What Not to do to Improve Your Cast Bullet Accuracy

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  • Last Post 28 March 2014
giorgio de galleani posted this 22 March 2014

An enthusiast appreciation of  John Alexander 's article on the  N° 228  FS.

When my groups are at 2 moa at 100 meters I am satisfied.

With rifles I mostly shoot  metal gongs at 60 yards from offhand ,standing on my hind legs. I prefer sporter weight rifles not more muzzle heavy than an SMLE or an M14.

I seldom shoot from bench rest, just to zero my scoped deer rifle ( RugerN°1 375H&H) or The  38-55 Little Sharps By Chiappa I use in the so called European CAS long range event.

You US shooters are allowed to laugh when we non British europeans call 100 meters “long range".

Lever action carbines are preferred.

Handgun accuracy  sufficient to hit Steel Challenge plates and Cowboy Action Shooting silhouettes is OK for me.

I use mostly aluminum gang molds ,and load everything on progressive presses ,a LEE pro 1000 and two Dillons ,550 and 650.

The slowest machine I use is a Lee Classic Turret Press.

I have been born in 1947 ,I'm not rich  but I can afford the tools that make me waste no time.  The time our Lord gives to us is a precious gift and I believe we  must not waist it in improductive works and labour.

The goal is to enjoy shooting in the great outdoors.

The name of the sport is cast bullets shooting , not casting bullets and loading jewels in conditioned cases.

 

I am anxiously waiting for John's heretical findings on the next foulig Shot issues.

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JSH posted this 22 March 2014

To eachs own I suppose. However I will take quality over quantity. I could get along fine with most guns shooting 2"@100.
As to shooting positions. I am invloved in a few matches of different types and they allow a variety of positions among them. I got involved with cast actually for shooting milsurps. I dearly love playing with several of these old war horses. One can do all sorts of case and ammo prep bottom line is you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear. However you can clean them up and take a lot of the stink off of them. I have my a couple of them that shoot way better than I ever dreamed. I will throw in something my grandpa used to say “the hurrier I go the more behinder I get". I was around my mid 30's before I truely understood that. Jeff

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Ed Harris posted this 22 March 2014

I am much of the same school as Giorgio, except that I am blessed with a nearby 200-yard range. We shoot rifles offhand at the 12” gong. We shoot handguns at the same 12” gong at 100 yards, and hit it often enough with the best loads that work, it is great fun.

A Colt Speed Plate on a mouse-trap type auto-resetting stand is at 50 yards, and we have mild 3/8” thick steel 4” diameter handgun spinners at 50 feet and 25 yards, and a dwelling tree at 10 yards for the snubbies and pocket auto pistols.

I use a single-station press for my rifle ammo and a Dillon RL550B or Star Universal to load .38 Specials and .45 ACP by the bucketful.

The most used powder is Bullseye, even in the milsurp rifles. While I have a good supply of gaschecks, their replacement cost is prohibitive, and I don't need a heavy rifle load to ring the gong. The gallery .30-'06 loads at about 1300 fps with 8 grains of Bullseye shoot well enough out to 200 yards.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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delmarskid1 posted this 23 March 2014

I operate much the same as far as my accuracy standards. I will experiment to see if I can find “the magic combination” that will set the world on it's ear and earn me unending fame. I'm very fortunate to have a loading room that looks out over a crop field that is 200 yards long. I can load a round and fire it out of the window and my wife thinks it is just so cute. I had a Dillon 550 and made buckets of '06 ammunition with it. I am of the opinion that the best way to get good accuracy with cast bullets is to get a lot of good practice. I've tried the meticulous tweeking and sorting. It didn't help me much.

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John Alexander posted this 23 March 2014

I agree completely with Giorgio and Ed that 2moa is all the accuracy you need to have fun and also for almost any kind of hunting you should do with cast bullets.  A hard core, shoot em in the head, squirrel hunter may be the exception. It is also better accuracy than 90% of hunters can achieve from most useful field positions as I stated in the article.

I also agree with JSH's remark “To each his own.”  Some like to hunt or shoot at soup cans, others are only happy when shooting half inch groups.  CBA members should, and generally do, respect those that enjoy any type of cast bullet shooting.

