accuracy simplified

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  • Last Post 25 February 2014
Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 21 January 2014

ricinyakima sez:  For the commercial rifles, what is working for jacketed bullets is not working well for cast (soft) bullets. I certainly don't have the money to pursue any radical changes in design, but that is where the next step is going to have to come from, something radical. 500 grain bullets in .40 caliber barrels with gain twists firing less than 1000 f/s would be the first thing I would try.


gaining a clear picture of what it takes to attain accuracy with cast bullets is similar to trying to focus on the ” northern lights ” ..

and yet ... WOW THERE IT IS !!   a solid globe of brilliant well defined outline !!  it looks like .. oh no !   we have been waiting for years ... and now we see ... oh no !   it's a lowly .... 22 plinker cartridge !


have i ever mentioned that once just for fun i fired over 25 rounds of winchester wildcats into a 0.45 inch group at 50 yards ... rapid fire without aiming ?    2 cent plinkers .  Dis-dang-gusting ..


how come we can't duplicate this in a centerfire with cast bullets ?     i keep thinking maybe somthing like a .xxx Super Rook   ...1000 fps,  4 caliber bullet .. , 16 twist ..

oh yeah, john a :  on of our top ara shooters, fred jamison, had about 70,000 rounds thru his W52 without cleaning.  hmmm .


i hope to put together a 6mm Super Rook this summer.  what could go wrong ??

ken

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Ed Harris posted this 21 January 2014

I'm looking for miniaturized satellite guided smart munitions which can be inserted into the base cavity of a .58 Minie' Ball, which could be fired without smoke or muzzle flash, by using a pressurized acetylene tank in the butt, fired off with a glowplug instead if the nipple, with fitted suppressor and UV laser designator. I understand that the space aliens were helping the Confederates build these, but the War ended before they could take delivery from the Mother Ship. They have been stored secretly in a railroad tunnel near Harper's Ferry sincd then. Onlt tbe Moth Man knows where they are. It must be true, I heard it on Geirge Noory's radio shiw......

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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John Alexander posted this 22 January 2014

Ken, You have brought up the 22LR before and I have been thinking about it every since.  Out of the right rifle, the 22LR is pretty darned impressive.  What is it that makes it work so well?  What is going on there that can we use?

Some of the plain base shooters are shooting a big rook rifle with soft bullets but instead of short bullets they have gone to very long.  Instead of subsonic for better wind resistance they have gravitated to about 1,400 fps. -- why?

I started in CBA competition in the 1970s shooting 225415 bullets.  Although I didn't try soft bullets or subsonic loads I did get good accuracy for the time (1.5 moa). However, I will testify that shooting a bullet with a BC of .1 at 1,600 fps where wind deflection is maximum is a challenge.   Your 6mm super rook sounds like a great project.  I have a take off barrel from a 6 PPC Panda that is supposed to have less than 1,000 rounds through it that I would be glad to donate to the project.   I think it is a Krieger but whatever it is it came from a good JB benchrest shooter so it is match grade.  The slow twist should be good for a short bullet but if you gave up and went to a long one it wouldn't work. John

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 22 January 2014

ED:: you got any statistics to verify that gas gun ? i like the idea of glow plug ignition ...

JOHN: i gots lots of match barrels, so thanks anyway. oh, there is a rumor that 1400 fps gets more wind deflection than 1000 fps. gotta go to 2100 fps before breaking even ...

i never rode a bullet to find out ( g ) .

ken

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mckg posted this 22 January 2014

You got it all wrong all these years working on barrels and ammo; what we need is better sights...

The US military is currently testing a radical $17,000 Linux-Powered 'smart rifle' that can automatically aim ... The system includes a Linux-powered computer in the scope

Don't worry, at some point Microsoft is going to snatch the market, and the darn thing will stop working on sunny/snowy/cold/rainy/younameit days...

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John Alexander posted this 22 January 2014

Ken Campbell Iowa wrote: JOHN: i gots lots of match barrels, so thanks anyway. oh, there is a rumor that 1400 fps gets more wind deflection than 1000 fps. gotta go to 2100 fps before breaking even ...

i never rode a bullet to find out ( g ) .

ken

The exact numbers vary from report to report but I think you are right with the worst velocity being about 1,600 fps (exactly where a lot of cast bullets seem to shoot their best.) Wind deflection is supposed to diminish with either slower or faster MVs.  But I have never rode a bullet either.

