A bullet that yawed

  • 7.3K Views
  • Last Post 18 October 2015
mtngun posted this 21 September 2015

Those of you who follow my forum may be aware that I built a water trap to shoot cast bullets into.    The idea is to autopsy bullets to try to understand how they fail.  Do they “skid,” "twist,” "yaw,” gas cut, etc.???   Inquiring minds want to know.  :cool:

A load I was shooting today yielded an interesting specimen.  

155 gr. bevel base fired from a Contender Rifle at ~2000 fps. 17.4 gr. WC297.  Alloy was heat treated reclaimed shot at 40 BHN.  This load mostly shot decent (2 MOA) but threw the occasional flier.  I suspect this bullet would have been one of those fliers.   This bullet somehow entered the rifling crooked, so that the bullet engraved a lot more on one side than the other side.  A clear shot of the engraving showing that there was absolutely no skidding or twisting, only “yawing.” The red dotted line is the line of contact.

Is the washed-out look on the bottom band due to gas cutting?   Or is it water-related damage?   I don't know.

Attached Files

Order By: Standard | Newest | Votes
OU812 posted this 21 September 2015

Poor bullet fit inside throat or freebore, loose neck chamber.

Sometimes sizing can cause this yaw before firing...expecially when using RCBS or Lyman base first sizers.

Attached Files

mtngun posted this 21 September 2015

OU812 wrote: poor bullet fit inside throat, loose neck chamber, That's a very logical guess, OU812, but as it happens the chamber and neck are quite snug, the nose was sized in a nose die cut with the throating reamer to ensure a perfect fit in the throat, and seated 0.009” away from contact, which is about as snug a fit as a Contender will tolerate.   

I haven't figured it out yet.  :X

Attached Files

OU812 posted this 21 September 2015

Shouldn't bullet be seated deep against rifling as in breech seating.

Attached Files

mtngun posted this 21 September 2015

The full sizing routine was as follows: -- sized nose-first in a push thru die having a generous tapered entrance -- oven treated -- lubed in lubrisizer with oversize die having a generous tapered entrance -- nose sized in a nose die having a generous tapered entrance.

Normally this works well.  That's not to say that Mr. Murphy could not have made an appearance. :D

I only shot the one round of this load into the water trap so it may not be representative.   But even if this only happens once in a great while, it could explain the occasional flyer, so I would like to get to the bottom of it.    

Attached Files

mtngun posted this 21 September 2015

OU812 wrote: Shouldn't bullet be seated deep against rifling as in breech seating.Explain please ???

Attached Files

OU812 posted this 21 September 2015

It helps if the throat/free bore is cut deeper than factory and bullet is supported more before take off.

Is the brass and bullet seated concentric? Does the brass have equal or near perfect case wall runout.

I suspect a bore riding bullet may perform better than that short bullet.

Attached Files

OU812 posted this 21 September 2015

mtngun wrote: OU812 wrote: Shouldn't bullet be seated deep against rifling as in breech seating.Explain please ??? Jamming the bullet into lands will help center the bullet better before firing. Seating the bullet .009 before contact may make accuracy worse, especially if case neck to chamber clearance is over .002".

Attached Files

mtngun posted this 21 September 2015

OU812 wrote: It helps if the throat/free bore is cut deeper than factory and bullet is supported more before take off.

Is the brass and bullet seated concentric? Does the brass have equal or near perfect case wall runout.

I suspect a bore riding bullet may perform better than that short bullet.Ummm ..... the factory Contender 357 throat has a looooong jump to the rifling and is not known for shooting well with cast.   But this was shot from a custom barrel with a custom throat.

Not sure about a long free bore being better -- John Ardito might disagree?   But I have yet to conduct tests on freebore myself so I'll withhold judgment.     As it happens this barrel has a short freebore, about 0.050” if even that.   The leade begins almost immediately after the neck as per standard Ardito practice.

Cartridge is 357 mag, necks have not been turned.  Unfortunately I tossed the case that fired this bullet back in the tub with the other empties so I can't examine that particular case for wall runout unless I want to examine the entire tub.  :(

I have tested bore riders in this barrel and they didn't do anything noteworthy.   Bear in mind that it is not a good idea to engrave a bore rider in a Contender as is commonly done in a bolt gun.   Contender rounds need to chamber effortlessly or else you'll get misfires, flyers, and increased velocity variation.   Generally bore riders are not the best choice for maximum loads in any type of rifle, but that's another story.

