45-70 cast bullets

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  • Last Post 16 June 2014
likhon09 posted this 01 April 2014

Looking at getting some cast bullets for a 45 and was wondering what everyone's using? is one brand better than the http://www.friendswoodbullet.com/>bullet casting other and bullets with a gas check the better way to go than standard cast bullets?

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joeb33050 posted this 01 April 2014

I've not found a gas check necessary or even useful in 45 cal bullets . I've also found that lighter bullets work just fine up to 200 yards or maybe 300. Lyman 457191 at ~300 gr. is accurate and has bearable recoil. 457193 at ~400 grains has more recoil and is still accurate. 457125 at ~500 grains beats the dickens out of me. Long range is a story in itself.For up to 200-300 yards a charge of around 12 grains of Unique works fine, some like 10 gr., others like 14 gr. SR4759 has been the most accurate powder in 45-70 for me for 50+ years, but it's not being made any more.I like Lyman molds/bullets.

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joeb33050 posted this 01 April 2014

I should add that bigger bullets frequently work better = more accurately. I like a .460” bullet for newer guns, old gun bores vary. I don't size 45s.

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R. Dupraz posted this 01 April 2014

Too many unknowns here to be offering any valid advice.   Black powder or smokeless? Twist rate? Full charge or reduced loads? Intended use?   The bullet needs to fit and matched to the appropriate range of rifling twist in the rifle just like any other cast pill.    Personally, I am done buying Lyman molds. They aren't what they used to be and have become a crap shoot. My first choice anymore is NOE.

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Chargar posted this 01 April 2014

My first venture into the 45-70 was about 1959. I bought a Trapdoor Springfield and an old Ideal tong tool with a 405 grain bullet mold. I cast these out of pure lead and used a case full of black powder. For bullet lube, I smeared the old black Lyman lube in the grooves by hand. They worked fine. Next up in 1962 was a  Winchester 86 in 45-70. The first was fired with the above Ideal bullet and 4895, 4227 and 4198 powders. The velocity ran the from about 1,200 fps to about 1,500 fps and good results were obtained. I also used Lyman 457483 which was a gas check version of the Ideal 405. My records show a powder charge of 50/4895 with good accuracy. Recoil was stout. In 1964, I bought a short barreled 86 Winchester in 40-82 with a badly rusted bore. I sent it to P.O. Ackley to be rebored to 45-70. When it came back I installed a Redfield receiver sight and bought the Gould 330 grain HP mold (457122). I loaded this over 52/4895 and used it to take four or five Texas Whitetail deer. It killed like the hammer of Thor, but again the recoil was stout. The rifle was equipped with a curved steel butt plate. I removed it cut the stock flat, spliced a piece of wood into the top void and installed a recoil pad. That helped, but it still kicked hard, it just didn't hurt any more. All of the above rifles went by by over time and in 1985 I bought a new Ruger #1 in 45-70. I used 457483 over 25/4759 and got consistent 1.5 MOA accuracy. I still have that rifle and mold. I also loaded the 350 Hornaday RN over 55/3031 in this rifle and killed several large mule deer. It also killed very well. The rifle wears a Weaver K 2.5 scope. 2001 I purchased a Ballard rifled Marlin levergun and the RCBS 405 FNGC mold which as I understand was designed for this rifle. This bullet over 25/4759 produces outstanding accuracy and I have gone as high as 30/4759 and the accuracy held up, but the recoil picked up as well. This is now my most used load. This rifle has an old Redfield 102 receiver peep sight mounted. I fired the old Ideal 405 unsized, the bullets for the Winchesters and Ruger were sized .459 and I had a sizing die opened up to .460 for the Marlin. In all of the above rifles over the years, I have found it quite easy to get very good accuracy with cast bullets in 45-70 rifles. The limit is my tolerance for recoil. The 55/3031/350 Hornaday kicked like billy-be-jesus out of the light Ruger No. 1. Standing here in the waters of calm reflection after 50 years with the 45-70, I see no need to run bullets faster than 1.5K fps and 1.2K fps will kill any deer in the US and any range you can hit it. Gas checks may not be necessary, but it sure doesn't hurt to use them. My Lyman molds are all over 50 years old and work very well. The RCBS is 13 years old and is a super casting mold. I have no plans to buy any more.