That's why I mentioned plain base shooters gravitating to 1,400 it has always seemed strange to me but I keep forgetting to ask the question when I am around them.  It seems they have the perfect platform to test short bullets but then short blunt bullets even subsonic short bullets may not be as good as long pointy bullets as a less favorable muzzle velocity.  I obviously think long pointy bullets as low velocities is a more promising way to go since that's what I shoot. John

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joeb33050 posted this 23 January 2014

It looks like wind drift is a local minimum at ~900 fps, rises to maximum ~1400 fps and gets back to the 900 fps drift at ~ 2300 fps. See the attached.

joeb33050 posted this 23 January 2014

The problem with low velocities and wind drift.My chronograph suggested to me that variation in velocity is less than velocity. Variation in velocity on my chronograph is standard deviation and extreme spread. It seems that ex. s.d. at 1200 fps is the same kinda number as at 1800 fps. This is an impression only. Let's say that velocity varies +/- 10 fps 95 of the time at 900, 1400 and 1900 fps; b.c. = .3.That 10 fps variation varies bullet drop at 900 fps by 1", at 1400 fps by .7” and at 1900 fps by .1"+ a smidgn. This from the Hornady ballistics calculator on line. So, reducing velocity below 1400 fps reduces wind drift and increases bullet drop and group size; and increasing velocity above 1400 fos reduces wind drift and reduces bullet drop and group size slightly. Then there's the fact? that slower velocity causes more barrel lift, so velocity variation is sorta self canceling. I have never been able to reduce velocity way below 1400 fps and get good groups; but that's with big cases like 308 Win. I've read several articles about reducing velocity to reduce wind drift, but never with a happy ending.Maybe tiny cases like whisper might reduce velocity variation, group size and wind drift.

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John Alexander posted this 23 January 2014

Joe, I'm afraid your analysis is probably right otherwise I can't believe plain base shooters would have gone to near the velocity for max wind deflection. Some shoot cases smaller than the blackout so they have the most promising setup for very low velocity attempts.  

Subsonic is tempting but probably has been explored before and is a dead end. Too bad it would be a good excuse for another rifle.  Of course, being pig headed,  I will continue to try it in the rifles I have but have had no luck so far.

You may want to edit your post to make it clearer.  I think you have a word missing in the first sentence and a typo where you say that higher velocity increases bullet drop. John

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frnkeore posted this 23 January 2014

Subsonic has not been experimented with but a very few times by anyone in the ASSRA or the ISSA even with the Miller short cartridge and the faster twist that are used today.

Only about two ot four people, including myself have played seriously with subsonic loads. I did it back in the 90's when I was still shooting CBA matches. I did it with a 45/70, 20 twist but would stabilize 430 gr spitzer for 100 yards but, it feel apart at 200. I got .8 groups at 100, that would have given me a 10X on the 100 yards CBA target but, I got 3” groups at 200.

I've talked to only two others that I can remember that have played with it and they didn't persue it.

There may be others but, when I bring it up, no one chimes in when any results.

The ONLY problem with subsonic is extreme velocity spreads, you've got to be 5 fps or less, any more that that will give you verticle stringing that will show up more as yardage increases.

32 Miller, 14 - 11.5 twist as well as Black Outs with a 10 twist would be good test beads. I though I would have a opertunity this last year with my 33 Elco Max, the barrel was marked 10 twist but, after installing and shooting it, I found that it is a 15 twist :( I'm building a 12 twist 32/20 for my wife and will try that, too.

It is a worth wild area to explore.

Frank

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Longone posted this 25 January 2014

 

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HuskerP7M8 posted this 11 February 2014

I don't know how much interest there is in the following, but I thought I'd offer it. Because I'm lazy and busy, I copied and pasted it from another forum where I posted it some time ago. Parts of it will sound a little out of context without the other 4 pages of posts. 

The science of ballistics is so complex that I can assure you any explanation I offer will be questioned. The major problem, because of this complexity, is that no answers are adequate without using higher forms of mathematics and then 99% of the participants in a discussion of this type cross their eyes and lapse into a coma. The other danger is that if you “dumb it down” to where it “might” be understandable, there will always be someone with just enough knowledge to be dangerous, and the discussion becomes ego based. Maybe the biggest problem is I understand all of this pretty well but often do a poor job of communicating it to others.

I know this first hand because I've been involved in this subject matter more times that I can count on internet forums and I can almost guarantee there will be confusion/disagreement with very few happy endings. LOL

Anyway, because I'm aware of how this usually turns out, I doubt if I'll have the time or fortitude to continue my participation after this initial post. If you disagree or don't understand my comments here, I suggest you Google terms like “ballistic wind drift", “ballistic drag coefficients", “ballistic drag slopes", “transonic wind drift", etc. I'll also caution you to find credible links to any reference material you find and it would be best to avoid any links to internet forums because it's nearly impossible to separate the wheat from the chaff where forums are concerned.

