Several of my guns have easily adjustable triggers - the Contenders, all the M93 & M98 Mausers with drop-in Timneys & Bolds, etc. To begin with, I liked the “feel” of trigger operation which fired precisely at the end of trigger travel. But eventually I began to notice that in many instances, certain non-adjustable ones having generous amounts of over-travel just seemed to group better. (In other words: were easier to shoot smallest groups with.) Once I was convinced about that, I began to do a lot of “dry-firing” from various rests and bags, paying close attention to sight / target relationship during hammer and firing-pin release, and could easily see what was going on. Those triggers that had all overtravel tuned out of them definately jumped a bit at the “stop". And in extreme cases, plausibly while the bulllets are still in the barrel. After adding in as much “follow through” as possible, each example in turn became considerably more accurate. But others shoot my guns occasionally also, and knowledgeable (?) ones invariably tell me to “get rid of that trigger over-travel, and this will be a tack-driver". (Etc.) Is this purely an “individual” thing - or did I fail to learn how to shoot a “properly” adjusted trigger correctly? What is the theory of trigger operation and dynamics?
"Target" Trigger Adjustment
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- Last Post 23 March 2015
my preference is much different than yours, none the less, a preference: Zero creep .060” sear engagement 1 lb pull Zero over travel
If I am going to pay for it, this is what I order.
Gary
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Yes, I know that is the overwhelming preference, and I sure do wish it worked for me. I have “BuffaloRifles” with double-set arrangements, and they are not an iota any better than my ordinary Rolling Blocks. I guess a person just learns to use what he's got? ( I was just sending you a PM when this came in.)
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Having spent over 50 years with the 1903 Springfield trigger, I find I shoot a “good” one just as accurately as hunting triggers of 3 pounds with zero slack and zero over travel. I have been told by good trigger smiths, that very few except life long match shooters can tell what zero over travel is really. Most triggers have so much slop, that you are pulling all of the tolerances out of the mechanism, putting stress on the digit lever and dropping the sear. This makes the whole rifle vibrate. Zero over travel means that the trigger mechanism operates, the sear falls, THEN the digit lever stops. FWIW, Ric
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I don't prefer any over travel after the .060". Just a preference, I know some shooters just keep squeezing when there is no over travel and it effects their follow through. I don't have that habit. I like to squeeze through sear release to a stop with no over travel.
Gary
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I like a trigger that doesn't move much either before or after although I don't mind a good two stage trigger. However, I had a Mauser single shot 22 rimfire made in the 1930s. Forgot the model number but the one with the firing pin in the middle of the bolt face and the barrel out of line with the action -- like the most recent Kimber rimfires. The trigger action was a very long uniform movement with no increase or decrease in force needed. It also had a lot of over travel. It was the opposite of what American shooters, including me, want.
However, I was surprised to find that once I got used to it I could shoot it very well offhand. It was a great trigger at least for me as far as actually effectiveness was concerned and cut down on the number of wide shots I usually had. My other Mausers all had more or less conventional two stage triggers so I doubt that it came from the factory like that. Somewhere along the line a previously owner must have set it up that way. As usual, there is more than one way to skin a cat and we are not all the same.
John
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Having spent 40 some years shooting Bullseye pistol before I graduated to bench rest CB rifle, I've found I'm quite happy with a nice, crisp 3 lb. trigger on Production and Issue Military class rifles.
However, I brought a Type 14 Nambu pistol back from Okinawa (paid a half pint of rum for it, just a few days after VJ day). While that thing was a long way from anything like a target pistol, I often wished someone could put that trigger mechanism on an accurate .22 or .45. It had a long, easy pull that went off somewhere around the middle of the swing, with no discernible catch, jump or change in pull when the striker fell.
Anybody else have experience with that Nambu trigger?
Wes
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Wes and John, You are both describing a trigger operation that was not uncommon in Europe and Asia in the 20th century. The principle is to have a deep notch (several times deeper than Gary likes!!) with a high mechanical advantage trigger lever. It can have heavy, cheap to make, springs but parts are hardened well. As the finger lever swings over a wide arc, it feels smooth and when the sear/hammer is released there is not feeling of release, the trigger just keeps moving back. The only US made triggers like these are the double action only Iver Johnson and Hopkins and Allen revolvers, that I can remember. I had a friend who shot his '03 in off hand matches with the rear lump of the trigger ground off. The sear worked only off of the primary, “slack", front lump of the trigger. It worked about like John's except the release was always in the same relative spot of trigger movement. Ric
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I think I'm beginning to see glimmers of recognition for the thrust of my observation. I prefaced the initial question by admitting that I had thought a “light, crisp, let-off with no over-travel” was sensual as the dickens - but I eventually learned that it did not, of itself, promote superior accuracy. And (for my own individuals purposes) I spent a few months figuring out exactly why that was. I was quite negative about that brief venture into “electronic” triggers, but did see how they might have some benefit in that regard.
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My friends theory was that the trigger was still swinging backwards another 3/8 of an inch so the bullet was out of the barrel before he reached the end of travel. So there was no trigger finger induced flyers. He just got “into the zone” of sight alignment and started moving the trigger with no stops or hesitations.
