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mike0841 posted this 03 December 2013

This the place for all your postulations on the care and feeding of scatterguns. I guess it is relevant as you can cast shot as well.

Mike

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pat i. posted this 03 December 2013

OK Craig you got your shotgun forum now lets hear about your cast ball or slug experiments. I'm pretty sure John Alexander casts for a 20 gauge so you'll have some help if you need it.

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6pt-sika posted this 03 December 2013

pat i. wrote: OK Craig you got your shotgun forum now lets hear about your cast ball or slug experiments. I'm pretty sure John Alexander casts for a 20 gauge so you'll have some help if you need it.

I haven't gotten to the roundball stuff yet !

My intrest is mainly in old side by sides damascus or fluid steel !

I have overcome the buckshot stuff in 2 7/8” 10 gauge , 12 gauge , 16 gauge and 20 gauge .

I have some mini's I cast for a couple 1861 58 cal Contract Rifled Muskets I have and they seem to be a decent fit inside a REM SP-16 wad so I wanna give them a try I can change the diameter to make them more snug in the shotcup with teflon tape . So that'll most likely be my first try with the home made shotgun slugs !

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Ed Harris posted this 04 December 2013

I will post some pictures of 24-ga. cases being modified for .577 Snider, but would prevail upon Giorgio to fill in the details. Enjoy the eye candy!

What Giorgio ended up with, we took an RCBS Minie mold and sent it to Erik at www.hollowpointmold.com to cut an RWS style “stop ring” .600” diameter and 2mm wide to establish proper overall cartridge length when the bullet was inserted into a 2-inch case with the fingers. Giorgio is now using CBC brass 24-ga. shotshell cases cut off with a tubing cutter.

It is vital that the stop ring be large enough to seal the generous throat, but that case length be controlled so as not to force the band into the rifiling because the Snider has no camming leverage for either chambering or extraction.

If you try too light a load in a paper case, which is inadequate to obturate and seal the chamber, you will get a “dished” case head like the one shown. Giorgio has worked out a smokeless load with a common Italian shotshell powder which shoots well and gives about 1050 f.p.s.

Round balls of .600” diameter pressed into the case mouth also work well. I do not know if he has tried this load on boar yet, but I believe that he is hunting this month so we hopefully may have a report soon.

In boca al lupo!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 04 December 2013

I am interested in feedback and comments on this article before it goes into the Fouling Shot.

All critique, suggestions and comments welcome.

THIS IS A DRAFT


Before WW1, light, break-open utility guns suited for use with either shot or ball were popular for small game hunting. Farmers and outdoorsmen used .44 shot and .44-40 cartridges interchangeably in H&R and Iver-Johnson break-open single-barrel guns, Stevens “pocket shotguns", and the famous Marble's Game Getter. The .44 Game Getter Ball cartridge, loaded with 30 grains of black powder and a 115-grain, .425” diameter round ball, produced about 1000 fps, having ballistics very similar to a Civil War-era .44 cap & ball revolver. These tiny smoothbore guns were well liked in their era and took small game cleanly within 20 yards or so, but were not effective very much farther.

Common .44 shot cartridges of the period used the “Long” (1.305”) .44-40 case with over shot card and roll crimp; or alternately, a shot-filled paper or wooden capsule with profile resembling a bulleted cartridge, in a standard .44-40 case, so that cartridges could be used in either break-opens, repeaters or revolvers. The .44 “Extra Long” used a roll-crimped, extended case with over-shot card or rounded rosette crimp, to hold more shot. Its 2-inch overall length precluded its use in revolvers or repeaters. It was intended for use in break-open guns only.

Bob Sears wrote in the May 1981 American Rifleman that the first .410 shot shells were loaded in paper-tubed cases which had originated in Europe as the 12 mm gas cartridge. The barrel of my pre-WW1 H&R .410 I got from Nick Croyle in a trade (which became the platform for my .32 S&W Long Bunny Gun) is marked “.410-12 mm.” The 12 mm (.472”) dimension refers to the diameter of the .410 chamber, not its bore or choke diameter. Some barrels were marked “.410-12mm choke,” indicating that the gun had a choked barrel, but not all choked barrels were so plainly identified, which I found out the hard way one day”¦. Shooting an oversize ball through a choked .410 will burst the barrel!

