Anybody significantly load DOWN the 357 maximum??

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  • Last Post 08 February 2014
corerf posted this 24 January 2014

I believe several years ago I made it very clear that I like the 357 maximum about as much as I like coffee, water, food and air. Those are the bare necessities to keep my body alive, in that order. 357 Maximum is just below air in importance. I always shoot the RCBS 35-200FN, BHN is 18-20, checked, Lars White Label, unsized with more 4227 than a human should burn in a single cartridge smaller than 500 Nitro Express. I just got (99% certain) an untampered, all matching BSA 310, chambered to 32-30 in 90% + condition, all regards. I believe in a month or two, it WILL have the barrel bulled, sent to Jesse Ocumpaugh for reboring to 35 cal. I will then chamber it for 357 maximum and it will then shoot with “hopefully” unparalleled accuracy!

I need confirmation from a shooter or two that they have successfully loaded DOWN the maximum to light mag or even hot 38 special status!!

The maximum is not a very good rabbit harvesting round, it tends to relocate the animals to parts unknown in a very fine display of blood splatter.  Ive never had need to shoot a rabbit I was going to eat with the max. Id rather use a DW revolver with a 38 special (seldom done due to carbon buildup) or more typically, a 357 loaded way back and 158 gr swc., a pinch of stuff like green dot or clays, etc. That load will knocjk em down, roll them over and maybe a few feet, makes a small hole twice, they die. Meat saved. Thats good stuff!! The maximum chamber I will cut, well I dont want to ever foul the thing with carbon. And I could see that with a new rifle like this, I may be apt to put several hundred rounds down its throat in a day and Id like to cut back on a 357 max taking it to light 357 magnum 1100 fps (revolver barrel length speed reference!!) power. Thats an awful big case to put just a pinch of powder in, like universal clays at 6 grains, etc. Im ok with ANY powder, herco, blue dot, 2400, anything bulky. Id rather not speed up to the point Im at unique though. Id rather have a bit more powder to look at in the case during inspection. Any thought?? I know and have ready Jeffs work on his rook rifle. Never shot or loaded for 32-20, dont really believe the cartridge will give me the flexibility of rabbits, then bigger game if I ever desired. Operational range is needing to be out to 150 yards +. There is my second caveat. I believe the only thing that keeps the BSA from being a deer rifle is the cartridge it has stepped up to. I really dont want to encounter issues with .320 bores with .312 case mouths, heeled bullets, brass fireforming, etc. So I have carefully thought about the barrel work and have settled on 35 cal. if the max cant boil down to lighter loads proper, then Ill ream it to 357 magnum only. Im shorting myself a huge increase in power with zero pressure increase (darn near free horsepower) but if it really is ALL or NOTHING with the max, then that will need to be done. CYA and thanks in advance Mike

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 24 January 2014

sounds like a great project.

you might put a lot of thought into the chamber job, if accuracy is a top priority.

i would assemble a load you prefer then have a match type chamber cut to fit. special attention that the throat is tight, and not too long.

consider that standard 357 max reamers are for pistol chambers ... you dont want a 2 inch long throat.

go for it !!

ken

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RicinYakima posted this 24 January 2014

Mike,

You may wish to check your Martini, as mine will just barely load a .357 Magnum case with the RCBS 200 grain, and that is with polishing the top of the block. I think the 357 MAX would be too long to make the turn into the chamber.

The .357 case will shoot the 200 grain bullet 1500 f/s from a 24 inch barrel, but 99% of the time I use the Ohaus 158 PB SWC with 4.5 grains of WW231 for 1000 f/s and more accurate than I can hold.

Stocking my Martini about 10 years ago.

FWIW, Ric

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rjmeyer314 posted this 24 January 2014

I have two 357 Maximums, a Ruger SRM 7 1/2 inch, and a Dan Wesson 8” SuperMag. I have shot a lot of 38 Specials (2.7 gr Bullseye + 148gr HBWC) through both, as well as 357 Magnum(15gr. 2400+ 158 gr Lee gas check SWC), as well as Maximum loads through both of them. I haven't noticed any problems chambering the Maximums even after shooting hundreds of rounds of the 38's.

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corerf posted this 24 January 2014

Ric. its the depth of the loading groove in the block that limits, correct?

Thats is really, really good first hand experience. Ill have to research how the 32 special conversions were completed. The blocks may have been opened up on a mill to allow the longer cartridge. Lots of chatter exists regarding longer cartridges but they are all much smaller at case mouth. Like 25 cal. Skinny necks. That may be how things are squeezing by.

Thanks Ric. And the accuracy feedback provided is building confidence in project.

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RicinYakima posted this 24 January 2014

Mike,

That is correct in that it is the relationship of the diameter at the rear of the chamber, the diameter of the bullet and the length to the rim and rim diameter. A 32 Winchester Special with a properly sized chamber will just barely go in and then only if you don't load it longer than factory.

You can not just cut away the top of the block. The block is not very thick over the hole for the firing pin and sear train at the rear. I polished the groove in the block to ease 357 Magnum cases, but with the 200 grain bullet, I still have to hold the extractor lever down with my finger to lower it enough to make the bend into the chamber.

Some alternatives are the 30/357 Max wildcat, 32 Miller short or 41 Magnum (the largest diameter case that you can safely chamber)as even the 30 Herrett is too long to fit.

Sorry I don't have better news for you.

