Factory crimp for .45-70?

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  • Last Post 09 November 2014
Pop posted this 21 October 2014

Is it necessary, or even desirable to put a factory crimp on a .45-70 case loaded with lead for a modern single shot rifle.

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Dale53 posted this 21 October 2014

I have a relatively long history with single shot rifles in various calibers. It is NOT necessary or even desirable to crimp cartridges used in single shots.

On the other hand, if you use a lever action rifle, it is not only desirable but really necessary to crimp cartridges. The pressure from the magazine spring WILL deep seat bullets that are not crimped.

FWIW Dale53

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Pop posted this 21 October 2014

Thank you Dale!! That's kind of what I was thinking. Guess I'll save the die for a 1886 sometime in the future.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 21 October 2014

but there is another function of the * lee * factory crimp die ... to act as a final quality control ...SIZER ... to help your not-much-closing-camming single shot to chamber easier.

same function for revolvers and semi-autos.

i visualize the inhabitants at the LEE works as little pixie-people, running around in little pointy hats, living in hollow trees, and each one an idiot-savant, somehow coming up with goofy but perfectly wonderful ideas and gadgets.

i just know that their very next creation is going to be a lead bullet bump die, to start with:: a 30 cal., 1.5 degree included taper, with inserts included for 0.309, 0.310, and 0.312 . i have just known this for 30 years now ... oh, the price would be $27.50 .

has anybody ever seen richard lee and george leonard herter in the same place at the same time ??

ken

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Pop posted this 21 October 2014

So was that a yes Ken?

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onondaga posted this 21 October 2014

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=8333>Pop

You can use the Lee FCD for 45-70 to close case mouth flare needed for seating cast bullets. You can carefully set the FCD to set the case mouth flare back to zero and not crimp at all.

I do this for my single shot .500 S&W Mag rifle using the seating die set to roll the case mouth flare back to zero  and I use  the Lee FCD on several other single shot calibers to return case mouth flare back to zero.

There is also a minimum case mouth flare that will aid in seating cast bullets that is so little that you don't have to worry about returning the flare back to zero. You can set that up by using a micrometer on the case mouth and measuring after sizing. Then set the case mouth flare die to flare case mouth + .005” from the sized measurement. A small flare of .005” does not need to be returned to zero if the loaded rounds chamber easily, and they usually will do so. That slight flare also has other benefits. It will assist in centering bullets in the chamber and it will enhance gas seal of the brass upon firing the rounds. A good thing!

Gary

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Pop posted this 21 October 2014

Hanks Gary, very valuable information, as always.

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Smedley Up Over posted this 22 October 2014

If you do not crimp when using 4895, your barrel will look like a chimney

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Pop posted this 22 October 2014

Thank you Smedley

what I am picking up here is that although crimping might not be necessary in my 1885, doing so won't hurt anything. or did I miss something.

I use a Lee turret press, it holds 4 dies. I already have the die, I'm going to use it every time. I'm thinking that if I don't make it part of routine for .45-70, I'm likely to forget it when I really need it, 4895 is one of my go to powders

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onondaga posted this 22 October 2014

H4895 can be coaxed to burn more cleanly and not leave a mess in big bore calibers.

I use low volume loads of H4895 in .458 Win Mag with the addition of BPI Original Filler to bring  the load density up to 105% compressed loads. Then the H4895 burns very cleanly in big bores. BPI Original:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/695248/bpi-shot-buffer-original-500cc-approximately-1-2-lb?cm_vc=ProductFinding>http://www.midwayusa.com/product/695248/bpi-shot-buffer-original-500cc-approximately-1-2-lb?cmvc=ProductFinding

Also direct from the manufacturer: http://www.ballisticproducts.com/prodinfo.asp?number=BUFFER>http://www.ballisticproducts.com/prodinfo.asp?number=BUFFER

The BPI also acts as a quasi gas check and protects the base of plain base and hollow base bullets, this also extends the pressure range of bullet alloy very well and allows hotter loads for your alloy with a better gas seal.

