Beware of the Conventional Wisdom

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John Alexander posted this 21 January 2014

   Conventional wisdom (CW) is the generally accepted belief, opinion, judgment, or prediction about a particular matter.  Note that these are “accepted” not necessarily proven or true. We have a bunch of CW rules in cast bullet shooting and as with CWs in most other fields, many of them are a waste of time.

    Because I am skeptical about many of these rules being foisted on beginners as if written on a clay tablet, I was interested to run into a discussion in Benchrest Central where some jacket bullet benchresters were citing experiments that cast doubt on some of the most holy CWs of loading precision jacketed ammunition. Things that “everybody knows” are important.  The address below links to the thread.  I hope this thread encourages more skepticism about some of our own time wasting rituals and sparks additional discussion on our own forum.     http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?88367-Boy!-Was-I-Ever-Wrong>http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?88367-Boy!-Was-I-Ever-Wrong     We weigh powder charges, sort bullets by weight, and reject bullets with small to medium wrinkles or with rounded corners.  We check loaded rounds for concentricity, clean primer pockets and the inside of case necks.  Some of us even sort cases by weight and index cases and bullets so they are loaded in the same position.  These are all parts of the cast bullet CW but as far as I know none of them have been proven by any kind of well designed experiment to improve accuracy.  Are we sure we aren't just wasting a lot of time and energy?

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RicinYakima posted this 21 January 2014

In my opinion, for what that is worth, shooting six 3-shot groups didn't tell me squat; especially when there was no backer and no pictures. I will always error on the side of intense labor, nit picking details and ten 10-shot groups. I don't care if it is a waste of time, it gives me confidence that it is the best ammo crafted for one rifle.

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onondaga posted this 21 January 2014

It is easy to present false logic as truth and use it as fact in an argument to present what you desire to say. Talk to an an extremist that believes in himself. He believes none of his logic is false.

I used to like to see the match winners loose and then pay attention to what they blame it on or what they accuse the winner of doing to win.

It is the guy that can take somebody's best rifle and  best ammo and shoot groups smaller than owner of the rifle and ammo.....that is the shooter. I place marksmanship way above many ballistic variables that are gospel CW.

Fuzzy logic? That is debatable.

I can find a sweet spot of accuracy and do use steps I believe will correctly  widen the sweet spot of accuracy by lowering variables. I honestly do that to better cover my own marksmanship error bandwidth. I have repeated within an inch, my lifetime best of 5 shots in a 6.82” at 1,000 yards with 3 different rifles in 3 different calibers. If I were at my best and healthiest, I don't believe a better rifle , better ammo and better optics would give me a smaller group. I am the biggest limitation not the rifle and other stuff. You learn this by watching someone that is a better marksman as I have watched, take those three rifles of mine and shoot them better than me.

Gary

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 21 January 2014

hi john ... great link ...

i think he was saying ... if the bullet is guided perfectly at start, it doesn't matter if you are using red brass or green brass ...

i remember a serious bench match that was won with a factory model 70 ... ( ok, not factory loads ) ..


during my wasted degenerative 30 years of racing toy cars, it took about 3 years of early confusion before i learned to ignore the billion permutations of distracting variables ... and to stick to the very small number of basic, boring, fundamentals ... at any major race of say 100 competitors, safely 92 entries would try something radical .. that never worked before ... a secret weapon .. a 2-edged blade sort of thing ( g ) .


and so, i think the cba should print a * LIST * of 3 or 7 basic things for success ... on a business card , we could carry a few to hand out to prospective casters ...cba link, etc.


i do think the cba has attained good results in education of the general shooting pool; i notice that more and more lead bullet loaders are mentioning good bullet/throat fit as a top priority.

not so only 5-10 years ago.

i feel good !

ken

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joeb33050 posted this 21 January 2014