Details on that exciting experience later”¦.

The 12 mm gas case was 50 mm, nominally two inches long, loaded with 10 grams (between 1/3 and 3/8 ounce) of shot. Two-inch .410 chambers accepted either .410 paper-cased or the various .44 shot cartridges then common and some barrels were marked “.410-.44” to exploit this versatility, which soon drove .44 shotguns from the market, especially after introduction of the 1/2oz., 2-1/2” .410 shell. Production of .44 shotguns ceased after WWI, being replaced almost entirely by the 1920s with .410s.

Frank Marshall told me how he used to shoot .44-40 round balls in a .410, so of course I had to try it. I made some up rounds using cast balls which I already had for a .44 Remington cap & ball revolver, with 5 grains of Bullseye which Frank suggested. These were great fun as 50 foot can plinkers. I shot several hundred of them over several years until one day I came across a ball I had cast of something of other than soft pure lead, which had evidently age-hardened and refused to go through the full choke.

Upon firing, the gun made a funny sound and actually recoiled FORWARD! I looked at the muzzle and found it had split about 3” behind the muzzle, spreading open like the hood of a cobra! A few passes with a tubing cutter removed the split muzzle end, producing an Official Boy Scout neckerchief slide I presented later to a Hunter Safety Instructor “from the NRA.” We carefully inspected and slugged the remaining barrel behind the cutoff, the bore ahead of the forcing cone being verified a true .424” cylinder.

“Now youhave got a real .44 Shotgun me Boy~!”, said Frank, imitating the famous actor Robert Newton as Captain Long John Silver in Treasure Island! A new front bead was installed, the muzzle recrowned and I was back in business with a 20” cylinder bore snake gun I still have.

While .410 chambers accept .44 shot cartridges, the .410 case is cylindrical. The .44 Shot, “5-in-1 Blank” cases from Starline which I use to load .44 shot are tapered so they will fit in anything from a .38-40 to .45 Colt or even a .45 ACP Blackhawk! Upon firing, the mouths of .44 cases expand grossly to fill the .410 chamber walls. Because of risk of case body splits, firing .44 Shot in .410 chambers is discouraged today and not recommended.

However, in my experience the Starline “5 in 1 Blank” cases work fine for loading shot in REVOLVERS using MILD charges. I emphasize light loads because these cases have an oversized 1/8” flash hole intended to prevent them from backing out and freezing cylinder rotation against the recoil shield of revolvers when firing blanks. Using large flash-hole cases in loads exceeding black powder pressure is hazardous, due to risk of blown primers. They work fine with standard .44-40 or .45 Colt charges as long as the shot load is much lighter than a standard bullet for the caliber, 1/3 oz. is about 150 grains, vs. a 200-grain bullet in .44-40 or 250 grains in .45 Colt. It is OK to use 5-6 grains of Bullseye or similar powders, but no more. I load a Federal .410 shotcup cut flush to the case mouth, 1/3 oz. of No.9 shot, and a Walters .36 card wad glued over the shot.

Speer produces shot capsules for loading in .44 Magnum or .44 Special brass. These hold the same 1/3 oz. payload as the old .44 shot cartridges. Speer capsules are two-piece, consisting of a rigid blue plastic shot container which breaks apart upon firing and a soft plastic base obturator which plugs the open end of the capsule, retaining the shot inside and upon ignition serving double-duty as the over-powder wad.

