Hello All: Once again I would like your thoughts on my “this time” adventure. I may be over thinking this but I'm fond of my digits. I won't go into all the details but I find myself needing to seat some bullets deeper than I would like to get them to chamber in a short tight carbine. The bullets are the Lee 356-125-2R and 356-120-TC to function in said fire arm the bullets need to be seated to 1.035. I've cut a case down to what would be the base of the bullet (Lee dipper style) to see what fits without compression. 5.3 of TiteGroup would fit where data says 3.6 start 4.0 max so that should fit okay. Ramshot True Blue 6.6 would be to base of bullet with a start of 4.2 and 5.0 max. WSF 5.0 fits 4.0 start 4.7 max, Unique and 3N37 there's not enough room for. With SAMMI spec at 1.169 max for a RN and mine seated to 1.035 do you think it safe to use the standard start-max figures with the powders I've found to fit in the available space? Thanks for your thoughts Gp
9mm Luger
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- Last Post 25 July 2015
Do not seat deeper, or shorter overall cartridge length than listed in published data! With small cases such as .32 ACP, .380 ACP, and 9mm, seating as little as 0.030” deeper can cause a dangerous pressure spike.
Speer cautions that in testing their 9mm loads, that cartridges producing normal pressures with accepted limits exceeded proof pressure when seated only 0.030” deeper.
If your 9mm pistol or carbine requires cartridges of a shorter OAL to feed, you must find tested data for a similar bullet tested at an OAL that will work in your gun. Good luck.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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i note you mention a carbine ... so you might be tempted to feel a little safer pushing pressures ... but remember that the brass case might be the fuse in the system ... how much oversize the rear of the chamber, and how much of the rear of the case is unsupported ... and of course the thickness of the brass back where it is hanging out ....
keep your fireworks for the 4th of july ...
are your loads magazine/carrier limited ... or just that the nose doesn't chamber ... lee molds are only $25 heh heh
ken
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I use 3.4 of TiteGroup with the LEE 125RN, and wish the Auto-Disk would let me measure 3.0grs or less for older guns; oal is 1.11/1.12. This works a stiff Spfld P9 slide but the cases won't go far.
Hodgdon's Data Center has lower TG loads and oal's for jacketed bullets so you could start there.
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The only gun I ever blew up was a POS NEVADA ARMS 9mm pistol with a load or red dot and a 140 gr lead bullet straight out of the manual.
The 9mm is a cartridge to be respected and not loaded to its maximum pressure limits.
I will never forget the sight of that slide breaking and heading back toward my right eye. Brodie
B.E.Brickey
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So far the closest thing I've found in my data search is at Western Powders site. They show an Oregon Trails Laser Cast 124RN seated to 1.050. This is over True Blue powder which is good as that powder takes up the least space of the five or six powders I have that would work in a 9. As we know, Col means nothing until I can research the lenght of said bullet. This is so odd to me, up until this point it seems I have always been fighting with a gun that is way large in the chamber. lol Thanks guys for your thoughts. GP
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Okay guys, next report. Today I moved away from the Lee 356-125-2R and gave the TL356-124-2R a try sized .356. This is a bullet that works perfectly in my Walther PPQ sized .358 but would not chamber in the carbine. I've chronographed this bullet with a variety of powders seated to 1.130 and found it to pretty much follow tested data. The differance in the 124 and the 125 is a sharp drop from full caliber to .325 forward of the front band on the 124.(just what was needed) I'm going to have to use a COL of 1.125 to get this bullet to work as it still bumps up against the front band when chambering but does extract with no problem at this length. I'll seat this .005 deeper at a time until the band is no longer dented on chambering keeping an eye on things with the chrono as to pressure. Also Duane M. has generously offered to send me a sampleof bullets from one of his moulds that drops a shorter bullet than mine. So, I'm encouraged as to a workable solution here. O nce again I'm reminded of my own motto. This 9 is making my head hurt. lol Gp
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Good results yesterday with this tight little nine. The Lee TL356-124 seems best so far as the nose drops from .356 to .325 in a step forward of the front band. I shortened the COL .010 at a time until I got it to stop trying to headspace off the front drive band. Running all loads through the chronograph I saw no noticeable increase in velocity between the loads and everything came together at 1.115 COL. All the other moulds I have that will work for a nine leave the rifling etched on the full .356 noses above the case, I ran one group of 356-120-TC through the crono, etching and all, function was fine, fps was within 10 fps of the 124s and I got the best SD of the day at 7, go figure. Must be that slip fit Gary talks about plus some lol. All the loads ran in the low to mid 1200s and brass ejection was pretty close, about three to four feet. I got one stovepipe so I believe I'm pretty much at a minimum charge weight for proper function. As you know M1 Carbine sights are not up to much, I need to get a rail base so I can mount up my Trijicon reflex sight, that should help make the beer cans jump. It's coming together, the little gun is a lot of fun. GP
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Lee makes an adjustable charge bar for their AutoDisk measure and it is certainly adjustable to throw the 3.0 grains of Titegroup you mention.