Yes it is a short stubby bullet and it's not surprising that a short stubby bullet yawed.   But this barrel has a preference for 150 - 160 grains, and I'm deliberately working with spitzers at the moment for reasons of my own, so that narrows the design options.  

Attached Files

mtngun posted this 21 September 2015

OU812 wrote: mtngun wrote: OU812 wrote: Shouldn't bullet be seated deep against rifling as in breech seating.Explain please ??? Jamming the bullet into lands will help center the bullet better before firing. Seating the bullet .009 before contact may make accuracy worse, especially if case neck to chamber clearance is over .002". True in many actions, not true in a Contender.    Contenders have a weak, problematic ignition system and have no camming power (other than slamming the action closed hard, not cool).   I've done quite a bit of experimentation with different seating depths to arrive at that 0.009” figure.  I didn't share that in my original post because I was trying to avoid writing a book.  :D

I agree that seating 0.009” shy of contact increases the opportunity for the bullet to yaw.  Unfortunately that is an inherent weakness of the Contender action.  :X

I may experiment with closing that distance a bit -- it's problematic because there are always tolerances and one grain of unburnt powder or a dab of residual bullet lube is all it takes to cause chambering difficulty.   A jam fit is not on the table.  

Again I don't know what caused the extreme yawing.    Maybe there is a fix, or maybe it is the nature of the beast.   That's what makes cast bullets interesting.  :cool:

Attached Files

OU812 posted this 21 September 2015

I have heard that some Contenders have chambers reamed off center of bore centerline (common problem with most factory barrels).

Attached Files

mtngun posted this 21 September 2015

Yes, factory contender chambers can be all kinds of awful, that's why I went to the trouble to make a custom barrel & reamer.

It's 357 mag, my pet cartridge. I've always felt that most 357 rifles are hampered by the crummy SAAMI throat (or the even crummier TC throat) so this barrel was an experiment to see what a 357 could do with a good throat.

In general, I've come to the conclusion that a Contender is not the best tool for serious bench testing, not even with custom barrels. It has too many limitations, you have to lift it off the rest to open the action, and it's fussy about benchrest technique. My next load-testing gun will be a bolt gun with a proper benchrest stock. But that's another story. :)

Attached Files

Notlwonk posted this 21 September 2015

Are the bullets seating properly, any sign of crooked seating? I had accuracy problems with a 22 Hornet and it was obvious that they were crooked when looking at the eccentric bulge on the neck. The neck wall thickness is pretty thin on the hornet so that may not be an issue on the 357. I ended up making an oversize expander for the Lyman M die.

Attached Files

mtngun posted this 21 September 2015

Notlwonk, there is no visible sign of crooked seating but I have not actually measured the run out.

Attached Files

mtngun posted this 21 September 2015

FYI I have seen evidence of yawing on other bullets, fired from other guns, just not as obvious as the bullet in my original post.

Here is my revolver load, a 160 gr.  with 80% meplat, as fired through the Contender rifle.    The mushrooming makes it impossible to verify, but yawing could explain why the grooves are wiped on one one side of the base but not the other.

When fired through the revolver the bullets also usually have the grooves wiped out on one side.   I can't rule out the possibility that it is due to something happening upon impact with the water, but I suspect it is yawing.

Attached Files

mtngun posted this 21 September 2015

Partly OT but partly on topic, since a couple of people have asked about my custom Contender's throat.   Most Contender 357's have an atrocious throat, which is why I went to the trouble of making a custom barrel for the 357.

Apparently some of the earliest Contender 357's used a SAAMI throat, which is not atrocious but not great, either.   http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?cid=120>Mike Bellm's website does a great job of discussing contender throats and the theory of throats in general.   BTW Mike advocates that barrels for cast bullets have some freebore to help align the bullet.    Veral Smith also advocated some freebore if I remember correctly.   I  have not made up my mind about the freebore question.   Ardito and Eagan seemed to favor a leade that began immediately after the chamber, and their system has been proven to work, at least with long bullets and modest velocities.   On the other hand Ardito also claimed that a 6” long freebore worked ok !!! :shock:

Recent Contender 357 chamber on top,  80's SAAMI chamber below it (also found in Marlins).