I routinely use BPI in .458 Win Mag and .500 S&W with plain base bullets and gas check bullets. The BPI meters very consistently from my old Lyman #55 measure with the clapper used.

Gary

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Smedley Up Over posted this 24 October 2014

My 45/70 loads are always crimped. Got both types of crimps too. Been using the roll crimp for smokeless loads, and will be using the taper crimp for paper patch loads.

When building black powder loads, I always fill and crimp the cast to the cases. even the duplex loads :-O

For smokeless, I build them full up, just like a holy black load.

Powder, veggie wad, dacron filler, cast boolit, then crimp. I use round nose (405gr)and postels (500gr) out of the single shot, soon paper patch (thats why im visiting here)

When I got lazy once, I just powdered them, and stuffed the boolit on. The group opened up from 100 yards and beyond.

So now I fill and crimp the all.

Most work than necessary, yup, costly yup, hitting the 550 yard gong..... Priceless

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bandmiller2 posted this 24 October 2014

Wile not necessary it may help when finalizing an accurate load, some combos it seems to even things out. Frank C.

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M. W. Curtess posted this 08 November 2014

I use a lot of Lee die sets, and I shoot a lot of single-shot rifles.  There's 2 kinds of Lee “factory crimp” dies.  The standard one is a real aggressive, sort'a segmented one, that is probably for jackets that don't have a crimp groove.  Whatever it is for, I don't like it, beginning with the way it sets case mouths up to begin to split  ASAP.  The good one is the “carbide” factory crimp die, which is fully adjustable, not only to insure ammo will chamber, but also to apply as much really nice crimp (either roll or taper) as you desire.  Your question really can't be answered unless we know for certain which factory crimp die you have. For 45-70 (or any straight case) the carbide version is available (and I think included in 4 - die sets?), but the one in bottle-neck cartridge sets is the horror that I wish had never been invented. We bullet casters need to always bear in mind that for the most part we have to make compromises that jacketed shooters do not, and the above case-in-point relates to that.

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onondaga posted this 08 November 2014

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=8491>M. W. Curtess

Lee has 3 types of crimps,  taper, roll and collet. All are easily adjustable with a wide range from closing a flared case mouth to zero for cast bullets, to a very heavy crimp and anywhere in between.

If you are over working case mouths crimping, your adjustment is way too much crimp.

The easiest one to adjust is the collet FCD because you can actually use a micrometer to measure the amount of crimp. The taper and roll are just visual, but taper can be measured too.

You mention getting segmented crimp marks setting up case neck split. That clearly indicates severe over adjustment of a collet  FCD.  Lee Teck can clearly explain how to check and set a collet FCD with a micrometer for the range of .002- .005” for the range of Heavy to light crimp. ,,,, To get a segmented crimp you have to be crimping much more than the recommended range and likely decreasing case mouth diameter with the crimp .020” or more.

The dies can be over adjusted and you are doing that.

Gary

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M. W. Curtess posted this 08 November 2014

Thanks for picking that up. I had misgivings that the topic was so outdated I was wasting my time.  I can see how you interpret my observations as a worst-case-scenario, but in my experience, however little of that segmented crimp I applied, the damage was done, and no amount of neck-sizing and tumble-cleaning can completely remove it. Mercy! I still stand by my suggestion that conventional crimping forms are better for cast bullet purposes.  Can I PROVE (sorry, B U I is very difficult on iPad) it? No. It is just a suggestion, based on only 20 years of (obsessed?) experience.  Gimme' a break!

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M. W. Curtess posted this 09 November 2014

Not to belabor the matter, when a micrometer gets involved, the segmented crimp takes another hit, because the crimp is not continuous. There are narrow vectors between the collet jaws which get less crimp. That may actually be an advantage, if one considers that the high spots may in fact center the cases better in the chamber necks. But as so much is, in CB shooting, so many factors are difficult/impossible to prove. 