I'm going to address a few of the points made during this thread and comment on them:

First, a couple of analogies have been made concerning air craft or boats and how they drift in a fluid medium. I'm afraid these analogies, intuitive as they may be, aren't very useful because they are not gyroscopically spin stabilized projectiles. There is never a wind component acting on the side of a spinning projectile because all gyroscopically spin stabilized projectiles “weathervane” into that wind component almost instantly and air flow is always into the longitudinal geometric axis of the projectile.

While aircraft and boats do in fact need to “weathervane” into the air or current to negate drift, the science behind it isn't appropriate for spin stabilized projectiles. Sorry, but that's the best I can do without typing another 1,000 words.

Second, and most importantly, it appears that no one recognizes one of the primary tenets of projectile wind drift. The higher the drag coefficient, or drag if you prefer, the greater the wind drift. This is why “lag time” differences in a vacuum vs atmosphere have a direct correlation to wind drift calculations.

Why is this so important? It's because we're dealing with the transonic range of velocities and the aerodynamic properties of flight with spin stabilized projectiles in this regime are almost the total opposite of supersonic velocities.

If you look at the following image (where I've added some descriptive labels that show the approximate zones and Mach numbers we're concerned with) of the data producing a drag slope from Doppler Radar testing at Lapua's facility you'll see that in the supersonic range, drag coefficients increase with lower velocities while the opposite happens in the transonic range of rimfire velocities.

In other words, transonic projectiles have less drag at lower velocities and thus less wind drift. Supersonic projectiles have less drag with higher velocities and thus less wind drift.

I'm hoping this explanation, simple as it is, will be adequate.

 

http://s239.photobucket.com/user/HuskerP7M8/media%20Posts/Transonic%20Wind%20Drift/Slopea_zps901b1ed2.jpg.html> 

Let me also show you some of my own data of only the transonic portion of a drag slope just in case some of you don't believe round nose lead bullets behave the same as streamlined jacketed centerfire projectiles. This data was gathered in my tunnel using two highly modified chronographs  with 64 Mhz clock speeds and 10 ft screen spacings at a 45 yd distance. You'll notice this portion of a drag slope is almost identical to the Doppler Radar testing from Lapua.

In case you're wondering what the red data points are indicative of, they're 4 bullets with an offset Cg that never stabilized during flight to the target and had much greater drag which produced higher numbers for velocity lost.

 

 http://s239.photobucket.com/user/HuskerP7M8/media%20Posts/Transonic%20Wind%20Drift/Slopeb_zps6ba75a69.jpg.html> 

I can also show you another portion of a test I did comparing the ballistics from a sample of three different manufacturers of 22lr bullets. In this case I also calculated a Ballistic Coefficient and the wind drift numbers.

Edit for this post: It should be obvious that calculated Ballistic Coefficients are of limited use in the Transonic range of velocities because the velocity itself is the dominant factor and not the projectile shape/form element.

The wind drift numbers were calculated using Dr. Geoffrey Kolbe's 3rd Order Polynomial Drag Function equation that Geoff derived from Robert McCoy's testing at the BRL (Ballistic Research Laboratory) at the Aberdeen Proving Grounds in 1990.

This research is titled “Memorandum Report BRL-MR-3877", if anyone wants to Google it for reading. It's the only definitive research ever conducted on 22 rf ballistics and should be required reading by everyone with an interest in the subject.

2nd edit for this post: Some of you might find ideas for experimentation if you look at BHN's and the working pressure of 22lr cartridges....just a thought and might be a dead end, but thought I'd mention it. I'm thinking complete and consistent obturation with lower pressures in conjunction with compatible chamber dimension may be one of the avenues to explore.

 

http://s239.photobucket.com/user/HuskerP7M8/media%20Posts/Transonic%20Wind%20Drift/Test_zps277a85be.jpg.html> 

What the Heck! Here's a few pics of my ballistic set-up: 

Landy

 

http://s239.photobucket.com/user/HuskerP7M8/media%20Posts/Transonic%20Wind%20Drift/Chronoa_zps4fd456a7.jpg.html>http://s239.photobucket.com/user/HuskerP7M8/media%20Posts/Transonic%20Wind%20Drift/Chronob_zpsaaa39228.jpg.html>http://s239.photobucket.com/user/HuskerP7M8/media%20Posts/Transonic%20Wind%20Drift/Chronod_zpse7054a0b.jpg.html>http://s239.photobucket.com/user/HuskerP7M8/media%20Posts/Transonic%20Wind%20Drift/Chronoc_zps365e2b05.jpg.html>