The effective range of .44 shot is limited to about 20 yards at best. No. 8 shot was used in early .44 shot loads, and is the largest which makes any sense in the .44 shot load. Loading shot larger than No. 8 is impractical, because with larger sizes patterns become ineffective, due to low pellet count. Successful hunting of edible small game such as squirrels, rabbit, woodcock, quail or grouse at woods range, requires about 150 shot in the pattern to reduce cripples from game escaping through thin patterns produced from a revolver or cylinder bore gun. No. 9 shot has 585 pellets to the ounce, so 1/3 ounce is 195 pellets. No. 8-1/2 shot are 497 to the ounce, reducing the pellet count of 1/3 ounce to 165 pellets. No. 8s are 410 to the ounce, so 1/3 ounce has only 136 pellets. No. 7-1/2s are 350 to the ounce, so 1/3 ounce has only 116 pellets. The trend being illustrated should now be obvious!

Speer capsules come in boxes of 50 each. Fast-burning pistol or shotgun powders work best. Suitable charges for shot loads approximate those of “Cowboy Loads” and standard weight bullets in the respective caliber. To load, fill a shot capsule with fine shot, of No. 8 or smaller, insert the base plug, and load the shot assembly into a charged, primed case, crimping it in securely place. The payload of 1/3 ounce or 145 grains of shot in the assembled capsule provides a total projectile weight of 155-158 grains. Speer capsules fit friction-tight in cases, being held sufficiently in place as long as cartridges are not handled very much. But for pocket carry, crimping is highly recommended!

Speer load data suggested for loading shot capsules in the .44 Special is quite safe to use in the .44-40 because it has greater case volume, lowering pressure and velocity slightly, but not enough to impair performance. Speer cautions that the base plug of the shot capsule requires internal support of the case wall to keep it from falling out. The inside diameter of .44-40 brass enlarges towards the base, risking spilling shot into the powder, unless the plug is either glued in place, or a .44 Special / Magnum size die is used to set back the shoulder of .44-40 cases to a level below the seated plug in the base of the capsule, to adequately support the capsule plug in the assembled cartridge.

I have often thought a combination “shot or ball” walking gun could serve as a useful alternative to my “Bunny Rifle” for bringing home the occasional “foraged, feathered feast” which eats much better than rabbit! Having fooled both .44-40 ball and .410 slugs in my smoothbore .410, as well as trying various .45 Colt/.410 combinations, I wasn't entirely happy with either shot patterns or the accuracy of bulleted ammunition fired from them.

My experience has been that bullet jump exceeding bullet diameter by several times is always highly detrimental to accuracy. I wanted a walking rifle to be capable of making head shots on small game more easily than firing the same ammunition from my revolver. Inch groups from the bench with iron sights at 25 yards are the goal. Groups slightly exceeding 2 inches are adequate for a trail revolver, but not for a dedicated small game rifle. Ball or slugs fired in a smoothbore .410 group no better than 2” at 25 yards at their very best, in my experience. Rifled barrels give better groups, but patchy shot patterns which are ineffective beyond snake ranges which are close enough you could just as easily fire a bullet to decapitate the rattler!.

So, is the concept of one cartridge gun useable with either shot or ball a hopeless fantasy?

In brushy Eastern woods cylinder bore skeet patterns are useful to about 15 yards where typical small game fare is reduced to feather or fur burgers by the usual too-tightly- choked .410, which is much better suited to shooting wood pigeon out of tall trees in Tuscany. Firing shot through any rifled bore produces patchy, ineffective short range patterns. Jumping bullets in .45/.410 or .44/.410 chambers and also attempting to fire shot in their rifled barrels curses you with the worst outcomes possible from both worlds.

When developing .45 ACP shot loads back in the 1970s, I found that using a .410 shot cup, significantly smaller than the bore diameter of the rifled .45 barrel, to contain the shot, did not engage the rifling, and even patterns with fine shot payload from an M1911 pistol, which were adequate to take rabbits or quail to 25 feet or so or break skeet targets from the close stations.