ACCURACY AND ERRORS              In a perfect world rifles would shoot one-hole groups. It isn't and they don't. There are a number of imperfections, called here “errors", that affect accuracy. Errors might include barrel quality or bullet dimensions or powder charge weight variation. I don't know how many errors there are, or the exact effect of these errors, singly or in combination, on accuracy. (Here “accuracy” is defined and measured by average group size.)             The shooting folklore includes, (among others), two notions. First and most commonly heard is that there are many errors affecting accuracy, so many, a number so large, that we can never deal with them all. Or identify them all.             Second is the “synergy” contention, typified by this quote from a shooter using “features” in place of errors: “BUT sometimes three or four features that are individually insignificant will collectively make a large difference; as in tuning a rifle."             (While discussing these notions, both the wringing of hands and the throwing up of arms is frequently observed.)              There are some things that we do know about these errors.              Errors vary in effect. Powder choice affects accuracy more than does shooting-bullets-in-the-order-cast. Bullet choice affects accuracy more than does consistent/inconsistent flash hole diameter. Errors come in (at least) three flavors. The “choice” flavor: IMR4227 or SR4759 ot A#9 are choices, WLP or WLR or Rem 2 1/2 are choices, weight segregating brass or not is a choice. The “amount” flavor: 12/IMR4227 or 12.3/IMR 2227 or 12.6/IMR4227 are differences in amount. The “tolerance” flavor: (Units are grains) Weight segregating bullets into categories +/- .5, or +/-.3, or +/-.1 are differences in tolerances of the categories. Weighing powder charges to +/- 0 or +/- .1 or +/1 .3 are tolerances of the charges.   Controlling some errors is essentially free. (Thanks to gunlaker on the ASSRA forum for helping get my thoughts organized on this.)             Cleaning primer pockets, uniforming flash holes, uniforming primer pockets, segregating cases by weight, trimming cases to length, turning case necks, visually inspecting/rejecting bullets, weighing/dribbling hard-to-meter powders”¦             There are a lot of errors that may or may not affect accuracy, that require little effort or expense. If we take the actions to eliminate these errors, we don't have to worry or think about them.              Error effect on accuracy is constant.             For example, imagine a rifle shooting 2” groups with load A and 1/2” groups with load B. Loads A and B use the same Remington brass. If using Lapua brass rather than Remington brass reduces load B groups by 1/8", to 3/8"; then using that brass will reduce load A groups by the same 1/8", to 1 7/8". Now imagine another rifle, using the original load A and B brass, and shooting 1” groups. Changing to the Lapua brass will reduce groups by 1/8", to 7/8".             Changing brass as described changes accuracy as described, for any load or rifle.              Multiple error effects don't simply add.             Changing multiple errors to affect group size yields less total affect than the summed effects of the individual changes.             Example: Load A produces 2” groups. Changing from Remington to Lapua brass reduces group size by .125", from 2” to 1.875". Changing the powder charge amount reduces group size by .5", from 2” to 1.5". Changing both, one would suspect, would reduce group size from 2” by .125” + .5” = .625", or to 1.375". They don't. They change group size by .515", to 1.485".  (The total change is the square root of the sum of the individual changes squared.)              The above is true only when the errors are independent. Dependent error pairs include powder charge amount and cartridge case volume; because different cartridge case volumes AND different powder charge amounts both affect pressure and velocity. Both errors affect pressure and velocity; they have a common effect.             Independent error pairs include primer pocket depth and bullet weight variation, since they do not have a common effect.             When multiple dependent errors are changed, the accuracy effect of the changes is (almost always) LESS than the square root of the summed squared effects.              This means that it is likely that small group size changes from small error changes get reduced or even lost in the arithmetic.  This may be why data is lacking on the effects of such errors as shooting-bullets-in-the-order-cast, weighing powder charges or bullets to .1 grain, orienting bullets/cases/both, or the myriad of other vigorously defended marginal error changes.

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R. Dupraz posted this 21 January 2014

I read this thread on the benchresters forum several months ago and while it is  interesting, it needs to be taken for what it's worth. One example of one shooter's experience with one particular rifle and his loading techniques. And the conclusion is then that we can disregard all these other things. There are just too many other variables to form any kind of valid conclusion. One of which is the shooters marksmanship ability at any given time, to start with. What have the match winners been doing over time?        I am a firm believer that after reaching a certain point in load development (accuracy) and ability that “the devil is in the details". In other words, improvement in either of the above becomes harder and that consistently smaller groups come only with the combination of these details together, such as the poster left out of his loading process. This opinion comes from spending 15+ yrs or so shooting pistol, rifle, BPCR in NRA competion and CBA matches.       So, to form any opinion one way or the other on one example is flawed. In order to prove anything, many groups would have to be fired from different rifles off of a machine rest.   And I agree with what Ric wrote that six three shot groups don't tell anything. If they did, I would have a cabin full of gold.      I do agree with one poster though, who replied to that benchrester thread when he wrote, something to the effect that, in order to control results we need to measure.                

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John Alexander posted this 21 January 2014

   Interesting bunch of responses and I agree with all of them ”€œ well maybe not every detail.

