22 RF leading

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  • Last Post 28 December 2015
bandmiller2 posted this 12 December 2015

Why is it leading is seldom if ever a problem with 22 rim fire is it the speed or the lube factories use.?? Frank C.

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RicinYakima posted this 12 December 2015

I've only had two 22's that had leading issues. First was a minty 1937 S&W 22 Military and Police Target with 0.228” throats in the cylinder. The second was a Colt Diamondback a bad cylinder chambered with a chainsaw.

Soft lead, lots of lube and 160 years of experience seems to have solved most problems.

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John Alexander posted this 12 December 2015

A similar question can be asked about air guns some at similar velocities and no lube on the pellets.  I guess the answer is the same as why doesn't a bore riding bullet lead even when only lubricated in the space ahead of the gas check when shot through a clean dry bore at 2,000fps.  The bare lead of the nose and driving bands are unlubricated but don't lead the bore.

It is hard to avoid the answer that the lead is self lubricating and doesn't need additional lubricant.

Then the question comes up that if lead doesn't need lubrication in the usual sense what does “bullet lube” actually do?  We know that it is needed for at least some loads but if “bullet lube” isn't needed as a lubricant in the usual sense for bare lead what is it doing useful?

Why are such things as pure beeswax which is a poor lubricant for making sliding surfaces slicker a decent “bullet lube" John

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 12 December 2015

bullet lube:

as you cross from iowa to nebraska on highway 34 ....there is an old funky bridge you have to cross . at the end of the bridge is a toll booth where you donate a buck .

i asked the tollbooth operator where the money goes .... he told me it paid his salary .

that is why we need lubricant ::: to fill the lubricant grooves .

easy peasy .

ken

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John Alexander posted this 12 December 2015

Excellent Ken.

OK, so why do we have all those grooves?

Maybe, just because the black powder shooters needed them and we have been too lazy to see if they are needed for a hundred years?

Are we making progress or do we think we are already there?

John

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Mustafa Curtess posted this 12 December 2015

I've long been 99% convinced that for our purposes “lube” emeliorates the effect of gas-cutting - prevents it entirely in some instances. I imagine that it does so partially by promoting the alloy-extrusion for quicker and more complete obduration. (Another aspect of discouraging  gas-cutting.)  Thick, tightly-fitting PVC wads perform well even in the total absence of lube, or lube grooves.  (Also in oversize cylinder throats.)  No aplogies for my failure to answer the topic question - but then, neither did anyone. I don't completely accept that 22rf bullets aren't lubricated. I haven't noticed for 60 years, but I seem to recall that one major brand claimed something fanciful: “LubeAlloy” maybe?  Many appear to be plated, and there is evidence of something like graphite on others. Have any matches been won, or even shot - with un-lubed (or un-grooved) CB's?

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corerf posted this 12 December 2015

In the case of an air rifle, I thinks it's unfair to use as a parallel to draw from.

The pellets I have experience with are not subject to any amount of heat other than friction generated and their design is one that allows the absolute minimum bearing surface to be used during its barrel launch path.

edited to exclude the high jack of thread.

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corerf posted this 12 December 2015

Content removed so as to stay on topic.Please forgive the indiscretion.

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John Alexander posted this 12 December 2015

I think Mustafa has a good theory going about “lube” cutting down on gas cutting although I'm not so hot on the part about it promoting extrusion (upsetting) to seal things - but maybe. Also good point about pvc wads eliminating the need for “lube and lube grooves". That would also kill the theory that it is friction heat from rubbing on the bore that causes it.

I think he is also right that at least some 22RF bullets are lubricated. I know of no matches that have been won with unlubed bullets.

I agree with corerf that we should probably quit using the air gun analogy for the reasons he gave as well as because it isn't needed since bare lead cast bullets also don't lead with lube only in the gas gas check shank will serve better.

Yes lead leaves a mark. I guess that's why the graphite in a pencil is called lead. But I think many CB shooters would disagree that that is an example of the leading we curse -- the kind that causes trouble by bonding to the bore.

Born too soon, no Nerds, had to rely on straight spitballs.

John

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corerf posted this 12 December 2015

I agree, Ive never seen an UNLUBED 22 RF. My memory of all the 22 Ive shot was that there is a film of some sort, thick or invisible, that is detectable by my rough fingers. But I haven't spent time with the Eley and very high dollar/high perf RF ammo.

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RicinYakima posted this 12 December 2015

Answer to bandmiller2's question; neither of the those.

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bandmiller2 posted this 13 December 2015

You nor I nor nowbody knows how oats peas beans and barley grows. Isn't it strange after all these years how little we know for sure about cast bullets. Thanks guys. Frank C.

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RicinYakima posted this 13 December 2015

Frank C.,

You have it nailed! We “think” we know, but it is all guesses; which is why John Alexander keeps asking the same question, and we only have opinions for him.