Ric

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Goatwhiskers posted this 25 January 2014

I shoot Max in mine with no problem, don't mind holding the lever down to do so. The only problem that arises is bullet contour. The RD359170 is a fat little sucker and must be seated slightly deeper than I'd like to slide in. In contrast the RD359190 has a longer slimmer nose and can be seated out to almost touch the lands consequently giving a little more powder room. Not a good idea to alter the block. GW

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corerf posted this 26 January 2014

Well I picked up the BSA last night. Ill be dipped if the bore isnt just absolutely perfect. Im stuck trying the 32-20 brass and a heeled bullet! Id be stupid not too. The 32-20 can crank up (with apparent shorter lifespan) pretty good (accuracy unknown) so...

Ill buy some Buffalo Arms RCBS 310-120 bullets for a test and I should have 100 pieces of 32-20 brass in route if I am lucky on a bid. Ill fake it with odds and ends of dies to get them loaded for fireforming. Not spending money on dies yet.

Great little rifle. Light, fast.... pretty slick.

Ric, I was contemplating an 8mm-357 max combo as a last resort. I need a custom reamer and that means find correct dies first, then order reamer, or get stuck with two reamers bills.

6 one way- half dozen the other. Drop a wad of dough on rebore and a single reamer (no die cost) or drop a wad on two reamers and special dies.

Ill see what I can do with these RCBS test bullets.

Anybody else have any sample castings they wouldn't mind selling 50 of from an NOE or CBE mold in the 120-130 grain range with a heel and 323 diameter nose (and a lube groove soemwhere)??? Id pay a reasonable fee for them cast in a softer alloy, ww or softer.

Seems as though I may have to chronicle this project. Its been written on before, but why not try again.

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corerf posted this 26 January 2014

Update: Did a chamber cast. From the cast my groove is around 320. Cant measure accurately so SWAG method will have to do for now. It is most def a 32-20, concerned about rim thickness although past owner said no issues with chambering easily factory 32-20. But that is a 20 year old report. Throat is a solid .323.

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Ed Harris posted this 26 January 2014

Common .357 mag brass drags against the breechblock of my rebored cadet Martini and needs assistance with a screwdriver blade to drag it out. Any. 38 Special bras ejects cleanly from the gun with a finger flick of the lever.

I use the Ranch Dog. 359-190 which I had Erik at www.hollowpointmold.com bore out the GC heel to give a .360” base band, and I load this with 4.5 grs. of Bullseye, crimped in the normal crimp groove at 1.60” overall length, for use in my Cadet Martini, Marlin 1894C, Ruger Blackhawk, Police Service Six, etc. About 1080 fps in rifle and 840 in revolver. Will penetrate a deer through and through from any angle. 12” gong capable from handgun at 100 yards.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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corerf posted this 26 January 2014

Ric you mentioned the 32 Miller Short. Its a bench rest breech loaded round. I have searched long and hard for ANYONE referencing fixed ammo, there just isnt any. If I could get the neck lengthened that might work well.

It seems that the reamer below is cut specific to breech seating. Neck ID is way too small for any proper fit bullet. So I'd have to ask for a special neck and throat plus the neck is SOOOO short (not even .1 inch) there is insufficient neck to seat a bullet.

Does anyone have any experience or see any reason why fixed ammo and some load workup is a problem?? I'd have to have Mr Kiff modify the reamer for a true

reamer print link

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/e604u9mr4bd6c3m/643oGQu0Pl/32%20Miller%20Short.pdf

Ric, I believe that the bullet OD reduction from your 35 cal/200gr RCBS on a mag case to 32 cal/200 gr~ might allow the longer max case (or a slightly shortened one) to make the turn.

I would not be opposed to cutting and threading an old mauser barrel as a guinea pig with no extractor rocker installed and verify the turn radius. I could use a .370 reamer fed in 1.2 past the breech to simulate the case body. Then mock up a cartridge and see if it make the turn.

I have found one reference to the 32 Miller Short used in breech seat mode on a Cadet. But I'd really not like to have a concern about the barrel ringing on the old barrel, trying to hunt with breech seating, etc. I have enough thumbs as it is. Doing so may show I have a total of TEN thumbs.

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RicinYakima posted this 26 January 2014

You are correct, that would be a not really practical conversion. For a 200 grain bullet have you considered just rechambering it to 32/40? Several moulds for 32 Win Special in that weight range, and only 0.005” over nominal 32/40 bore size.

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corerf posted this 08 February 2014

Alright Ric- In reality (considering MONEY, TIME, Simplicity...)

32-40 is the single best option. Period.

I have received my very expensive Buffalo Arms RCBS Cadet bullets (100) and a bag of 32-30 Starline brass. and a single box of 32-20 cowboy ammo.

I will handload some of this brass and give it a shot. I dont expect much from factory ammo. but it will provide a baseline.

If it will be as accurate as I need, it stays. If not, then I will rent a 32-40 reamer and HS gauges, and kill the rifle.

I may have some 32-20 brass, 32 ACP dies for sale here in the next month.

Ric thanks for stating the obvious a couple of times. I came to the same conclusion. ANY other option is very expensive. Some options are just better than a year out to complete due to production times. The 32-40 drives a 200 gr bullet 1200-1500 ft per second. Thats a fine velocity for a soft cast bullet and I have a window to work in that is VERY WIDE. Load WAY down, load WAY up (relatively). I understand its an accurate round and it is perfect for a single shot rifle. And Im not loading DOWN a 357 max to achieve the goal. I do have to invest in more dad gummed dies though. Sheesh.

Thats why I asked here, the questions!

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