Duplexing slow for the cartridge powders

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45 2.1 posted this 07 August 2015

WARNING: This is a controversial subject. If you don't understand the following, then don't attempt it.

I've been doing this for the last thirty years with NO problems in bolt actions and semi-auto firearms. The following is the procedure I use to keep me from having problems.

A slow powder for the cartridge is one that usually isn't on the reloading manual listing below the slowest powder listed. It gives inferior velocity, leaves powder kernals in the barrel and gives low pressure. I mainly use the surplus 50 cal. and 20 mm powders for this....... mainly in 7.62x51 but also in the 5.56 to 35 cal. range. Let's take the 30 caliber as an example. In the 308 I use WCC 867 with a fast rifle powder as a booster/duplexing charge. I noted from the reloading manuals that 4350 was about the slowest powder listed in the reloading tables for the cartridge. Powder burn charts are accessible on the internet for these types of powders, so use them. 867 is much slower than 4350, so I loaded a full case charge behind a 175 gr. cast bullet and fired it in a strong rifle......... a mid range report, recoil and a fouled dirty bore was the result. I substituted 2 gr. of the fast rifle powder of the 867 and tried again, in creasing the booster charge and lowering the main charge for a full case condition until the barrel was basically clean and a normal report ensued. I have found, that regardless of cartridge, you will likely find the maximum booster charge shouldn't go over 7 gr. and the small cartridges will be no less than 2 gr. to get clean bore results. I use that loading in several 308/7.62 rifles to get about 2,400 fps (that depends on barrel length of course) with a 175 gr. cast bullet of my own design with approximately 1 MOA accuracy well past 300 yards. Various booster charges can be used doing this..... most work OK, but the main difference is accuracy... find the right one and you get excellent accuracy. The wrong one gives poor accuracy. It may seem I'm not being forthcoming here, but I've seen that people seldom follow instructions. You get a basic safe procedure established for the way you think and do things.... then you can do this also. I've taught this procedure to others, but it usually involves several hours of phone time and some instruction on reading manuals and powder burn charts. Questions?

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gpidaho posted this 07 August 2015

There are so many ways for a knowledgeable handloader to stretch a buck. I'm not at all against the idea of duplex charges. it's been used successfully for as long as folks have been reloading. I do believe it should not be attempted with out a thorough “education” as all the money saved could quickly be lost in one big bang. I've been lucky in being able to buy and have been gifted enough of the appropriate powders for the calibers I load to pretty much last me on out. For me, I'll stick with them. Gp

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Ed Harris posted this 08 August 2015

I've fooled with this and when there was free powder, duplexing gave a way to get the slow burners to light off to to get more gee whiz

Most notable was the .30-'06 woodchuck load in which Nick Croyle and I would pull TW54 ball, top off the case over the 4895 charge with RL7 until it would be compressed by the base of a 125-grain Sierra or 130 Speer JHP, would be blue smoke tracers streaming lead vapors like firing 55 grain Sierra Blitz in a .22-250. Shot flat as a laser, had a Hart 2AS with 28” barrel. No ejector plunger or extractor cutout in bolt. Could lift bolt handle with one finger. Primers would not leak or fall out because they were crimped in!

Therein lies the clue! DO NOT try this at home!

Duplexing 4831 and 3Fg black measuring with Chock Full O Nuts coffee scoops in 1-pounder Hotchkiss is also interesting....

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 08 August 2015

Interesting concept - get pressure up enough to ignite well a really slow powder - slow initial acceleration and resulting greater velocity.

Hmmmm.

question: any issues with the 2gr fast powder being distributed unevenly with the case full of really-slow powder?

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45 2.1 posted this 08 August 2015

TRK wrote:question: any issues with the 2gr fast powder being distributed unevenly with the case full of really-slow powder?

The 2 gr. booster charge involves small cases only. That has been tried next to the primer, in the middle of the main charge, next to the bullet and evenly distributed with no problems with caveats that you should have tested some things before you willy nilly do unusual things.

Some of the previous replies are not in line with what this thread is about. It is about duplexing slow for the cartridge powders......... not slow surplus powders exclusively. That means some mid-range rifle powders can be duplexed in the smaller rifle cases. An example would be duplexing SR 4759 in the 300 AAC to get excellent accuracy in a semi-auto.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 09 August 2015

please keep a few things in mind when ” improving ” ignition ...