I surmised that similarly shooting .44 Speer shot cups through a .45 barrel should produce similar results, and could done by using a properly dimensioned chamber which would provide good accuracy with normal .45 handgun loads.
At the time I was experimenting with the shorter .45 “Cowboy Special ” brass in the .45 Colt. I was disappointed in the accuracy I was getting, compared to firing .45 Colt or .45 Schofield loads in my Ruger Blackhawk and Colt New Service revolvers. Firing .45 Colt ammunition, the best loads in the Ruger grouped 1-1/2” at 25 yards and in the Colt New Service slightly over 2 inches. Schofield loads were less accurate, but still acceptable, 2-1/2 inches in the Ruger and 3 inches in the Colt. Loads assembled in .45 Cowboy brass and shot in the .45 Colt cylinder exceeded 4 inches at 25 yards from the revolvers and no better than 4 inches at 50 yards when fired from a rifle. OK for shooting big steel targets up close, but no good for the field.

I found out later, after lapping the ball seats in my Ruger .45 ACP cylinder, to break a sharp wire edge turned up by the chambering reamer, at the shoulder where the case mouths headspace, that I could use the .45 Cowboy Special brass in the ACP cylinder with normal accuracy, using bullets which “fit” cylinder throats properly, in suitable loads. This reinforced the idea that a .45 rimmed case had shot or ball potential in a chamber optimized for it.

The .45 Cowboy Special uses a .45 ACP case draw of .895 inch length, but with a .45 Colt head turn, producing a .512” diameter rim 0.060” thick. It should be possible to cut a .45 ACP chamber with a rim seat to accept either .44-40 brass for shot, or .45 Cowboy Special brass for bullets, as the critical dimensions where they matter, are close.

The rim diameter of the .38-40 and .44-40 is .525” vs. .512” for the .45 Colt and .520” for the Schofield. Rim thickness is 0.065” vs. .060” for the .45 Colt. The slightly larger rim seat and headspace dimension of .38-40 or .44-40 vs the .45 Colt or Schofield dimensions is not serious enough to cause any difficulty.

Comparing .38-40 and .44-40 chambers with the .45 ACP is interesting. The base-to-shoulder lengths of the .38-40 and .44-40 are .922 and .927”, respectively. Their shoulder diameters at are .454 and .457”, respectively. Shoulder angles are 6 degrees, 48 minutes, and 4 degrees, respectively. The headspace dimension for .45 ACP is .898”, with a mouth diameter of .473”.

I brainstormed taking a Green Mountain .45 pistol blank of .442” bore and .452” groove with 16” twist of rifling and having John Taylor rough the chamber using his .38-40 reamer, with a .45 pilot, so that its .418” neck diameter would not cut into the bore diameter of the .45 ACP blank, using only the back half of the reamer. This would provide a rim seat for .45 Cowboy brass, and a .454” diameter ball seat .024” long with 6 degree, 48 minute forcing cone after a A standard .45 ACP reamer was used to finish-cut the .45 ACP chamber body, including a stop surface for rimless cases to headspace on their cases mouth. My .45 Game Getter Gun!

The above concept gun is currently a work in progress as we speak”¦. So stay tuned!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 04 December 2013

geeze ed .. asking us to edit your work is like asking us to touch up the Mona Lisa with a rattle-can of Rustoleum ...

ken

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Ed Harris posted this 04 December 2013

Ken Campbell, Iowa wrote: geeze ed .. asking us to edit your work is like asking us to touch up the Mona Lisa with a rattle-can of Rustoleum ...ken

You are welcome.

Typos that spell check doesn't catch, obvious gramatical and syntax errors due to my tunnel vision having read this too much.

Fresh eyes!

But most hopefully, shared anecdotes and experiences we can work in to pick nits, plug any holes and enhance things, making this a “team” effort.

You guys helped me on the .45 Colt / Schofield and .32 Bunnygun threads. This is no different.

Somebody here has also fooled with ball loads in a .44 or .410. So let's hear about it, the Good, the Bad AND the Ugly!