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That is PRECISELY what I discovered! I have a Uberti, visually the Single-Shot Remington Rolling Block “Army” pistol of the 1860's. Scuttlebutt says that it is one of a very brief issue of a matched-pair of (whimsical) “Duelling Pistols", half-octagon - half-round, 9” bbl. But in 357 Mag. Obviously far too un-authentic and “politically incorrect” to remain on the US market longer than maybe 48 hrs? But, internally, it is far more sophisticated than the originals could have possibly been.. “Hair Trigger"? Incredibly so, but I have beat it around fairly severely on full cock, and it refuses to fire “accidentally". But,- even with advance caution,- everyone who has fired it has had the first “unintentional discharge” into the berm for the first shot. I had a guest (one of the finest offhand shots I have ever seen), and after running the plate-rack at only 25 yds, he backed to the opposite berm to create some interesting challenge at all (and he still consistently ran the plate rack!) Now, if I could just figure a way to introduce some over-travel, maybe I could shoot it almost that good? (Isn't it tantalizing to wonder what the history of something you pick up dirt-cheap at a gunshow actually IS- just because so few vendors know, or care, what they have, and so few attendees who actually know what they are looking at? (Or for - for that matter?) Have you followed the topic of gunshot injuries at gunshows? ---- 'Nuff Said! (And, No, this isn't any kind of a condemnation, because you were in far more danger driving to - and from - the gunshow.) Too few idiots actually go to gunshows - but EVERYONE drives cars & trucks.
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I remember quite a few years ago an acquaintance of mine from over Bremerton way, who shot international pistol competition, rigged up a magnet on his trigger and another magnet taped to his trigger finger, arranged so that they repelled each other. His finger never touched the trigger; the gun went off when the two magnets got close enough to repel each other. I suppose that would give somewhat the same feel...but I was never tempted to try anything like that. Besides, it wouldn't have been legal for Bullseye matches.
Wes
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Absolutely Fantastic! That would never have occured to me in a hundred years! (Isn't it amazing what the mind can come up with in a liberated and motivated state?) To me, that is what CB shooting (in particular) is all about. Historically, the jump from blackpowder to smokeless - and the change from lead to jacketed, happened virtually simultaneously - and before lead bullets had time to be researched and advanced into smokeless, high-velocity use. Let's face it - only “government” and “military” had the financial and conceptual capacity to do that, so a huge gap was stepped across, which cast bullet shooters are just now exploring and filling in. Now and then I read some insanely hopeful notion that paper-patching cast bullets may be the answer. I addressed myself diligently and enthusiastically to paper-patching technology for several years - in hopes that experts of the time who generally agreed that grooved & lubed bullets are superior for smokeless shooting, were wrong. (That is one of the approaches that failed big-time for me, but I have not joined the crowd of shooters who keep promoting it, - hoping that SOMEONE ELSE will expend the expense, time, and effort to make it work.) If that sounds cynical, just note that the CBA doesn't have a “paper patch” class, and no member seems to be dumb enough to shoot them in competition. Nice idea, with some success toward the end of the blackpowder era, but (aside from spectacular potential velocities) dead as a dodo today when accuracy is the issue. (
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Wes, Very ingenious with the two magnets!! M. W., After the Spanish War and the Philippine's quagmire, the U.S. spent lots of time and effort under Teddy to increase hit skills with the rifle. Free, or nearly free, ammo and reloading components for 30 US Army and new 30 Model 1906. Other than Franklin Mann, nobody did anything new after 1906. It was only in the 1970's the guys that started CBA followed Col. Harrison into the modern age of cast bullets. The paper patch and modern powder coated bullets are very similar, Great hunting bullets of pure lead at high velocity. Only average accuracy, but like Sharp's paper patched bullets, kills buffalo very dead. Ric
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"Followed Col.Harrison into --------"I read the book too soon after beginning CB's to comprehend much, and only recently inherited a copy of my own. The focus and timing of the book did puzzle me a bit. Thanks, Ric, for suggesting that it was written to begin filling in that gap. That makes me appreciate it even more. I need to go thru it again. I also inherited hundreds & hundreds of the Lyman 301 patching bullets (and the mould blocks). Somewhere I had read a very brief mention of shooting land diameter CB's and tried it myself with surprising success, but I am not sure if it was in the E.H.Harrison work, to validate the notion. Maybe I will find it next reading? I already had a .301 lube die, so I lubed them and dusted with mica, and seated them over thick .315” PVC wads with just enough roll crimp to pass the “shake test". Definite hunting accuracy and no fouling problems. Curiosity satisfied, I didn't go any further into load development.
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Gary,learned I've a lot from your posts. A bit ago you mentioned improving the set trigger on a Lyman GPR. I also have problems set trigger on a Lyman GPR. I can't find your post in which you mentioned a product you got from Midway that was a big help to you. I would sure like to get the name of that product so that I could clean up my set triggers.
Thank you for all your help and information!!
Bob 11B50 [email protected]
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The high quality trigger oil I mentioned is Blue Wonder Disotec XFR. Recall I also mentioned removing the entire trigger assembly from my Lyman GPR and cleaning it in boiling dish-soap water with a brush, rinsing then drying and applying the Disotec to all friction areas. After that, I brushed the excess to lightly coat all areas of the entire assembly.
I originally got it from MidwayUsa but it is discontinued there. I have found it available on Amazon.com:
My problem with the GPR trigger was only powder fouling that needed a good cleaning. The GPR trigger is excellent quality and easily adjustable, but muzzle loading triggers need much more frequent cleaning than triggers on smokeless firearms. My problem with the trigger was completely my own fault and fixed with thorough cleaning and the excellent Blue Wonder Disotec XFR lubricant.
Gary
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