1) a case full of too slow powder might not be too slow after improved ignition ... it might be too fast ...

2) improve gradually .... this is similar to seating bullets deeper ... and/or using heavier bullets ... think twice before you blow your gun up once ...

3) you will probably reduce the charge of your slow powder to make room for the hotter powder ... think it over before you replace slow powder with the same weight of bullseye ( etc. ) ...


and yep, i have done the duplex thing ... i still have a gallon or so of h4831 from 1960 ...

ken

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45 2.1 posted this 13 August 2015

Ken Campbell Iowa wrote: please keep a few things in mind when ” improving ” ignition ...

1) a case full of too slow powder might not be too slow after improved ignition ... it might be too fast ...   2) improve gradually .... this is similar to seating bullets deeper ... and/or using heavier bullets ... think twice before you blow your gun up once ...

3) you will probably reduce the charge of your slow powder to make room for the hotter powder ... think it over before you replace slow powder with the same weight of bullseye ( etc. ) ...


and yep, i have done the duplex thing ... i still have a gallon or so of h4831 from 1960 ...

ken

That is all well and good, but if that is true, then you didn't have a slow for the cartridge powder to begin with. There are rules you need to understand to do this correctly. It is not a guess...........

Once you learn how to determine what a “slow for the cartridge powder” is you won't see any pressure problems.

Again, there are rules (like using any fast burning pistol powders which don't work well BTW), but until I see some basic understanding of the concept (other than TRK which caught it), the finer details won't be discussed. The term “duplexing” is such a coarse rendition of a much finer art that has the possibility of excellent accuracy with much lower pressures at higher velocities.

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gpidaho posted this 13 August 2015

Well, Ho hum I guess since I haven't been sitting on the edge of my chair waiting to be enlightened as to duplexing I'm just going to go with I don't give the old rats posterior if the finer points are shared or not. Gp

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 14 August 2015

i was thinking that a cautious, researched, educated guess would be better than an over-confident trusting following of somebody else's rules .... when it comes to mixing up blends of different powders ...

ken, with ten fingers, two eyes and 10 toes ... ( g ) ...

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45 2.1 posted this 14 August 2015

Ken Campbell Iowa wrote: i was thinking that a cautious, researched, educated guess would be better than an over-confident trusting following of somebody else's rules .... when it comes to mixing up blends of different powders ...

ken, with ten fingers, two eyes and 10 toes ... ( g ) ... That is quite correct Ken...... and a good observation, however, if you want to make up your own set of rules to follow, you could very well do what you were told not to do and have the same problems yourself.

 The type of duplexing powder varies with the case shape and capacity, overbore condition and bullet weight. It usually, but not always, is a powder suitable for low velocity cast shooting. This is much like a reloading manual where different powders are suitable for different cartridges. Most people seek someone with knowledge about what they are trying to do and ask questions............>

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yodogsandman posted this 29 September 2016

Could you start out with the basics and then move to the rules. I've wanted to duplex load for 30 years but, because there's so much cloaked information, always felt better off using “normal” powders and loading techniques. What is this scary duplex loading that's only whispered about? What basic guidelines can we follow to keep us safe while we experiment? What should we avoid?

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45 2.1 posted this 29 September 2016

Basics: 1. Use a “slow for the cartridge” powder. that is one which is slower than the slowest listed powder for full loads. That varies with the cartridge. 2. Duplexing can be used in a lot of cartridges. If the powder capacity is too small, it is very difficult for it to work well. If the cartridge is too large, either straight wall or bottle neck, some things work and some don't. 3. The booster charge varies with the cartridge caliber and capacity. Herein is where most of the learning or following basic rules come in. It's easier to discuss those after you've had a success with the easier stuff. 4. Learning this usually is easier if you pick a cartridge to first learn with......... the 308 is very common and easy to learn on. If you want something else, pick one.

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yodogsandman posted this 29 September 2016

The .308 Win would be fine for me. I have a DIY custom bubba'd Mauser FR-8 in 7.62x51 that I shoot the most. My most recent accurate load with it was with a full case of W760 and the Lee 311-155-2R bullets. About a 2.1” group at 100 yards with 19 rounds fired as fast as I could get on target because of the fading light. That was my first and only try with that, last year.