    You have heard this kind of thing from me before.  Please let me make my intentions clear.  I am not interested in trying to get CB shooters to stop doing all the little things that may or may not make a difference.  If we like to do them and they give confidence you should do it.  I am skeptical of some of the things said to be necessary but we don't really know how much or how little difference some of them make so I am sympathetic to anyone who wants to play it safe and don't mean to criticize.  Many cast bullet shooters, me included, LIKE to attend to details so we may fuss over them because we enjoy it.  I box up bullets in neat rows, which is a waste of time, but I enjoy it and this is my hobby and my sport and I will do it however I like.     The main reason I object to it making CB shooting seem harder and more complicated and more time consuming than it ought to be to get good results it will drive off shooters.  Face it, a lot of potential CB shooters would rather shoot more and fart around less doing extra steps in loading.  I believe we are losing this type of shooter and some of them would get a lot of pleasure out of our sport and maybe beat us at our own game if we hadn't told them of all the endless detail work they needed to do. Some of them might even join the CBA and helped keep it and this forum going.     The other reason I think we should question some of our own dogma is that according to Joe we haven't improved (as measured by the groups fired in our nationals) for a dozen years. I don't think that is because we aren't weighing bullets carefully enough or indexing bullets and cases and I have offered evidence in the Fouling Shot to back up my contention.  Maybe RD is right that the devil is in the details but I tend to think that we have the details pretty well covered and the devil is in the fundamentals ”€œ bullet design, bullet fit, powder characteristics, bore quality and maybe bore design.  There is a lot we don't understand and it ain't how to weigh bullets better.  Why do we get lots of loose lead in a bore as I described in the latest fouling shot and still win matches while this is going on? We ought to find out and we will be less likely to find out if we don't start asking different questions.     John

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RicinYakima posted this 21 January 2014

"The main reason I object to it making CB shooting seem harder and more complicated and more time consuming than it ought to be to get good results it will drive off shooters.  Face it, a lot of potential CB shooters would rather shoot more and fart around less doing extra steps in loading.  I believe we are losing this type of shooter and some of them would get a lot of pleasure out of our sport and maybe beat us at our own game if we hadn't told them of all the endless detail work they needed to do. Some of them might even join the CBA and helped keep it and this forum going."

      Yes, John, the answer is what are “good results"? Gunzine writers say that anything under 2 MOA is good and that is pretty easy to get. It is all of us match shooters that are the whiners! We want smaller groups! My 450 Watts' or 358 Norma will kill anything I would shoot at up to 250 yards, as far as I would shoot at anything with anything. Plinking and small game loads are a piece of cake to make. After running hunter sight in days at my gun club, not one in twenty shooters can hold 8 MOA no matter what rifle and ammo they are using. No skill and no practice is always the killer.    

"The other reason I think we should question some of our own dogma is that according to Joe we haven't improved (as measured by the groups fired in our nationals) for a dozen years."      

That is not true in the Military Rifle group, as we have had to reduce targets as there were too many 100's and groups so small that they are hard to score. "I tend to think that we have the details pretty well covered and the devil is in the fundamentals."      

For the commercial rifles, what is working for jacketed bullets is not working well for cast (soft) bullets. I certainly don't have the money to pursue any radical changes in design, but that is where the next step is going to have to come from, something radical. 500 grain bullets in .40 caliber barrels with gain twists firing less than 1000 f/s would be the first thing I would try.    

FWIW, Ric 

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 21 January 2014

filler. that's what the following comments are ..

i scan _ cast boolits _ occasionally, it's interesting from a clinical psychology standpoint ( g ) ... recently, on prompting from my modern daughter, i joined facebook .. geepers they have a _ cast bullet _ group ... 2000+ members .. and they seem pretty knowlegeable .. must be some cba mentors in there ...


i might mention that FACEBOOK reminds me of the army barracks toilets .... very very very unprivate ..

ken

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John Alexander posted this 22 January 2014

Ric -- what are good results?  Well I was thinking of good results as being a new shooter becoming competitive in CBA competition at the national level. (Joe based his study on the results in national competition).  My contention is that it isn't necessary or even desirable to have a new shooter believing that if he is precise enough about the details he will get good results.  Working on shooting technique and the fundamentals (bullet design, hardness, powder, bullet fit, etc.) will get better results.  I have been fairly competitive (on and off) without doing any of the things that Joe listed and I have test results that satisfy me that many of those things don't help.  I know  all the serious people do them and more. That is fine, but we shouldn't foist them off on new shooters until we have some evidence that they do some good.  For most of them we don't have that evidence yet and I don't see anybody running tests to see if the details Joe lists as being free make any difference and if so how much difference.  

I guess I am arguing that we should change CB shooting (at least the serious kind -- nothing wrong with shooting bean cans) from a faith based procedure to an evidence based procedure.

You are right military shooters are still improving their scores.  I thought of that too late and should have have made it clear that I was talking about the the older CBA benchrest classes that Joe studied. Since hunting rifle class is also relatively new I think we will also see improvement in the scores and groups fired in that class for a while yet.  I believe that there are fundamental changes that might provide progress that we can explore and some of them wouldn't be too costly, very low velocity, very high velocity with harder bullets, gain twist, choke, better bullet design, effective wads, etc.   John

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Wineman posted this 22 January 2014

I think the Highpower shooter said it best: “concentrate only on sight alignment and sight picture, nothing else matters” (talking about offhand shooting at 200 yards). The variables in the rifle, load and projectile are small compared to the actual person on the trigger.

