Some days are just better than others. What was originally disappointment when I first took the measurements on my new 357 Handi have turned to optimism. After some thought here is what I decided to do with the long chamber. I did a pound test with a soft slug to get some chamber measurements and found that it would accept brass up to 1.403 long well over the standard 1.280 so I bought some 357 max brass and cut it to 1.394. Then choosing two heavy for caliber bullets, A Saeco #352 240gr.fp and a LBT 200gr fn cast by Mr. Tim Turner, thanks again Tim, seated them to engage the rifling. The 200gr LBT was over 4.5gr Unique and the 240gr Saeco over 4gr of the same. Shooting over my CED chronograph the 240gr bullet had an average of 886fps and an SD of 8. The 200gr averaged 1041 with an SD of 11. Both grouped well considering there was enough wind to blow over the sky screens if not shooting down wind. 1.25 x just under 2 for the LBT. I have never sent 240grs down range and had the felt recoil of a pellet gun before. Look out 300 Blackout guys I think I've found a sud-sonic GP
357 Handi
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- Last Post 09 November 2014
Wonderful caliber, .357. Have you ever run across a military use of that size? I always wondered why they dropped all the way down to 30 cal (& smaller), from 45cal when smokeless & jackets showed up. I like what you've done with 357Max cases in over-length Mag chamber. I've done that everywhere possible in all chambers, and it unexpectedly solved several problems simultaneously. 357 mag is always considered good for 38 spl as well, and most shooters use them interchangeably with passable results. But in case you have never done so, try loading your 357 cases exactly the same as you would 38 spl, including overall seating length, and see if they don't shoot measureably better than they do from 38 spl cases. I'm not certain exactly what that unfilled chamber gap does - but it sure isn't anything good. (And eventually it can erode Mag chambers enough to cause sluggish extraction of 357 Mag cases.)
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Thanks for your comments Mustafa. I've noticed that Sinclair offers some small plugs that fit in fired unsized case necks, with these your said to be able to measure the true depth of the neck portion of the chamber with cal. specific plugs. Has anyone here used these? Is it just better to do a pound test or chamber cast? GP
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I honestly have never used one of those gauges, have only looked at the illustrations to guess how they are supposed to work. I assumed they were primarily to arrive at an overall cartridge length which would have the bullets just touch the rifling origen or how much short of that you prefer. For CB's, I always rig something lo-tech to get the same info, or just trial & error with the seater die adjuster until the cartridge chambers to suit me, and leaves land marks on the bullet just ahead of the case mouths. I'm guessing that the commercial accessories may be primarily for jacketed bullets where a bit of free-run to the rifling keeps max loads from becoming excessive, but I'm not a jacket shooter and don't even understand jacket shooters. I haven't figured out how a CB shooter really needs one of those gauges, but I am all ears for an explanation.
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Those chamber length gauges are little inexpensive tools used to accurately measure the exact chamber length of a rifle. For lack of a better term, it is simply a small “button” cylinder that is inserted into the mouth of a fired case after the case has been shortened a bit and the neck slotted to hold the gauge under tension. The case with the gauge inserted in the mouth is chambered and extracted. The total length of the gauge and case is then measured. It has nothing to do with seating depth, only finding the exact chamber length of the rifle. And is much easier and more accurate that doing a chamber or pound cast. I have one in 30 cal. and the results can be very revealing sometimes. Particularly when measuring chambers in old military rifles. I find it useful for my own information and when reforming brass for cast bullets.
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Now that sounds like something I really should have. Who sells them and what is the catalog name of the item?
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RD has it exactly right.
I have used the gadget to measure chamber length as well as doing the same job by slugging. Both work fine but the gadget does it much quicker once you have a case shortened and sized correctly to resist the right amount so the gadget will hold the measurement as you extract.
I use it in any any new 223 rifle to make sure that my extra long neck “close the gap” cases made from 222 magnum cased will work.
I am very skeptical that the dreaded “crimp the case neck into the bullet upon seating and blow up your rifle” theory is true of for cast bullets. However, I assume that having the neck of my long neck cases crimped by the chamber into the bullet upon seating can't improve accuracy. So I avoid it by measuring chamber length before using them in a new rifle. Same would apply for 30-06 cased shortened to 308 for same reason.
It is also interesting to know the actual chamber length compared to the very conservative trim lengths recommended. There is usually a huge gap that apparently doesn't bother JB shooting but I don't think we know whether it affects CBs or not and if it does how it does it. I discussed the issue in my Goblin Gap article in FS #214 but didn't know the answer then or now.
John
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Now that sounds like something I really should have. Who sells them and what is the catalog name of the item?
Sinclair/Brownells is where I got mine.
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Excellent! I just got a new Brownell's a couple of months ago. I can't answer the question about how much that gap ahead of case mouths degrades accuracy, either, but there were other issues that cropped up as soon as i began shooting CB's. Not at all uncommon to find not only combustion and lube residue blown back onto case neck exteriors, but atomized alloy, too, with starting loads especially. Then working up to load levels for routine shooting, that alloy remained in the chamber gaps and accumulated within 5 rounds or so to come out attached to the case mouths themselves. Several years later John Rhodes wrote a TFS report on it, referring to it as “ring around the collar syndrome” (+/-), so I knew it had happened to someone besides me. By then, of course, I had long since learned how to deal with it by letting cases lengthen enough to fill the chambers, instead of keeping them trimmed back to book specifications (which can commonly be over .040” short) I never worried about increased pressures in the least, partly because even the hardest lead alloys just don't have enough shear strength to do it, and because when necks obdurate out to chamber walls and release the bullet, they also shorten a few “thou". Same way I thought about the issue of barrel crown damage - it may not do any measureable harm - but it doesn't do any measureable good, either. This approach solves the problem of very low pressure “silent” loads shortening rimless cases (and they are notorious case-blackeners, too, before you fit them to your chambers. No need to drill flash holes bigger if the cases partially “headspace” on the case mouths.
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Mr. Dupraz and Mr. Anderson: That is what I was hoping to hear, more experienced hands that have used this tool. Being they are inexpensive I'm going to get some next order. Seems to me that with cast bullets this void would allow some swaging as most of my loads are seated up real tight. That said, on the subject of max C.O.L. I find it very Handi (pun intended) to seat a bullet base up, flush with the case mouth and seat your bullet in the neck with a push of a wooden dowel. Then just measure the amount case sticks out of the chamber and you have the measurement depth for seating the selected bullet. Thanks for the replies. GP
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Base first bullets will work if the bullet is big enough. If not it may slip into the freebore/bullet seat and then you are measuring something else. There is more than one way to skin a mouse.
John
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I may be missing something here so please help me out here. This is used with my Handi rifles and T/C Encores. I seat a bullet tight, inverted in the neck flush with the mouth of the case and then insert another bullet in the chamber with the light push of the dowel. Then putting the case in the chamber bullets base to base take my measurement. Giving me the measure of how deep to seat the bullet in the case. I most often seat the bullet about .010 long and close the break barrel actions to finish seat them. As you say lots of ways to get there. Thanks GP
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