Delmarkskid1 is also dead on when he writes ” the best way  to get good accuracy with cast bullets is to get a lot of good practice."

However, the point of my article wasn't that you should or shouldn't be satisfied with 2moa accuracy with cast bullets.  The point was that if interested you can shoot at least 1moa and win matches (at least in the factory or military CBA classes) without weighting bullets or powder or doing some of the other procedures that most of us do in our reloading.  We often make CB shooting sound complicated enough to turn off many potential new shooters.  We should be telling them that you can turn out good cast bullet ammo by the bucketful and have a lot of fun shooting it --  as well as use it to impress the jacketed shooters down at the club.    And if you want to compete you can still win your share without a lot of labor on minute details making casting and reloading a tiresome chore.

John 

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RicinYakima posted this 24 March 2014

"However, the point of my article wasn't that you should or shouldn't be satisfied with 2moa accuracy with cast bullets.  The point was that if interested you can shoot at least 1moa and win matches (at least in the factory or military CBA classes) without weighting bullets or powder or doing some of the other procedures that most of us do in our reloading." John, that is our disagreement! In 5 loads, I can get any military surplus rifle to shoot 1.75 MOA. (If you can see the sights that well!) But you need to shoot 1.5 MOA to win 120 shot matches! To do that you have to shoot 500 PRACTICE rounds a year!! Plus do the little things that add up hundredths of a MOA. There are too many of us shooting thousands of rounds of year in practice and testing military rifles to make it easy to win matches.   If you will be happy shooting deer and plinking, hitting 12 inch plates at 300 yards with cast bullets, fine. It is easy to do.  But you aren't going to win any matches till you pay your dues.   That is off my chest! Ric

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R. Dupraz posted this 24 March 2014

"But you need to shoot 1.5 MOA to win 120 shot matches! To do that you have to shoot 500 PRACTICE rounds a year!! Plus do the little things that add up hundredths of a MOA. There are too many of us shooting thousands of rounds of year in practice and testing military rifles to make it easy to win matches.”      "If you will be happy shooting deer and plinking, hitting 12 inch plates at 300 yards with cast bullets, fine. It is easy to do.  But you aren't going to win any matches till you pay your dues.”     Yup!  

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Coydog posted this 24 March 2014

For me i am not into any matches.Or out to win, but the game I shoot.Some are in it for matches and that is them but there is others that are not.and if you are just want to hit a 12” plates, that is up to the one that like to do just that.I want a closer group then that when i am hunting because most of the time you only have that one shot and that one shot only when you are hunting and make it count.But to each there own and what will work for that one person.

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John Alexander posted this 24 March 2014

Ric, I am sorry that I have such a poor job in making my arguments clear.  Please let me try to clarify.

I certainly never said that it was easy to win CBA matches.  I have come in in the middle of the pack or worse my share of  times. CBA competition is tough because so many good shooters are working hard at it.  I completely agree with you on that point.

I also have never said that you can win matches without practice.  I fire far more than 500 rounds per year in practice and believe that is where most shooters should concentrate and spend their time and effort so I agree completely with you on that point as well.

My views and writing have never been to urge shooters to be happy with plinking accuracy. (I don't understand how so many people reach that conclusion when I never say it.) That is a personal decision about how the individual chooses to enjoy cast bullet shooting.  I respect those who are satisfied with hunting or soup can accuracy.  I also respect those who strive for all the accuracy they can squeeze out of their equipment.  I obviously belong to the second group but that doesn't make me superior to plinkers -- it's just what i like to do. I have been known to shoot at a soup can and I enjoy reading articles written by both plinkers and competitions shooters in the Fouling Shot.  We need both kinds of members and both kinds of articles to keep the CBA strong.

Where we seem to disagree is about what details of casting and reloading are necessary to shoot well and win some matches.  In good conditions I can usually shoot slightly under 1MOA for the AVERAGE of five shot groups with a six pound unmodified rifle.  Over the years I have won my share of postal matches and have had some luck in shoulder to shoulder competition as well.  A long time ago I stopped weighing bullets and powder (except for some that won't meter) cleaning primer pockets and inside case necks, and checking concentricity.  I have also stopped rejecting match bullets because of small wrinkles or less than sharp edges.  I stopped doing these things after testing to satisfying myself that they didn't add even the hundredths of an MOA that you sometimes need to win a match.