When you mention “full loads” in #1. is that for jacketed or cast loads.

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45 2.1 posted this 30 September 2016

I'm shooting a 180 gr. cast 30 Sil in a 7.62 Nato chamber at about 2,400 fps out of semi autos...... that good enough? It works the same out of several 308 bolt guns also.

What slow surplus powders do you have? What powders in the 4198 to 4895 range do you have?

Jeff Barlett ( gibrass.com ) has some real deals on surplus slow powders right now.

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yodogsandman posted this 30 September 2016

Don't have a good 180 gr mold that fits my chamber at .314". Do have RCBS 30-180 SP and FP mold that cast .310". Have a Lyman 314299, NOE 314-129 FP and NOE 314-160 Harris Design that do fit.

I have Reloader 7, IMR 4895, IMR 4227 and a surplus powder touted as being like SR-4759.

For slower powders I have W760, H414, IMR4350, IMR 4831, Reloader 19 and a little Reloader 22.

I know of Jeff's powders but, haven't ordered any slow ones. I'll look more seriously. I believe he has 7383, W860, W870 and W872 available. Been leaning towards 7383 and W860 where they can be used without a duplex load for lots of calibers.

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Wineman posted this 30 September 2016

Not for me. Just not enough benefit and the savings are so minimal (if you can afford a computer to get on this forum you don't need to worry about the $100 more per year H4894 costs you) to mess with it. I have 8 lb of GI Brass IMR 7383 and while I have used it with cast, it is not really a “go to” powder for me. Using 40 grains under a 311299 (30-06), it is about the same recoil as M2 Ball, costs about the same, is more expensive if I count my time, and does not shoot as well at 200 yards. Reloading is one of the last lawyer free, nanny go home, do what you want experiences still left to normal people. I like my 2014 Subaru much better than my dad's 65 Chevy Nova (deathtrap) V8 so I'm not one of the older is better types. I doubt any fingers are going to get taken off unless the fast/slow ratio is reversed so if it works, go for it. If saving money was the issue, I would not reload. I like big guns with low recoil and all the shots in a small area. There are enough good loads that I don't want to look to mixing powders.

Dave

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yodogsandman posted this 30 September 2016

I think of duplexing as a skill to be learned. With experienced guidance, a skill that changes our view on this reloading practice from scary to cautious concern. Most guys that post on duplex loads, just post on a load that's worked for them. This is an opportunity to learn the “why and what for” behind this skill.

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45 2.1 posted this 30 September 2016

Ask most folks here and you'll hear the term “mixing” when they talk about duplexing. They are wrong in that assumption. Those powders are not a mechanical mixture, they are layered. Proper semantics are used by few people here and. I don't really care that there are naysayers here either, some people do want to learn. As far as powders, anything on the basic reloading manuals shown in the tables is not “slow for the cartridge” powders. In fact, anything that burns cleanly and leaves no residue in the barrel really qualifies. Dupont used to publish a reloading guide each year showing what all their rifle powders would produce with full loads. In it 4831 showed up in the 308 with 180 gr. range bullets and full compressed loads showing pressures about in the low 30K range. The old WW2 4831 and Accurite 3100 were like powders which would work, but the newer 4831 is a poor substitute for them. Yodog, you are looking at W860, W870 and W872 in the 308 for this.

As far as cost savings......... $6 a pound powder versus $24 a pound 4895. It doesn't take a lot to save a bunch of money if you shoot a lot!

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yodogsandman posted this 30 September 2016

OK, ordered some W860 and 7383 from Jeff Bartlett. The 7383 is for trying out in some other calibers without duplexing.

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delmarskid1 posted this 30 September 2016

Shot up 8 pounds of W870 using duplex loads in the 30-06. It worked but not well enough to be worth the possible dangers. Just my opinion of course.

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45 2.1 posted this 01 October 2016

Another one..... and you shot 8 lbs of it. Since I've been doing this for the last 35 years and have shot about 20 times the powder you have duplexing loads makes me curious.....Pray tell us just what possible dangers you envision AND what have you experienced from shooting what you did.

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