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Bohica793 posted this 13 June 2014

I have just entered the world of the 45-70 having purchased a H&R Handi with a 3-9x Simmons scope.  I have been planning this venture for a long time and had already collected brass, 2 lbs of 5744 an this 19th century Winchester mold: http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/Bohica793/media/IMG_0840_zps7990c52f.jpg.html>http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/Bohica793/media/IMG_0841_zps162cd84b.jpg.html>http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/Bohica793/media/IMG_0842_zpsab441162.jpg.html>http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/Bohica793/media/IMG_08791_zps05fae750.jpg.html>

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giorgio de galleani posted this 13 June 2014

Do not make the mistake of wasting your money in single or double cavity cavity moulds from  the big manifacturers. Get an aluminium gang mold from the small custom makers that can guarantee sound designs and diameters. And you can make large batches of identical bullets.  I can recommend  LBT and Accuratemolds. Gas check shanks on the bullets have the purpose of sedating  , in the cast bullet  tyros,the fear of that fearful  ghost agitated by the jacketed bullet sellers, the fearful barrel leading. Keep your your alloy soft , and your diameters large , at least 460 in modern barrels (as pointed out by other Members) Choosing the  weight ,it depends on the rifle action ,single shot or repearers and the shape of the stock. Crescent buttplates are for non shooters & masochists. A sharps 1874 cavalry carbine replica,loves 300 grainers and a Ruger N3 carbine ,with a mall rubber butt pad lets me shoot 470 gr bullets at 1300 fps with ease. The Marlins repeaters can be easily shot with 400 grainers around 1500 fps. 45/70 -500 at black powder speed are painful in the long infantry rifle. It all depends on your rifles and your goals,You can do a lot of things with the old cylindrical cartrige , it is like a giant 357 M case , easier to load for than the bottle neck cartridges.            nbuying

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giorgio de galleani posted this 14 June 2014

Showing off  bullets from my mold collection.

From the left.

Lyman high recoling shoulder & face bruiser.

SAECO 4 cavity iron mould, 300 grs,459 diameter good performer for plinking and targets up to 200 meters , Best for weak action single shots.( see Lyman reloading manuals)

Old Hoch mould,nose pour single cavity ,beautifully crafted but too small diameter bullet. My mistake , I had specified 458 diameter. The presence of the gas check is meaningless.

460 gr LBT 4 cavity aluminium 4 cavity mold, a little fatter than 460 on the whole bullet lenght ,bands & nose, most satisfying bullet.It was dedicated to a 45/70 highwall replica  now I shoot it in a Ruger M77 in 458Lott at 1300-1400 fps,with and without gas checks;:.

400 wide nose  clever project of Veral Smith of LBT ,custom made for Marlin repeaters. Wonderfully efficient in the Atropos Guide Gun (if I hit them boars) With a four cavity aluminum gang mould I can cast bucketfuls of bullets in little time.

350 grs Lee 6 cavity mould sold by Ranchdog , correct dimensions and design , tumble  lubed with or without  check. Requires no sizing.

 

 

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tturner53 posted this 14 June 2014

Nice display. My only 45-70 now is an H&R single shot. It's very accurate but kicks like a mule. I like the Ranch Dog 350 in Buffalo's photo for general purposes. Occasionally I load up some of the wicked Lee 500 gr. SP just to get my mind right. It has a high BC but I can't benefit from it much as it slaps me silly in no time!