It is not an expensive accessory for the AutoDisk and a very practical addition for your AutoDisk:
It is only $9.99 and is continuously adjustable from .28cc to 1.6cc. That is a wide range of adjustment and this tool works fine for me with my AutoDisk from Lee.
Gary
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The charge bar got a really bad rep for the shorter end of its range. It seems that the narrow opening no longer faces the hopper's hole efficiently, and can only deliver irregular/partial loads, even with spherical powders. I checked the fact visually on mine.
When contacted, a LEE tech reportedly said that this charge bar was mostly intended for heavier loads (where fine adjustment matters more?).
The solution found by some shooters is to shim the back of the cavity with adhesive paper until it is totally exposed to its supply hole. Others have filled unused holes in their disks (with epoxy?) and then drilled new ones.
I haven't found time to play with the device or check on it. Since I have two sets of disks, I would try to sleeve cavities in the extra set if necessary. Someone also produces a replacement for the discontinued Micro-Disk Kit, along with blank disks; I can't find that bookmark right now...
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Also, They are plastic, I carved mine to throw larger than specification.
Gary
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Found it:
A little more explicit here:
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I've seen some thread drift before but I think this one wins the award for farthest afield. lol gp
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GP my Friend, this isn't drift. They turned the boat 90 degrees from course, and put the hammer down. Brodie
B.E.Brickey
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But it's a good new course :)
I agree thou, it should have it's own thread.
GP my Friend, this isn't drift. They turned the boat 90 degrees from course, and put the hammer down.
Brodie
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With this crew any course is pretty darn good!
B.E.Brickey
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Brodie, Ya sometimes I shouldn't drive I guess! It was good for a morning giggle, like this 9mm stuff is boring lets talk about something interesting like discontinued Lee carp. Good evening my friends. GP
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Well friends, one last mention of what I'm up to with the 9mm M1 Carbine. First, it just seems to me short chambered. Any bullet of .355 or more at .800 will be engraved by the rifling, even looking at factory FMJs under magnification you will see light impressions left on the bullets nose. Now, after much obsessing over this, searching high and low for a bullet that is small enough in the nose yet long enough to reliably function what I've come up with is the Lee TL356-124-R, this bullet can be seated to a COL of 1.112 and the front band just touches the rifling of the carbine. After all this worring, I ran a few tests with various bullets, mine and a couple of examples generously supplied by fellow member Duane M. seven examples in all. Six of these were seated into the rifling to varing degrees and none showed any sign of undo pressure and functioned just fine through the tight springed action. So in summary, I guess what I'm up to is fixed ammo breach seating a 9 Luger, seems an odd caliber to attempt this with but so far it's working. This may be the reason the little gun is more accurate than I expected with the bullet firmly held in the rifling at ignition. Any cautionary thoughs gentlemen or should I quit over thinking this and just shoot the dang thing? Gp
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by way of developing that little card for your wallet that lists 10 easy steps to cast bullet success .....one of them is to first do a chamber image to see what bullet is suggested by the other 9 rules ..
yours is a good test case ... had you first slugged your chamber/throat ....... would you have been able to pick that bester bullet in the first place ??
or modify an existing mold to the optimum shape ?
all this in the interest of establishing the 10 ( or 4 ) rules for success . oh, easy success ... which as joeb i think mentioned, is probably for various reasons about 2 to 3 moa ... non-easy success seems to be under 2 moa ...( g ) .
ken
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Yup Ken, in this case coming up with a pound cast of the throat or lack there of was as simple as loading a dummy round with a lead bullet with a full caliber nose and letting the action close and there it was rifling beginning at .800 just .050 ahead of the case mouth. It's all coming together, just at times I use a somewhat Rube Goldberg approach at getting my results. I'm going out to ventilate some beer cans now, little gun is a lot of fun. Gp
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