know the results. Again, I much appreciate all your efforts to help, and am impressed with the knowledge you have collectively shown! Fred
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Placing the sprue plate opening directly on the pour spout is sometimes called pressure filling. It sometimes works well depending on how well vented your mold is. Some molds prefer this method and some don't. It's one more thing to try when you search for what a particular mold likes to get good results. Of course adjusting the rate of flow is another thing to try as is the distance you place the mold below the pour spout along with the temp of the melt. There are several other techniques to try also. Trial and error as usual.
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Success! Leaving a small gap between the pot pouring nipple and the mold has made a tremendous difference in the quality of bullets I cast last night! I was able to cast 100 of them in no time at all with the #2 alloy, and they were perfect. I did put a small sheet of thin scrap steel over the 4X4 mold rest, which helped out a great deal with the sprue overflow, and it did take a while to learn the new pouring technique, but at least the result was great. Now, for curiosity, I'm going to try the original batch of alloy which I had suspected was contaminated, to see if it will cast good bullets in a known good mold. Who says you can't teach an “old dog new tricks"? Cheers, Fred (Honcho)
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Welcome, Fred! Please let us know how the “suspect” batch of alloy works out with your change in technique!
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