I know it is hard to let go of procedures that we have read or been told are important and some of us enjoy tending to details.  I have no problem with that but I don't enjoy it so don't do it.  I also don't think we should tell beginners that they have to do all kinds of details to be successful.  I believe I have paid my dues by testing to prove to myself that some things are a waste of time and trying to share that information with others. Adopting my radical approach is optional. Regards, John

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RicinYakima posted this 24 March 2014

 "I stopped doing these things after testing to satisfying myself that they didn't add even the hundredths of an MOA that you sometimes need to win a match."   OK, now I understand John. Your testing leads you to believe those things didn't help so you stopped. I respect your decision to act upon your beliefs.   Please understand that I said what I have to do to win matches. None of that is required to shoot and have fun! I shoot range pick-up brass in 7.62 X 39 with as cast Lyman 311440, unsized and un-gaschecked and dipped in Lee Liquid Alox. With 4.0 grains of WW231 it hits most rocks out to as far as I used to hit a baseball, from my 1903 Springfield conversion. Don't think I ever shot a piece of paper after I sighted it in.

My concern is that I don't want any new cast bullet shooter to think he can make ammo with cast bullets that will shoot as well as jacketed bullets without realizing there are different techniques required.  Not hard to do, no mysteries, just more attention to the details when assembling the ammo.   I hope I have explained what I was trying to say, and will leave this discussion now. Thanks,  Ric

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delmarskid1 posted this 24 March 2014

It is refreshing to see people disagree in an agreeable fashion. I have shot lots and lots of 2” groups looking for the 1” group. What burns me and keeps me going at the same time is the 1” group in the MIDDLE of the 2” group.

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 24 March 2014

Plinking accuracy is OK with a Mac 11 9mm. Precision MOA accuracy is OK when shooting at the 25 ring.

Both are fun.

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John Alexander posted this 24 March 2014

Ric, You explained clearly.  I hope I didn't sound defensive but I know I am challenging the way most folks do business and I wanted to be clear what I was trying to say. This forum would be deadly dull if we all agreed with each other -- nor would we learn much. John

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JeffinNZ posted this 25 March 2014

I really liked John's article because I am not a competitive shooter in the cast bullet realm. There is just no interest down here (are not enough locally) and my shooting is primarily around developing loads for hunting and to satisfy my curiosity. I believe if we are to encourage others to follow us into Pb chucking the idea of “these are the basics to follow to achieve good field accuracy” is a great concept. They the next step is “now that you have achieved good field accuracy the next steps to be competitive on the range are X, Y and Z".

I'd love to build and shoot a dedicated cast bullet rifle that could compete on a level footing with you guys but other than to please myself there is no point cos it would never see a match.

Cheers from New Zealand

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badgeredd posted this 26 March 2014

JeffinNZ wrote: I really liked John's article because I am not a competitive shooter in the cast bullet realm. There is just no interest down here (are not enough locally) and my shooting is primarily around developing loads for hunting and to satisfy my curiosity. I believe if we are to encourage others to follow us into Pb chucking the idea of “these are the basics to follow to achieve good field accuracy” is a great concept. They the next step is “now that you have achieved good field accuracy the next steps to be competitive on the range are X, Y and Z".

I'd love to build and shoot a dedicated cast bullet rifle that could compete on a level footing with you guys but other than to please myself there is no point cos it would never see a match. Jeff,

I am in complete agreement with your thinking.

John,

My first thought as I read your article was “Finally, someone has said what I feel regularly.” As far as competition goes, I love to watch more talented shooters rack up those itty bitty groups. I hate to do it myself. I have learned a boatload of procedures to improve my accuracy in general from fellows that thrive on target shooting for score or groups, but MY goal is to beat my own groups. It makes sense that a guy is wasting his time (generally) trying to make a 2 MOA jacketed gun shoot sub 1 MOA groups with cast. I'm not saying that 1 MOA groups cannot be shot with cast, but the gun has to be capable of such accuracy before a fellow can do it, period.