“In God we trust; all others must bring data.” “Without data, you're just another person with an opinion.” “If you can't describe what you are doing as a process, you don't know what you're doing.” “It is not enough to do your best, you must know what to do, and then do your best.” W. Edwards Deming (October 14, 1900 - December 20, 1993)

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John Alexander posted this 11 February 2014

Very interesting.  Thanks for taking the time to post. It's going to take a week for me to try to partially digest but it is good to see some substantial material to try and understand. John

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joeb33050 posted this 13 February 2014

Or, we could let others thrash about with the arithmetic. FROM THE FEDERAL BALLISTICS CALCULATOR http://www.federalpremium.com/ballisticscalculator/   BALLISTIC COEFFICIENT = BC = .2   MV, FPS         200 YARD WIND DRIFT “ 800                  9.1 900                  9.0 1000                9.8 1100                11.4 1200                13.1 1300                14.3 1400                14.9 1500                15.1 1600                14.7 1700                14.2 1800                13.6 1900                12.9 2000                12.1 2100                11.3 2200                10.6 2300                10.0     2400                9.4 2500                8.8

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joeb33050 posted this 13 February 2014

The numbers will vary with BC, but the shape of the function remains about the same. The low, least wind drift, is at ~ 900 fps, and is 9". At MVs below or above 900 fps, wind drift increases. As MV increases, wind drift increases, until about 1500 fps, where wind drift starts going down.Eventually, at about 2500 fps, wind drift is back down around the 900 fps number.  If we want a lot of wind drift, about 1500 fps is the place to find it.

Bullet weight and shape affect BC affect wind drift. In any caliber, heavier bullets and/or more streamlined bullets reduce wind drift at all MVs. So cast bullets blow around at ~1500 fps; either increasing or reducing MV reduces wind drift, 2500 fps is generally less feasible than 900 fps.  

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joeb33050 posted this 13 February 2014

I know, “function” is wrong, substitute “relationship"."Husker's” top graph is familiar to us. It would be of interest to change the “X” scale to ascending time for a view of what the bullet sees going down range.Then, X as ascending distance would be interesting. The “going through the sonic barrier” business affects 22 rf shooters to 1000 yard shooters, and all in between.Fiddling with Husker's arithmetic and graph would show that going subsonic affects accuracy only when the wind is blowing.

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joeb33050 posted this 14 February 2014

So it looks like going to 900 fps or so would be a good idea, with the less wind effect. But.As velocity decreases, the elevation change caused by a slight velocity variation is magnified. We know that MV varies, we've seen it on our chronographs. Slower bullets hit lower? Faster bullets hit higher? Same as above, Federal calculator.At 1500 fps a change in MV of 5 fps changes elevation .1".At 900 fps a change in MV of 5 fps changes elevation .5".According to the arithmetic.We know some things about this. MV variation doesn't seem to vary much with MV. Minimum/good/low ES and SD on the chronograph are kinda the same kinda numbers at any MV. This from my chronograph experience and reading-not a fact, more of a hint. As Elmer pointed out, elevation of the bullet on the target can be increased by DECREASING MV, slower bullets allow the muzzle to rise more. This seems to apply to rifles also, so that the MV:elevation change is sorta self-canceling. This varies with rifle dimensions and weight-heavier = less self-canceling. And in the background is the pretty strong evidence that up to 200 yards wind has a relatively small effect on group size. 

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joeb33050 posted this 15 February 2014

So, with the wind drift and velocity business covered, we look to what else we know that may provide clues.We CAN'T shoot plain-based bullets, fixed, as accurately as gas-checked fixed.We CAN shoot plain-based bullets breech-seated as accurately as gas-checked fixed.We CAN shoot gas-checked bullets, fixed, as accurately as plain-based breech seated.

Accuracy is/may be related to getting the bullet from the case neck into the rifling. Hence the “fit-the-throat” chant.

It seems logical that smaller cases like 30BR/308X1.5, .30 Kern, 32-20 shoot more accurately than larger cases like .308 W and 32-40. However, the data suggests that if so, the difference is teeny; and anecdotal evidence suggests that the difference may be imaginary.

But. Smaller cases may or may not shoot more accurately at normal 1400-1500 fps cast bullet velocities; however there IS evidence that smaller cases shoot more accurately at LOWER = ~900 fps velocities.  