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tlkeizer posted this 15 June 2014

Greetings, I too shoot 45-70s, an 1863 and 1884 trapdoor originals, with the barrel lined for the 1863; barrel was lined by Mr. Holt and he did a wonderful job.  My loads are all black powder, by choice.  I bought a Lee 405 grain hollow base bullet new, and a used Lyman 500 grain bullet on e-bay.  Both work better pan lubed than sized with my lubrisizer. You can follow my load development under the 45-70 trapdoor excursion thread.  I have gotten good advice and recommendations from many people at this forum for which I am grateful. My best loads mirror the original government loads of 55 grains FFG for the 405 grain bullet and 70 grains for the500 grain bullet.  Going down to 65 grains on the big bullet does not appreciably affect my groups, but I use the full charge for hunting. For anything over 55 grains powder I use my neck expander to compress the 55 grains of powder, then add the extra over the top of the compressed load for fill the case to the bullet base.  This works for me keeping bullets in heart of caribou at 100 yards.  Maybe this summer I will shoot out to 200 yard for grins and giggles, but as most of my shooting has been during cold weather I have not gone out that far.  I as a personal choice decide to limit my shot distance to 50 yards for muzzle loading and 100 yards for the 45-70. If it attaches, I will include one or two of my groups from working up loads.  Enjoy your shooting. TK    

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giorgio de galleani posted this 15 June 2014

The use of black powder is both prudent,historically correct and a great fun , shooting the fascinating old weak actions.

There is ,of course , a great amount of work after the shooting.

The gun is rapidly cleaned with Ed's Red or WD40,I use no more   hot water & soap. the real pain is to clean the brass cases.  I have to brush all the hulls..

Would  please detail on your procedure?

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armalite53 posted this 15 June 2014

"Jack the Dog” is what I call my Pedersoli Sharps 1874. Target was shot at 100 yards with Creedmoor  tang sights.

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tturner53 posted this 16 June 2014

Did I already tell you about the time I shot a wild boar point blank with my Ruger #3 45-70? It was in the California coastal range, home to descendants of the true Russian Boars brought here for funsies long ago. The lead plug entered straight down behind the ear and came out the bottom of the foot! Dug for an hour and never found the slug. I'm a believer.

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armalite53 posted this 16 June 2014

My 1st 45-70 was a #3. The first bullet I cast was a Lyman 457193 for that rifle. I was so impressed that when I found a trapdoor at a flea market I had to have it. Alas, both rifles were long ago sacrificed to the AR-15 accuracy gods. I'm back to casting for 45-70 again for a Pedersoli Sharps & a H&R single that rides in the Jeep. Incidentally,  my favorite bullet is the 457132 powered by 23-25 grains of 5744. Yes, it kicks and Lyman quality has been a little spotty of late, but it works in my guns. I've even paper patched it and shot it in my Martini-Henry!

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tlkeizer posted this 16 June 2014

Greetings, Alas, Giorgio, I too use a lot of elbow grease for the cases.  To clean the barrel I run a couple patches wet with Hoppe's through at the range followed by a couple dry patches to remove most of the residue.  (I use a spit wad and two dry patches between shots so that helps too.) Then, when I finally get home, it is more Hoppe's and dry patches until the bore is clean, using a lot of recycled t-shirts.  For the cases it is put them in a small bucket with some hot water and Dawn dish detergent, swish them around a bit, then pull them out one-by one and use an old .45 caliber brass bore brush to clean the insides, flushing with hot water.  If the outside is extremely dirty I will use the bore brush on the outside too.  After the cases are dry I have put them in a vibrator with corncob media, but my friends case cleaner bit the big one.  So, until summer fishing and skeet shooting are done, a new vibrator of my own will have to wait.  If you get to Alaska give me a shout and we will go lube our elbows with either diet coke or local ale and see if we can solve the world case cleaning woes.  In the meantime, I will still use Sally's Dawn dish detergent I guess.  I have seen lots of other methods, but this works for me so I stay with it. TK

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