% bad bullets

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  • Last Post 16 January 2014
jwburke posted this 04 January 2014

I was wondering once you get going how many bad bullets are still cast.  I have cast 5 times so far.  Today I cast 228 Bullets using Lee Double Cavity 124 Grain Round Nose Bullet Mold 380, 9mm.  I had 51 bad. Some were incomplete fills and some were wrinkled. I guess my question is for the people who have been doing this for a while; do you ever get to the point where all the bullets are perfect and if not what is an acceptable good to bad ratio? I am calling “bad” anything that has a flaw that I can see.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 04 January 2014

you might be a little harsh in your rejecting ” wrinkled ” bullets, especially for pistols ( g ) .


be sure to clean the cavities before a casting session ...i use a toothbrush and an aggressive brake cleaner aerosol.


casting on the hot side can bypass some fillout problems. when your pot is too hot the sprue takes forever to ” set ” ...

also i like to pour a big ugly puddle of hot lead over the sprue holes ... makes a complete fill. i probably have more hot lead on the sprue plate than in the cavities ...

just some trivia ...

ken

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Ed Harris posted this 04 January 2014

Learn to use an electric hot plate to pre-heat your molds. Use a 300 degree F Tempilstik on the blocks, and then alternate between two molds, filling one and setting it aside for the sprue to harden while you empty and refill the other.

Dump bullets from the mold onto a folded towel and roll them off towards the right side as you cast. Every 5th pour do a quick visual and put any obvious rejects in the sprue box. As you resume and accumulate bullets move the pile to the edge of the towel to clear the area used for dropping bullets from the mold. When the towel starts getting “full", put both molds on the hot plate to stay warm while you do a more thorough visual inspection of the bullets cast, after having returned sprue and preliminary rejects to the pot.

On second inspection I am fussy about bases and roll each bullet across the table to check fill out. I reject less than 5% on second inspection, but if base cut off and bands are good, minor nose defects are kept for plinkers and foulers.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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grouch posted this 04 January 2014

I think less than 10% with 18:1, much less with ww+2%tin. Have a look at Charlie Dell's casting method in “the Modern Scheutzen Rifle. In short, ladle cast, continue pouring lead for at least a full second after the mold is full, and cast at a high enough temp. It seems slow, but you get to keep more bullets. The thought was that you need to be SURE that the sprue cools LAST. This really cuts down on core voids in your bullets. Grouch

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norm posted this 04 January 2014

 First make sure the mold is clean. Oil or grease will cause wrinkled bullets. I oil my molds for storage and boil them in water wish dish soap and scrub with a tooth brush and then boil in clear water. Make sure there are no water drops anywhere on or in the mold before pouring lead. Melted lead and water is dangerous combination! Smoking the mold with a wooden match to deposit a layer of soot often helps fill out Raising the heat of the melt usually helps.

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onondaga posted this 04 January 2014

http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrities/alyssa-milano> http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=7913>jwburke

There is a specific reason for every flaw you run into in bullet casting. Beginners rarely have the experience to identify with the correct terms what their errors and flaws really are. Shotgunning at possibilities with generalities is usually a long and very unproductive method to get better at casting.

You mention,

Incomplete fill: Is usually caused by cold mold, cold alloy or poor pouring method. Cold mold is best corrected by casting cadence. if you are not dropping bullets from the mold 3 times a minute, you are too slow for a 1-2 cavity mold and will not maintain a high enough mold temperature. Don't stop and inspect bullets till you are done and ready to start a new session with new metal and sprues. Stopping your cadence changes thermodynamics. The alloy in your pot should be 100 degrees hotter than its fluidus temperature as an ideal and maintained there by not dropping new metal or sprues into the pot during a casting session. Pouring directly center into the sprue gate hole causes gurgling that blocks metal flow by not letting air escape. This will cause voids. A long stream from ladle or spout allows metal to cool causing an incomplete fill. perfect casting technique and less than 1.5 percent tin in your alloy will limit fill-out. There are other possibilities for incomplete fill. Really good close-up photos of your bullets with defects are identifiable, diagnostic to an expert and should lead to the right answers for a fix.

and

Wrinkles:  Smooth wrinkles are caused by very different reasons than rough, porous or cracked wrinkles are caused. Wrinkles are simply not just wrinkles. Dimpling is altogether different also. Close-up photos will identify what you have done. Smooth wrinkles are usually caused by cold metal, cold mold, slow or blocked air escape pouring, long stream cooled metal and more. rough wrinkling is caused by over heated mold or metal or rapid cooling of very hot metal in a cool mold, and more. Dimpling is caused by oil in the mold gassing out or liquid cleaners etc in the mold causing smooth craters.

A knowledgeable, well practiced and skilled caster gets near zero flaws once his mold, metal and casting cadence are balanced with thermodynamics correct for the alloy and mold. Not knowing what the heck that means or how the heck to control anything leads to a high bad bullet ratio.