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John Alexander posted this 15 February 2014

I agree that fixed/gas checked shooters over the last thirty five years of so have developed techniques (Ardito swaged bullet in dies identical to throat and other approaches) to equal the accuracy that breech seat/plain base reached much earlier .  But the fixed haven't bettered the plain based level of accuracy which also hasn't gotten any better.  That seems to imply that we hit some sort of ceiling about 12 years ago.   Where should we be looking to improve cast bullet accuracy from where we have been for the last 12 years.

When compared to other fields where progress is ongoing  such as in computer science, mileage and safety of cars, genetic engineering, etc., one aspect of cast bullet shooting stands out as different for the last 12 years from those fields.  We stopped sharing information. Those shooting at the highest levels no longer write and share what they what they have found - if they have found anything.  When have you last seen a Fouling Shot article by one of the CBA's top competitors in the classes producing the best groups (unrestricted Rifle, unrestricted pistol, heavy, and plain base bullet?)  They used to be in about every issue.  Now you will be lucky to find one or two in the last 12 years -- roughly the period when we have made no progress.

The old cliche about people making progress because they were able to “stand on the shoulders of giants” doesn't work any more in the cast bullet world.  Most of our giants are dead and they haven't been replaced by the current top shooters who don't seem to experiment much and if they do keep their secrets to themselves.

Maybe we don't care.  But if we are curious about how to make progress we will have to change. John

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joeb33050 posted this 16 February 2014

The 22 Long Rifle is yhr exception, with plain-based fixed shooting accurately. The SAAMI drawing for cartridge and chamber tells us what's going on. http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CCDrawings/Rimfire/22%20Long%20Rifle%20-%20Sporting.pdf The heeled crimped bullet is the trick. The heel is merely to get the case and bullet about the same diameter. The heeled bullet and the crimp work together to make the bullet breech seated. Note the .217” bore and .2255” bullet diameter. Gun chambers run large, ammo runs small in the bullet. Gotta make those 10-22s work. We only see serious 22 breech seating on target guns/target cartridges because of the need to operate with any ammunition, but general operation and accuracy is good. To capture this feature and approach a substantial accuracy increase, we need to find a teeny cartridge and a bullet that lends itself to this breech seating. We need thick necked brass and heeled bullets. If 300 AAC/Whisper brass were made from 222 Mag cases, the necks would be a little thicker. If a GC bullet were used less gas check, and the mouth crimped a bit, a soft .308” bullet would breech seat in a .300"/.308” barrel. I think the case and bullet same dia is not a critical property. 30 Carbine? Many of the pistol ctgs? My next custom barrel will be the 300 AAC.   

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joeb33050 posted this 16 February 2014

John Alexander wrote: I agree that fixed/gas checked shooters over the last thirty five years of so have developed techniques (Ardito swaged bullet in dies identical to throat and other approaches) to equal the accuracy that breech seat/plain base reached much earlier .  But the fixed haven't bettered the plain based level of accuracy which also hasn't gotten any better.  That seems to imply that we hit some sort of ceiling about 12 years ago.   Where should we be looking to improve cast bullet accuracy from where we have been for the last 12 years.

When compared to other fields where progress is ongoing  such as in computer science, mileage and safety of cars, genetic engineering, etc., one aspect of cast bullet shooting stands out as different for the last 12 years from those fields.  We stopped sharing information. Those shooting at the highest levels no longer write and share what they what they have found - if they have found anything.  When have you last seen a Fouling Shot article by one of the CBA's top competitors in the classes producing the best groups (unrestricted Rifle, unrestricted pistol, heavy, and plain base bullet?)  They used to be in about every issue.  Now you will be lucky to find one or two in the last 12 years -- roughly the period when we have made no progress.

The old cliche about people making progress because they were able to “stand on the shoulders of giants” doesn't work any more in the cast bullet world.  Most of our giants are dead and they haven't been replaced by the current top shooters who don't seem to experiment much and if they do keep their secrets to themselves.

Maybe we don't care.  But if we are curious about how to make progress we will have to change. John John;Since the best-shooting shooters haven't made much or any progress in the period 2000-2013, 14 years, I don't know what they'd write about. If they-or we- have learned anything startling in that time, groups don't show it. We've got a GC recipe and a plain-based recipe, and all it takes to bake the cake is money and time. But, it's the same recipe, repeated over and over. And the same cake. Desperate for change we invent 45 pound pistols. Our best shooters shoot groups that wouldn't be competitive in jacketed matches during the Eisenhower years.We're like old dogs, no new tricks.By the way, all I looked at was 2000-2013; it could be that there was no change in some/many of the prior years. If I had the match results for prior years I'd be happy to add the info. Maybe go back to Andy Barniskis smoothing off bullets in a washer/dryer.

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