Dave

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joeb33050 posted this 22 January 2014

Today's Cast Bullet techniques are perfectly adequate for hunting and offhand shooting.

Today's Cast Bullet techniques have yielded bench rest accuracy that has remained pretty much constant in the period 2000-2013, with group averages much larger than jacketed bullet averages. Competition jacketed bullet groups are a fourth to a third the size of cast.

 Some respected shooter once wrote an article called: “The Name of the Game is The Same". This article puts forward the notion that doing it all the same way leads to accuracy. While it IS important to control the processes, this article has led more shooters to waste more time with poorer results than any other article I've ever read.In fact, THE NAME OF THE GAME IS DOING THE RIGHT THINGS  PRETTY MUCH THE SAME, with emphasis on RIGHT THINGS.

Fixed ammunition with soft plain based bullets using IMR 4831 in a Marlin 336, with every real or imagined variable controlled to death, ain't going to win any CBA PRO competition. Doing the wrong things the same may be the name of some game, but that game isn't accuracy.  To make marked improvement in Cast Bullet bench rest accuracy, we must change some of the WRONG things for RIGHT things.

One method is to approach jacketed bullet techniques with hard, maybe zinc, bullets at high velocities. Another is Ken's: to take lessons from the 22 rimfire, using a very small case with a heeled? soft plain based bullet at ~1100 fps in a slow-for-caliber twist barrel.The .300 Whisper/.300 AAC comes to mind in 30 caliber, the 5.7X28 in 22 caliber.

And John's point is well taken. We, the CBA, should de-mystify the cast bullet business and prepare a simple how-to guide for getting started, accurately. Or drive newcomers away with the nonsense.

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JeffinNZ posted this 23 January 2014

I like where Joe is coming from. I know I have reinvented the wheel more times than I care to admit and do my best to help others avoid the same. Of course you can lead a horse to water......

Cheers from New Zealand

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JonnnyReb posted this 28 January 2014

Okay, I'm new and if I'm getting the vibes of this post right, here's what I think as a newbie.

Shooting is shooting, but shooting cast bullets have to have a little more care to perfection. Somebody new coming in need to know where to start and how to start. The need to know all the abbreviations so as to stay on track. I read a lot, but that doesn't mean I know what I'm doing. I watched a lot of racing, but till you get behind the wheel on a track, it just ain't the same. The dogma and different ways of doing things is normal to anything. What the new person has to do is not follow along blindly. I've been reloading about 20 years. Some of the knowledge from reloading factory bullets has to equate over to cast bullets. But now it's up to me to discern from all I read about cast loads to understand where to go now. I just have to rely on you folks with knowledge not to lead an old 70 fart astray.

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Maven posted this 28 January 2014

"THE NAME OF THE GAME IS DOING THE RIGHT THINGS  PRETTY MUCH THE SAME...."

Isn't that essentially Einstein's definition of insanity, i.e., doing things the same way, but expecting different results?

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muley posted this 28 January 2014

Welcome aboard Johnnyreb, I suggest reading maney of the different posts and pick out the parts that will fill in your needs. and don"t be afraid to ask questions, we all started somwhere and don"t have all the answers, but we work together to help each other.  at 70 you are still a pup, so you may be able to help us old boys. Jim

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bushranch posted this 28 January 2014

2000 - 2013 Results. Just sitting wondering how age and experience of the shooters fits into all this ? If we consider when one starts CB shooting and how long you can keep it up before you peak and finally no longer compete. Some great young shooters no longer appear at the Nationals and that data is lost to us etc.

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joeb33050 posted this 28 January 2014

No. It doesn't even look the same. Not even close. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is sometimes called “Increasing the sample size."

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 29 January 2014

i was going to suggest good accuracy as ” as good as obtained with good hunting mj bullets ” not an original goal, that ..

however, some of the specific old guns we play with may not have a well-fitted mj bullet .. so perhaps a well dimensioned casterated bullet might win that comparison . ..

just sayin

kn

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Chargar posted this 29 January 2014

Much of the common wisdom and it's variances comes from perception and need. When folks don't share a common perception and need, confusion and often confrontation are the results.

I need/want to have any give rifle produce cast bullet accuracy at the same level as good commercial jacketed bullet ammo. When I get to that point, I am very happy and just go shooting. Endless experimentation for it's own sake or to shave off a fraction of an inch from average groups hold little or now interest for me.

Because of my perceptions and needs, it is not very difficult to find cast bullet happiness in my rifles.

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Loren Barber posted this 30 January 2014

Johnny,  I like your thoughts and approach.  Making and shooting cast bullets is a lot of fun No matter what you're desired level of perfection is.  Enjoy as much as you can. Personally i like to strive for as much improvement as possible.  Others may not care as much.  Enjoy, enjoy, enjoy

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