Attached Files

onondaga posted this 21 September 2015

http://castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=608>mtngun

Consider a different scenario to identify the cause of the uneven engraving and tipping of your bullet on firing.

I believe your BHN40 bullet metal is so far out of line with the load pressure that you are working with,  that the tipping and uneven engraving are only a couple of the results to be expected with such a severe mismatch of load level to bullet alloy. I believe the severe mismatch is the cause of the defects you are seeing. Your load does not require harder than BHN 15-17 bullet alloy and a harder alloy changes predictable results to unexpected results as bullet fit is critical in different ways with the alloy being correct or incorrect for the load level and your mismatch is severe at BHN 40.

Both of the chamber throat types shown in your chamber castings are workable. A bullet diameter with a sliding fit upon chambering and a bullet alloy matched to the load level will work fine for either type of chamber. The bullet alloy mismatch you have is so severe it will exacerbate the smallest discrepancies in bullet fit and load pressure badly,  even to the type of distorted bullets you picture.

You are actually ignoring the basics of cast bullet shooting by so much that  your drastic results are not surprising at all. Your results actually demonstrate that Richard Lee is correct in his chapters on load level related to bullet alloy in his book Modern Reloading 2nd Edition.

Want to fix this? Size BHN 15-17 bullets so that a bare bullet is the size that slides with a tactile touch into the throat and seat the bullets to the LOA that engages the leade taper .010” past initial contact. That is following the basics and much different than what you have done. You actually cannot take full advantage of a good bullet fit when you use the wrong alloy. A poor bullet fit and a poor alloy selection accentuate problems and difficulties as your results demonstrate.

I have no idea how you became convinced that BHN 40 bullets are suitable in your application. They are not and they are not suitable by a wide margin. Certified Hardball Pistol alloy or Certified Lyman #2 alloy fits your application with throat fitting bullets seated to engage the leade .010” regardless of action type or barrel maker.

If you just want BHN 40 bullets work, that can be done but your load pressure is too low and your bullet fit is insufficient.

Additionally a #2 alloy flat nosed bullet with a matched load and fit for your firearm will  expand on impact with game to 70 caliber and pass through at reasonable hunting distances, a BHN 40 bullet will only pierce a .357"hole and deliver little shock. The simple Lee TL 358-158-SWC, C 358-158-SWC  or 358-158-SWC in #2 alloy would be a much better choice for 100 yard deer or pig hunting. The gas checked C 358-158-SWC will handle the highest load level for hunting if you need that.

Gary

Attached Files

OU812 posted this 21 September 2015

mtngun wrote: OU812 wrote: poor bullet fit inside throat, loose neck chamber, That's a very logical guess, OU812, but as it happens the chamber and neck are quite snug, the nose was sized in a nose die cut with the throating reamer to ensure a perfect fit in the throat, and seated 0.009” away from contact, which is about as snug a fit as a Contender will tolerate.   

I haven't figured it out yet.  :X

"the nose was sized in a nose die cut with the throating reamer to ensure a perfect fit in the throat" Test bullet fit inside your nose die. It should be easy slip fit without being too loose (.0001 -.0005). If chamber was cut using the same reamer to cut nose die, the fit should be the same for both. Chamber bullet deep against rifling when chambering. Do not crimp. Linotype fills out mould better than most other softer alloys.

After taper bumping the bullet, how are you removing bullet from die without deforming tip of bullet? I like using Accurate Moulds flat tip bullets when taper bumping. A flat punch and harder linotype alloy prevents deformation when removing from taper bump die.

Attached Files

Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 21 September 2015

your 1.5 degree-per-side throat will only support about 0.15 inches length of bullet .... that is almost a point-contact ; think of it as almost a pivot point when ignition occurs ...

it seems to me that our near-liquid cast bullets should deserve our greatest support ... 1/2 degree per side would be interesting ; in a bolt action with some camming power i think a 1/4 degree per side would be even better .

Attached Files

onondaga posted this 21 September 2015

http://castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=40>Ken Campbell Iowa,  I see what you are saying, I just say ....let them slam from an engaged start.

Gary

Attached Files

OU812 posted this 22 September 2015

The top chamber cast in picture looks to be 1.50 included or .75 degree-per-side.

Attached Files

Show More Posts
Close