Ric

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John Alexander posted this 13 December 2015

I think bandmiller2 and Ric have summed it up.  But those opinions (not all perhaps) could be turned into facts or disproven if we could get more testing done.

The worst kind of CB opinion, rule, requirement are the ones that have been disproven but just keep coming back e.g. need for perfect crown.

John

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 13 December 2015

all this talk about lube-less bullets reminds me of our late very good friend ken mollohan ...

...and with some bit of nostalgia i report that only yesterday while cleaning out a shop ... i found a barrel i received from molly about 10 or 15 years ago ... gee it is a bsa 30 rook ...for a bsa martini ....hmmmm ..

i wonder if zen is telling me to get back on my no. one project of a 6mm super rook ....i have most of the components ... but i have to clean out this shop that i sold ... 40 years of accumulated ....uh ...precious miscellaneous ....stuff.

anyway, my super rook is oriented toward most of the ideas of coref's above posts ... rebated base, throat of groove dia., very shallow leade... small capacity case, probably rimmed . supposed to shoot like a 22 rf match rifle .

molly will be proud .

ken

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giorgio the slim one posted this 13 December 2015

May I ask : what about Lee Liquid Alox and LeStuff Xlox and 45/45/10 that I have used with success?

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John Alexander posted this 13 December 2015

Well it works reasonable well for me too.  I have never been able to get quite the accuracy as with only a tiny bit LBT blue in the space ahead of the gas check and the rest of the bullet bare. I will keep trying. I have also tried using both together and that works better for me than Xlox alone but goes against my principle of not doing any work unless I can see an improved result over not doing it.

Besides being very efficient if you process large batches of bullets I think one of things folks like is the concept that the whole bullet is “lubricated” in spite of the fact that dried tumble lubes aren't very slick.  This may be especially true for shooters who still believe that bullet “lubes” are to lubricate in the sense of making two sliding surfaces slide easier. 

How many of you have ever gotten leading only near the muzzle? Does it actually happen? I read about it and the neat and tidy theory that goes along with it that the bullet has run out of lube.  My normal small bit of lube ahead of the gas check is from 1/5 to maybe 1/20 of what would go in some of my bullets if I filled up all the grooves (on Ken's funky bridge principle.) But in spite of tens of thousands of bullets so lubed I have never seen it. Most were fired through a 26” barrel so maybe if I had a 32” barrel I would see it. If I ever do run into leading near the muzzle, I have a lot of potential lube volume in reserve to counteract it.

John

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RicinYakima posted this 13 December 2015

Yes, John it does. Back in the early '90's before I joined the CBA, I spent a few years shooting NRA High-Power with me beloved 1903 Springfields. Two of the stages are 10 shot rapid fire, one in 60 seconds and one in 70 seconds. I practiced and shot the 100 yards reduced coursers with 311291 to save money and I my shoulder.

One of the local hot shot shooters had a clinic one hot Saturday. We shot four strings of sitting rapid fire then four strings of prone rapid fire. My bullets were sized .309” (too small) made from straight WW's (too soft) loaded with 22 grains of A2400 (too hot) but all the lube grooves were filled with NRA 50/50 old component lube. Other than the bullets, this was the standard short range load for 173 grain M1 DCM bullets and what I was set up to load. (My scores were fair, but technique got smoother and better.)

When I got home, I could not get the first patch through the bore. Examination showed the bore was leaded under the front sight. Soaked the bore in Hoppe's #9 over night. Then I could push a loose patch out. Out came four strings of lead from the grooves about 2+ inches long. An hour of scrubbing with JB paste cleaned everything up.

So, was it heat? copper plating? lube failure? I don't know, but I never did it again.

Ric

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 13 December 2015

john a.::: i have been waiting for someone else to ask .... but i can't stand it anymore ...

since you have the skill/equipment to tell the difference ...

have you tested for your one-groove of lube .... vs. no lube at all ?? for both accuracy and ” leading ”

i suppose you have to start with a bare metal barrel ? wow this is getting complicated already ....

ken

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tlkeizer posted this 13 December 2015

Greetings, Ken, I have shot one of my 45-70's with varying amounts of lube, filling all the grooves gave the best results. I use black powder with SPG lube. I always used lube, just varied the number of grooves filled as I pan lube. Just fwiw. Oh, for leading, I never noticed it but then again I brush after each shot unless I am hunting.

TK

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John Alexander posted this 13 December 2015

I am not surprised after all the bullets were designed for black powder thus all the grooves helped -- unlike Ken's funky bridge toll taker.

I have for years believed that my testing had shown that the less lube the better.  Tried to replicate that a couple of years ago and reported the results in TFS 244. Load was 4.5 grains of 700X and a CCI SP primers pushing an NOE 22570RN of wheelwrights in the 223.

 I fired ten 5-shot groups with each condition of lube in one, two, or three grooves.  The three averages for the bullets with 1, 2, and 3 grooves filled were 1.20, 1.21, NS 1.20 MOA and my long standing believe that less was more was shattered.

John  

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