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onondaga posted this 09 November 2014

http://castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=8491>M. W. Curtess

You are still running from the fact that when your die is adjusted in a way that segments the crimp that you have incorrectly adjusted your die way past what is needed, what works and what is the recommended setting range for the die from the maker.

Lee has limited the size of their printed directions and do not include directions regarding thousandths of an inch closure of the case mouth with FCD die setting but you can verify this and the range I mentioned by calling Lee Technical Department. They will advise you as they have advised me how to use a micrometer for FCD die setup.

Actually, over crimping to the point of segmenting will also damage your cast bullets and effect accuracy. That excessive amount of crimp can pull gas checks off upon firing  GC bullets and can also put a segmented scar at the base  edge of a plain base bullet upon firing and be a cause of gas jetting accuracy loss.

You don't mention your consistent group size that your 45-70 shoots , But I believe you can show yourself that it will shoot better when you crimp correctly instead of excessively.

Your men about centering the round when chambering by aid of a segmented crimp does over work the brass and cause splitting.  Your single shot needs no crimp but you can also set your case mouth flare die with a micrometer to flare the sized cases to an increase of .005” diameter case mouth flare. Bullets will seat easily with an .005” flare and that small flare can be left after seating bullets. It will aid in centering bullets in the chamber very well with no addition of a crimp that you do not need for a single shot.

I do that “leaving a flare trick” with cast loads for my single shot rifles in .500 S&W, 7.62X39 and .223 Rem.

Gary

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M. W. Curtess posted this 09 November 2014

All that, too.  I solved that problem by not using the FCD's at all,  once I saw the problem with them.  And I repeat:  If we are talking about the same die, however little crimp it applies is segmented. The gaps between the collet fingers is just at their widest.   I mostly shoot Mid-range (up to 500m) silhouette, and am set up to reload without case sizing at all in 45-70, since I use compressed filler loads.  But a slight crimp is necessary to keep the bullets in the cases just for handling. I flare with Lyman expander plugs, or powder-thru expanders if available, then seat and crimp with the normal seater die.  7.62x39 Single Shot? I hope it is a Handi Rifle and if so that you like it as much as I do mine.  Those I do have to FLS and crimp normally because the ammo also gets used in my SKS.  Where possible, I get the Lee “RGB” 2-die sets to avoid paying for FCD and “dead length seater” dies which I will never use anyway.  My first comment on this topic was to the shooter who asked about crimping 45-70, with the intent to recommend the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die. It is not offered in my latest (2011) Lee catalog, but hopefully may be availble now. 

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onondaga posted this 09 November 2014

My X39 is a  Remington Spartan single with chrome lined bore and a great shooter with cast bullets.

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M. W. Curtess posted this 09 November 2014

Wow!  Even better - Much better!  What is your favorite bullet & load?  I've got all kinds of stuff, 308x1.5 Barnes, 30 Herrett, but the first time I really looked at the  x39 case it just seeemed to have the most potential for CB's. Shoots a remarkable variety of designs between 130 and 180 gr, but I've really not found one more dependable than the Lee C.E.Harris lube-grooved one.  I'm looking at the Accurate Molds catalog now, hoping to find  one close enough to that one to risk buying it. I'm into my third sc Lee now and it's on its last legs.  I had a MAK47 with a drum magazine for a couple of years (not mine, tho) before I had to return it.  Feeding them (plus other applications) from sc moulds is a labor of love (gross understatement).  Couple of years back, I thought I was into a group buy for the Lee 6 cav but nothing came of it.  Apologies to all for going so far off topic here, but one thing led to another--------------------

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 09 November 2014

mr. Em:: off topic ? nothing here is off topic if even remotely to do with shooting ... ... 8 weeks of debate has settled that; for the best, i think.

ken

ps:  oh, except politics and religion ... although i thought shooting WAS a religion ... ( g ) .

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