BTW, this is what happened when you fire a .44 Magnum in a .410!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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delmarskid1 posted this 04 December 2013

A few years ago I had an H&R light rifle barreled 12 ga. I got a bug to shoot round balls over black powder in it after reading Mr. Alexanders articles on the 20 ga. and an article in rifle magazine about paradox guns. So here is what ended up working for me. My gun had a 3” chamber so I bought uncrimped hulls for the 3.5” 12 ga. and trimmed them to forcing cone length with a wood dowel insert and a tubing cutter. Winchester 209 primers, 5g R7, 80 g FFF, one nitro card wad, 3 .5” fiber wads, one .735” Lyman cast round ball of dead soft lead finger loaded. This mess made 2 to 3 inch groups to point of aim at 50 yards and 6” at 100 yards. At 100 they dropped almost 18” I used no lubes and no blow tubes. I could shoot the thing for as long as my nerve held out and the accuracy stayed about the same. It kicked a lot! Picture a 5 pound Brown Bess. When the balls hit the back stop it sounded like someone catching a fast ball. I never shot a deer with it as my nieces husband talked me out of it to hunt with. This fellow was then so inconsiderate as to over dose on pain meds and who knows where it went. I shot this a lot and will do it again if I find another one.

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Ed Harris posted this 04 December 2013

I would sure like proven 20- and 12-ga. roundball loads which work, in which you could drop the ball into a plastic shot cup, perhaps with a fiber filler wad under it to take up the space, which could be loaded with common pistol powder like Bullseye, which would feed in a Winchester Model 12 pump gun and safely transition though a choked bore. 4-5” groups at 40 yards looking down a bead sighted plain barrel would be glorious, and a subsonic velocity with mild recoil would be a big plus.

Anybody got recipes?

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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John Alexander posted this 05 December 2013

Ed,

I don't know about “proven” and my loads were for a 20 gage rifled barrel so wouldn't meet one of your requirements but I played with a .575” ball (that should go through most chokes) in a shot cup and normal length and crimped shells. This was about twice as accurate as your requirement but I never tried it in a smooth bore. The load is described in Fouling Shot #178. The .575” was the only mold I had in this size range and too small for normal shot cups. BPI “Steel” shot cups which were thicker and took up some of the slack. I brought the ball up to the right length to crimp with 28 gage fiber wads which fit in the shot cups. With 26 gr. of Blue Dot it averaged about 3.5 inches at 50 yards.

I didn't work with it much because the .635” ball load would shoot 2.1” groups at 50 yards and would make a bigger hole in a deer.

Mustafa Curtess has gotten good results with round balls in choked barrels and it might be useful to write him.

John

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Shadowdog posted this 05 December 2013

Ed, I've only been experimenting with 12ga. ball loads for about a year now and the successful loads have been with my Ithaca M-37 Magnum Model using an older smoothbore Deer Slayer barrel. These smoothbore Deer Slayer barrels are straight bored at .700” so your mileage may vary using something else with a .730” bore and a choke. Using a LEE .69 round ball, (cause they're cheap and make a darn nice ball) I've found the key to success in the Ithaca is using BPI Light Brush wads rather than a shot cup for these large balls. My best load to date is also a buck and ball load to boot. It's easy on the shoulder, easy to assemble, accurate, and fun. My guess is, it's around 1,100-1,200 fps. I simply substituted an equal weight of buck and ball components for field load recipe I found in the Lyman manual.

Remington STS, or equal hull.

Winchester 209 primer.

23gr. of Unique

BPI Light Brush wad, (they're short double ended cupped wads with no petals, I'll try and post a pic).

I nest 3 LEE .31 round balls in the wad, then add the .69 ball, (some adjustment to the column may be nessary with card or felt wads) fold crimp and shoot.

This load gives me constant groups with the .69 ball of right around 2” at 50yds with my Ithaca. The buck shot spread is 30” + with about half hitting a man size target at that range of 5 shots fired.

My goal was to duplicate the old U.S. musket load in a modern 12ga. shotgun for home defense. Since developing these rounds, I've gotten a 20” cylinder bore barrel, (standard .730” bore) for the '37 but haven't the time to test them for accuracy as yet.

In testing components I've found the LEE .69 ball NOT a good combination with a shot cup, a .65-.67 ball would most likely work much better if you use a shot cup.

