Case annealing

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  • Last Post 30 October 2014
billglaze posted this 15 October 2014

I noticed Joe mentioning case annealing, and I thought I'd throws this out to the group.  What is the favorite method?  I don't want to go to the trouble/expense of having some expensive custom tooling made  Only to find out that it's unnecessary. I thought my elderly copy of Phil Sharpe's book had the method in it, (maybe it does?) but I can't find it.  And, Earl Naramore's book doesn't have anything relevant in it, either. It seemed to me that either Sharpe or maybe an older Lyman manual said to stand the cases in 1/2” of water, and heat the mouths until they were a dull red, and then tip the cases over into the water.  Seemed reasonable, but I can't find that article.  Naramore has a rather complicated method, whereby the case mouth has to be polished, and the polish watched closely as the case is heated, etc. etc. which seems over-complicated.  (He goes on and on.) Anyway, I have a quantity of nickel-plated Federal Match cases that are like family members and I hate to see dying of broken necks.  Looking for a solution. Bill

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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RicinYakima posted this 15 October 2014

I wrote an article for last month's “Fowling Shot” using a PID controlled lead pot and an easy to make fixture. Ric

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 15 October 2014

not to put numbers on it just now but i am of the school that wants brass necks just de-stressed, not dead soft. this occurs at just before faintly red. indicating temp sticks are available from brownells.

and yeah, i have done the dull red in a dark room also; worked ok, but easy to get dead soft.

also, the least the brass is worked the longer it lasts ... tight neck chambers plus bushing or;; lee collet dies with correct mandrel.

ken

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OU812 posted this 16 October 2014

I use a cordless drill and 1/4” drive socket. You can buy the 1/4” drive bit that holds socket at any hardware store. In a dark room spin the case in good fitting socket and heat neck/shoulder with propane torch until neck turns dull red. Dump bullet then do the next one. I do not use water to cool.

If you dip necks in lead, be sure to leave fired primer in case. Some smoke the case so that lead will not stick. I wish RacinYakima would give us his short version.

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billglaze posted this 16 October 2014

I saw the article; very interesting and effective.  However, I lack the lead pot, (would have no other use for it than annealing) and I have been trying to figure out just what PID stood for; it's at the edge of my memory, but I'm probably having a long-term “Senior Moment."Getting the aluminum plates and having them machined would take some doing, too.I already have a Oxy-Acetelene jewelers torch, as well as some pans that I can use.(Assuming, of course, that my wife is otherwise occupied!)  So, I'm following the KISS principle for now.  Thanks for your helpful article in the FS; I'll keep the temps in mind. Bill

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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RicinYakima posted this 16 October 2014

"A proportional-integral-derivative controller (PID controller) is a control loop feedback mechanism (controller) used in industrial control systems.”

Sorry, it is just way too long. The basic idea is to use a PID controller to heat a lead pot to +/- 2 degrees F. and float an aluminum disc on the lead surface. The disc has holes for the necks of the cases to rest. You can stress relieve to “half hard” in about 10 seconds at 750 degrees.

Ric

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billglaze posted this 16 October 2014

Ric, my temperature info while casting comes from a Lyman thermometer. I have no idea how accurate it is, (made in China) but it seems that the Lyman furnace cycles at just about 5 degree increments. As I say, I have little idea of the absolute, and I'm trusting that the 5 degree incremental is near correct. I woudn't bet solid money either way. Bill

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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R. Dupraz posted this 16 October 2014

This topic has been discussed at length before. A search will bring up a lot of info.

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Tom Acheson posted this 16 October 2014

IF the photo “sticks” this what I've had fun doing.

A special torch tip. There is a series of holes on the ID of “loop” which directs the gas flame towards the center of the loop.

In the well mentioned “poorly lit dim room", stand the cases up in an old pie pan with about 1” of water in the pan. Hold the torch over the end of the case mouth for a 7-count and use the loop tip to knock the case over.

See the follow-up post where a second photo is included.

Tom

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Tom Acheson posted this 16 October 2014

The other photo...

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John Alexander posted this 16 October 2014

Ken Campbell Iowa wrote: also, the least the brass is worked the longer it lasts ... tight neck chambers plus bushing or;; lee collet dies with correct mandrel.

ken Right on Ken.  The pity of it is that brass would seldom need annealing if reloading dies didn't work it so much.  Most of my conventional dies reduce the neck far more than necessary making the expander plug hard to come back out and possibly stretching the case.  Neck thicknesses of brass don't vary THAT much.    I used the colllet die while reloading a test bunch of brass to failure for an ordinary factory chamber with the typical oversized neck portion (reducing the neck OD from .253-4” to .244” for each reload. I did no annealing and got the first neck split at well over 150 reloads.    The die manufacturers could do better without having to hold too tight a tolerance. Maybe we should complain more.   John

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.22-10-45 posted this 17 October 2014

About 10 years ago, I bought a quantity of new RWS Hornet brass..this stuff really brought out the accuracy in my Hornet..extreemly uniform..although quite soft. The only reason I annealed the stuff was in sizing..and I am doing minimal working of brass using Redding bushing type sizer...was necks were springing back to lack grip on .226 dia. cast bullets. I used a small butane mini-torch & only heated neck area until bluish color appeared..no way near dull red..(I checked in dark basement). Now another problem... I taper size front band to match rifles throat/leade angle & this band is fully engraved by rifling as action closes..now after annealing, a gas-checked bullet will be pushed back into case if I try to seat to originl depth. However..using the same style bullet in plain-base I can seat to original depth with no problem. Accuracy is still good with g.c...if I seat so engraving of band is less. I think the slightly greater dia. of check is expanding neck enough to lessen hold on bullet body. I'm hoping with continued use the hardness will return to cases.