Many look at casting as a simple task, it is a science and not just pouring metal into a hole. You can learn by trial and error and not listen to anybody's advice and still become an excellent bullet caster. That can be a long route that many give up, but some are excellent at that.

Gary, retired casting analyst

If you are looking for a simple way to get really good, really fast, there is a way. Cast next to someone that gets excellent results all the time, copy him exactly without fail. You don't even need to ask questions, just look closely and follow what works exactly.

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joeb33050 posted this 04 January 2014

Today cast 225646 in a 2 cavity mold, inspected under 4X magnifier.  258 good bullets,. 4 rejects. Casting time ~1.5 hours. I preheat the mold on the edge of the pot, let the mold and pot preheat for at least 45 minutes. These are hard shiny almost linotype bullets. Today was a good day, but I never reject more than ~ 5%, and keep those for foulers/sighters. Yesterday, same mold, 250 good and ~10-12 rejects. For me it's all about getting mold and lead alloy hot before starting, I want the pot to be cycling on and off before I begin, and a dab of lube to melt and catch fire when dropped in the pot.I cast fast, don't inspect during casting, don't like to cast and just want it over with. I cast sitting down, used to stand up. I'm going to try standing again, got to make a take down bench thing.   

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joeb33050 posted this 04 January 2014

jwburke wrote: I was wondering once you get going how many bad bullets are still cast.  I have cast 5 times so far.  Today I cast 228 Bullets using Lee Double Cavity 124 Grain Round Nose Bullet Mold 380, 9mm.  I had 51 bad. Some were incomplete fills and some were wrinkled. I guess my question is for the people who have been doing this for a while; do you ever get to the point where all the bullets are perfect and if not what is an acceptable good to bad ratio? I am calling “bad” anything that has a flaw that I can see.There are three things I forgot.1. Casting bullets has to be learned, like everything else. The caster has to cast, steadily, without stopping. You'll learn that. Practice makes perfect, and new molds need break in-I don't put anything in the cavities, no smoking, others smoke-but break in is required.2. Some days, with the pot and mold hot, I can't cast bullets. They stick in the mold, have big obvious flaws, things just don't work. I surrender and quit-can't explain it, it happens rarely now, but it happens.3. Incomplete fills and wrinkles are because the mold and? alloy aren't hot enough. A little tin helps, but heat helps more. Pure lead cast bullets can be made, 95% good, if everything's hot enough. 

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JeffinNZ posted this 04 January 2014

You didn't get some zinc in the mix did you?

Cheers from New Zealand

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mckg posted this 04 January 2014

They are lots of variables: alloy, temp, mold material and cavities cut, bullet design, experience... all the above (useful) readings will tell that much :).

That 124-RN is pretty easy. You will learn to know your molds (the more the better :)). Sometimes the light comes after years of use.

I always dump the bullets in my right (gloved) hand for a quick inspection; it tells me immediately when something is wrong and I can address it. I don't have to go through the whole pile later. My few misses will come up at lubing or loading times.

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John Alexander posted this 04 January 2014

jwburk, Well there you have it.  The advice above is excellent and shows that there are many ways to cast with practically no rejects with either bottom pour or dipper.  Getting the mold clean, getting it hot enough, and keeping a steady cadence are common to all the above advice. I agree with a couple of the comments above that you may be rejecting a lot of bullets that will shoot just fine.  Try some of your wrinkled bullets in comparison with your “good” ones and see if there is any difference in performance.  That said, if things are working right you shouldn't even be tempted to reject over 3-5%. John

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LWesthoff posted this 04 January 2014

I've been casting for something over 40 years - both pistol (mostly .45 ACP) and rifle (mostly .30 cal.) I ladle cast out of a 20 lb. pot, first Saeco, and when that one finally died I now use a Lyman pot. I usually use 2 double cavity molds, alternating between the two. While the sprue cools on one, I'm filling the other one. That kind of casting session usually produces around 200 bullets. If there is a very obvious flaw, the bullet goes back in the pot - probably accounts for an average of 2 or 3 bullets per casting session. When I'm through casting, I examine every bullet under a 3X magnifier. That usually results in another 4 to 6 more rejects - small flaws I didn't catch while I was casting.

I use straight lino for rifle bullets, and wheel weights plus a wee bit of tin (sometimes) for the pistol bullets.

When I start, I fill the pot with ingots and/or lino strips or WWs and turn it on. At the same time I set the molds on a little portable electric hot plate to heat them, and then I go find something else to do for 30-45 minutes. When I come back to the casting bench, we're ready to roll, and the first bullets out of the mold are just as good as the last ones. (I've proved that to myself by keeping them separate and checking appearance and weight.)

My casting thermometer died a couple of years ago so I can't give you a max. or min. temp, but I keep it just UNDER so hot it would give me frosted bullets. There's nothing wrong with frosted bullets, but I can't see real small flaws as easily.