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Shadowdog posted this 05 December 2013

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tturner53 posted this 05 December 2013

So firing a .44 Mag. in a .410 is a bad idea? Never thought of it but you know I have to check this out. Reduced load maybe? EDIT; I'm thinking out loud here, I will not fire a .44 Mag. in a .410 shotgun. I did have to see how it fits, then went on to try a empty .444 Marlin case. This rings a bell, I doubt I discovered it first, but a .444 fits in my old Stevens .410-12mm single shot pretty good.

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Ed Harris posted this 05 December 2013

The .444 Marlin cases work fine in a 2-1/2” .410 with Federal 1/2 oz. shot cup 13.5 grs. of #2400 and large pistol primer, Walters .38 card wad pressed in the case mouth, taper crimp holding case mouth in press against beveled leade-in of Lee .44 bullet sizer and bumping the ram handle a few times with a rubber mallet until you develop a feel for it. Rotate case 1/3 of a turn with each whack, and with practice it will look like a factory job. Here is a pic of my .44/.45 shot assembled in 5 in 1 Blank cases for my .45 revolver. Case at far right is after firing in .45 ACP Ruger Blackhawk.

At left are Speer .38 and a .45 capsule assembled in Schofield case.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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mckg posted this 05 December 2013

The .424 measurement is interesting, as original 44-40 seemed to use that diameter of bullets.

I would say it is now an unfortunate coincidence and shooters should be warned not to consider the rounds somehow interchangeable (It seems that they will not understand the simple warning that a choke is a critical diameter in a shotgun).

Just to throw some unknown liquid on the fire, i just noticed that COTW says that “Interestingly, it is possible to fire .410-bore shells in 45/70-chambered rifles"...

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mckg posted this 05 December 2013

tturner53 wrote: So firing a .44 Mag. in a .410 is a bad idea? Never thought of it but you know I have to check this out. Reduced load maybe? EDIT; I'm thinking out loud here, I will not fire a .44 Mag. in a .410 shotgun. I did have to see how it fits, then went on to try a empty .444 Marlin case. This rings a bell, I doubt I discovered it first, but a .444 fits in my old Stevens .410-12mm single shot pretty good. Google “450 Mongo". It is an attempt to improve on the 45Colt/410 chambers accuracy with bullets; the 9.3x74 is quoted as being an even better choice (as long as availability is overlooked :)) .

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mckg posted this 05 December 2013

Shadowdog, have you tried “flat” wads for balls (no petals or cup)? I'm looking into replacing common shot with buckshot or balls (I will also start an independent thread about that).

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Shadowdog posted this 05 December 2013

mckg wrote: Shadowdog, have you tried “flat” wads for balls (no petals or cup)? I'm looking into replacing common shot with buckshot or balls (I will also start an independent thread about that).

I've not tried it yet, but do have some cardboard gas seals and felt wads to try. It should work at very least as well as a shot cup.

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mckg posted this 05 December 2013

Shadowdog wrote: I've not tried it yet, but do have some cardboard gas seals and felt wads to try. It should work at very least as well as a shot cup. Thank you! Keep us posted :).

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Shadowdog posted this 06 December 2013

One thing I'll mention to save some time, components, and frustration. Cut a few “model” hulls for each hull type you're using. Slice the hull twice vertically from top to about 2/3 the way down and remove about 1/3 of the circumference to see exactly how your load column stacks up. It's very easy to replace or adjust components that way to get a good crimp. I do the same with the neck and shoulder area of bottle neck rifle cartridges so I don't seat too deep and to where the lead portion of my cast bullet is below the neck, subject to the hot gas when fired,(maybe it doesn't matter, but the gas check is there to protect the lead from hot gas, so I let it do it's job).

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billw_willy posted this 15 January 2016

Lyman 0.662” round ball, WW alloy, in shot cups works OK in my Win '97 smooth bore to 25 yd paper targets, not worth mentioning at 50 yds. My powder charges were 16.0-18.0 gr of Red Dot enough to be dangerous at 25 yds. I did not shoot any heavier charges of slower powders.

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