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billglaze posted this 17 October 2014

Well, I tried the old tip-over-in-the-water trick, using the jewelers torch with oxy-acetelene. Didn't take long, but the torch made it difficult to control the heat as closely as I would have liked. Boy, is that little thing hot! I used to silver solder and braze small parts wth it, but they weren't nearly as critical as the thin brass of case necks. But, I have 50 cases annealed and ready to be loaded and shot. The proof being in the pudding, I'm going to shoot them next week, and then the test: do I lose any in the case prep after the firing? We'll see. To everyone who replied: thanks a bunch for your input; it all gets filed away in the memory banks and will come back as useful help for next time. Bill

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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John Alexander posted this 17 October 2014

.22-10-45 wrote: About 10 years ago, I bought a quantity of new RWS Hornet brass..this stuff really brought out the accuracy in my Hornet..extreemly uniform..although quite soft. The only reason I annealed the stuff was in sizing..and I am doing minimal working of brass using Redding bushing type sizer...was necks were springing back to lack grip on .226 dia. cast bullets. I used a small butane mini-torch & only heated neck area until bluish color appeared..no way near dull red..(I checked in dark basement). Now another problem... I taper size front band to match rifles throat/leade angle & this band is fully engraved by rifling as action closes..now after annealing, a gas-checked bullet will be pushed back into case if I try to seat to originl depth. However..using the same style bullet in plain-base I can seat to original depth with no problem. Accuracy is still good with g.c...if I seat so engraving of band is less. I think the slightly greater dia. of check is expanding neck enough to lessen hold on bullet body. I'm hoping with continued use the hardness will return to cases. Friendly question: why didn't you just get a slightly smaller bushing if the original brass was springing back causing loss of grip?  That would have been easier than annealing a bunch of brass and would have avoided the necks now being too soft and maybe causing the problem you mentioned. John

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.22-10-45 posted this 18 October 2014

John, I do have a couple of smaller dia. bushings..the problem did not go away..the accuracy was no longer consistant..it was as if the brass was just too springy to stay sized. Maybe it's the very thin brass thickness to begin with?

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Brodie posted this 18 October 2014

22 10 45 :  The necks are springy and won't hold their sizing because they need to be annealed.  The thinner the metal the quicker it work hardens.  Even though you have worked the brass as little as you could get away with it will still harden after repeated sizing and shooting.  I would anneal it by holding the in a lead pot @ 650 to 700 Degrees Farenheit.  Rather than any torch treatment.  You just need to take a little of the stress out of it not make it dead soft.  Brodie

B.E.Brickey

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CB posted this 25 October 2014

Ah! Nuts! I wrote a reply and lost it for a stupid emoticon. I'm out'a here until someone comes up with a contributor-friendly site. Basically, case annealing is (to quote someone important) “fraud, frost, and delusion".

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billglaze posted this 30 October 2014

Well, I've now shot my annealed cases a few times. I'm satisfied that annealing helped assure their life being extended. Of course, at this stage of the game, that's just speculation--but so many things we try seem to be based on just that--speculation.
A small side benefit is that the bullets seem to seat easier, and, when withdrawing the neck-sized case over the expanding button, there is not near the resistance I felt before. As far as helping accuracy, I can't state, but, after all, the prime idea wasn't to increase accuracy, but to keep my cases from dying. I'll have to keep an eye on that aspect, but as of now, all seems well. Bill

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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cheatermk3 posted this 30 October 2014

You can make a “spinner” by double-nutting an RCBS primer pocket brush and sticking it into the correct size(for the nuts) socket--then attach a square/hex adapter, put it in your electric screwdriver or dremel.  The brush goes into the primer pocket of your de-primed case (of course).  Spin on a slow speed in a low propane flame until the neck/shoulder begins to change color then dump into a bowl of water. 

I had to wrap the nuts in scotch tape to keep the whole assembly from falling into the water.

Works great.

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Brodie posted this 30 October 2014

billglaze;  Years ago I used to hand forge (hammer out) sterling ware.  As you worked the metal (silver, nickle, jewler's bronze ( probably the closest to brass cases) you could tell by the sound of the metal when you hit it how it was getting harder from being worked.  In fact there was a particular 'ring' that occurred just before the next hammer blow caused the metal to split and break.  THAt was you last chance to anneal the piece before you ruined it. 

22Hornet cases are very thin at the neck and subject to work hardening (from firing and sizing) much quicker than brass that is thicker.  Brodie

B.E.Brickey

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