Thanks for a great article and I hope that guys will read the entire article and understand your points.

Edd

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Brodie posted this 26 March 2014

I agree wholeheartedly with what Jeff and Badgerred said.  The greatest possible accuracy is a fine goal for some, as for the rest of us; Will the cast bullet eilte please stop looking down their noses and deriding us just because we don't do EXACTLY what you do. Brodie

B.E.Brickey

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badgeredd posted this 26 March 2014

I just finished a rifle that probably won't prove to be extremely accurate, but it is a lot of fun, especially since 22 LR ammo is in short supply and prohibitively expensive (in my mind). The rifle I just got together is a Stevens Favorite chambered in 32 S&W (short) and I am having a ball shooting it at a soda can at about 50 yards. When it gets warmer, I'll put it on paper out of curiosity more than anything else. I won't spend a lot of time trying to get it to shoot really small groups because it is just plain fun to shoot. I shoot cast because it is fun primarily, while it affords me an opportunity to shoot more as the cost is less with cast bullets. For those of us that just want to have fun with our firearms, keeping it simple adds to the enjoyment.

Edd

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giorgio de galleani posted this 27 March 2014

I agree too with JeffinNZ and the other members who like shooting for fun,and want decent accuracy without getting mad at the reloading bench.

Years ago I read an article about  bench rest shooting ( with jacketed bullets) ,it said that you spent 10% of your money to get  90% of your accuracy and 90% of your money to get the last 10% of the accuracy potential of your rifles.

Anyone can put his goals at the level they like, just knowing what procedures are not producing an accuracy increase from the point of vieuw of an expert  precision bench rest shooter , is very interesting an propedeutical to a merry plinker and blaster like me.

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PETE posted this 27 March 2014

No disrespect to anyone but I seem to be on the other side of the fence from most of you. I don't especially like working a gun up to it's full potentia but at the games I like to play I need to shoot at least 1/2 MOA at any range I'm shooting at. Then I'm happy with the gun. 

THEN comes the real challenge. Getting a gun to shoot those small groups at a match. Working the gun to that level is boring to me. It's getting it to shoot at that level whenever I want it to under any conditions. Lots of hair pulling but when that perfect score shows up the satisfaction is almost overwhelming.

Pete

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John Alexander posted this 27 March 2014 

          JSH said it back in post #2 of this thread -- “To each his own.” That seems to be what the above conversation is saying.  Good discussion, even strong arguments, done respectfully are what make a forum worthwhile.

   There seems to be a natural human tendency to be a little scornful of the other guy's game. Four position shooters “know” that benchrest shooting is easy. Most on this forum have done a good job of resisting that tendency and have acted respectful to the other guy's interests and opinions. When that doesn't happen things get toxic pretty fast.    As I have said before, the CBA as well as this forum needs all types of cast bullet shooters to have a strong organization.    I hang out a fair amount with competitive shooters and can vouch that very few have an elitist attitude toward hunters and soup can shooters.  Maybe because most of them also either hunt or shoot soup cans themselves.  If there are a few with this tendency it is invariably the weaker shooters. People who are good at something are confident and don't have to put anybody else down.    This danger isn't a one-way street. Some people are a bit scornful of paper shooters. The CBA gets accused of being an elitist organization for competitive shooters in spite of the fact that most of our members and most of the articles in the Fouling aren't about competitive shooting.    Tolerance as displayed in this thread is always a good thing.    Sorry to get a little preachy.  John              

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PETE posted this 27 March 2014

John, et al,

And I hope I didn't come across as being against those who just want to shoot at tin cans, deer,, or whatever. Used to do the same until I lost the desire to go out and kill something. 60 some years ago I started out shooting at cans till it got boring. Graduated to shooting at particular spots on those cans till that got boring. Graduated from there to shooting targets, bench and offhand at various ranges out to 600 yds. Someday before I check out I'd like to try 1000 yds. with my 50/90 SS. Been out to 500 with it and what a hoot.

The challenge of pushing myself beyond what i've done before is what keeps me going some days. And that's the secret. Do what gets you excited and looking forward to going out the next time.

Just bought an old S&W .32 Regulation Police revolver(made 1917) last Saturday and can't wait to see what it can do. 

Pete

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