Hope this helps...

Wes

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R. Dupraz posted this 04 January 2014

jwburke:

Casting good bullets just isn't that complicated. And hope you aren't suffering from information overload. Sounds like you are off to a good start so now it's just a matter of solving a few minor kinks. It will come with time.

Wrinkled bullets - generally caused by unclean mold or temp of melt and or mold not high enough.

bullets not filled out - same as above or not pouring enough of a puddle on top of sprue plate.

While, there can be balky molds from time to time, after the initial cleaning when used for the first time, I use oil to preserve the blocks and then clean with brake fluid and a nylon tooth brush before casting.

I inspect each bullet after it drops from the mold, If there is a flaw it goes back into the pot and then fix whatever problem there might be and let it go at that.

Good luck

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Duane Mellenbruch posted this 04 January 2014

I believe RD has given you a good summary of casting.  Myself, I just start casting when the mold and pot are at the correct temp.  “Inspection” during a session for me, just means that I look at the fresh castings to pull out obvious defects.  I would suggest that for new casters, it would be of benefit to work on the tempo and process and just a casual glance to see what the trend of your efforts might be.   That should tell you if you are not filling the mold quick enough, cutting the sprue too soon, dropping the bullets too soon, or the mold is overheating and taking longer than average to allow the sprue to become solid.  Experience in the process helps a lot.  Have a long enough run so that it is still fun, but not so long that you just want to get it over with.  If you need to pause, add ingots, place the mold on the rim of the pot and relax a few minutes.  Try to keep it relaxed. 

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Tom Acheson posted this 04 January 2014

Visual quality tells you things. But perfect looking bullets can be deceiving. When you weigh those perfect looking bullets you discover that most fall within a respectable “bell curve” but those outside of the curve are the ones you want to find. Unusually light ones probably have an internal void that can't be seen. And if the void is close to the surface, it could influence the bullet's flight.

I just made 167 .38-55 Saeco 300-grain bullets and had 6 on the “lighter than should be” area of the curve. These were in the 292-293 weight range while everybody else was in the 294-295-grain neighborhood. Save those oddballs for fouling shots.

Just one more twist to developing the “art” of good casting skills!

Tom

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jwburke posted this 05 January 2014

Thank you all for all the useful info!!! I know that practice makes perfect. After hearing what everyone has to say I don't think I am doing too badly. I forgot to mention I am using a cast iron pan on an electric plate with a ladle. I had a 25 pound bag of lead shot laying around that I had used as weight in my boat I have been casting that stuff.

JOE

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jwburke posted this 05 January 2014

I just gotta say I keep looking at your name on the fourm “Onondaga”  I grew up in Syracuse, NY  Onondaga county!JOE

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onondaga posted this 05 January 2014

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=7913>jwburke

Onondaga flint in Western New York is my favorite rock to use flintknapping. I am an avid flintknapper and make reproductions of local primitive arrowheads,  blades and stone tools. http://s30.photobucket.com/user/rhymeswithwhat/media/sand6.jpg.html>

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jwburke posted this 05 January 2014

Gary, that sounds like an awesome hobby! I had a small collection of arrowheads as a child that someone gave me. They look very cool.

JOE

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delmarskid1 posted this 05 January 2014

I started casting on a hot plate. I found them at the thrift stores and junk shops. Older hot plates ran hotter. A lot of them would run on 1000 watts or more. The new ones run at 750 watts a lot of the time and they didn't always do it for me. If you like casting you might want to pick up a 10 lb. Lee pot for starters or just go for it with one of the 20's. You can't beat them for the money. I've also noticed that new Lee molds are the hardest to get clean. It's as if they use some cutting fluid that is tough to get off even with Dawn and a tooth brush. I used to try to get perfect bullets now I try for lots of bullets. I like having a lot of bullets, powder,primers, and brass. It makes me feel secure.

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CB posted this 05 January 2014

joeb33050 wrote: There are three things I forgot.1. Casting bullets has to be learned, like everything else. The caster has to cast, steadily, without stopping. You'll learn that. Practice makes perfect, and new molds need break in-I don't put anything in the cavities, no smoking, others smoke-but break in is required.2. Some days, with the pot and mold hot, I can't cast bullets. They stick in the mold, have big obvious flaws, things just don't work. I surrender and quit-can't explain it, it happens rarely now, but it happens.3. Incomplete fills and wrinkles are because the mold and? alloy aren't hot enough. A little tin helps, but heat helps more. Pure lead cast bullets can be made, 95% good, if everything's hot enough.

2 cracked my up Joe. I was industriously casting 38 cal hollowpoints this morning when I somehow managed to foul the cavity. I think it was the single drop of Bullplate lube that I put on the pivot screw when it started feeling rough. Or perhaps the mold wanted the day off. Anyway, I tossed my rejects back in the pot, unplugged it, and came inside where it's warm.

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