New with a few questions

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  • Last Post 21 November 2013
mp11 posted this 18 November 2013

OK guys, I've been reloading for a few months now, but recently toying with the idea of casting bullets. The calibers I would start out with are 9mm and possibly 44. I've been watching a few videos and doing some reading. I've noticed some people say sizing is necessary, and some say it isn't. So here are a few questions I have right now. 1-How do I know if I need to resize my new lead bullets, if I use for example a Lee 6 cavity mold? When do I know I need to resize? 2-What type of wax is recommended for fluxing, and how much do I use? Is any candle wax OK? 3-When do I need to worry about using gas checks? 4- resources for lead?

Thanks

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DEADARROW posted this 18 November 2013

I've been hitting local tire shops for wheel weights. Bring a bucket and know the current price of scrap lead in your area. Here in Minneapolis I offer $20 bucks for a full 5 gal bucket full. Your going to get some that you can't use such as zinc and steel. As far as fluxing goes, I just keep fluxing till it looks clean. Not to worry because your going to flux again when you melt in your casting pot. As far as sizing that is something I have yet to learn.

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onondaga posted this 18 November 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=7870>mp11

1 an expert caster can control bullet diameter with alloy selection and casting method about +- .002". There is a lot to learning that however. You recognize the need for bullet size by the fit of your unsized bullets. For your .44 or revolvers in general an unlubed bullet should need a 1-2 pound push with a pencil to get it through the cylinder chamber. Cast or size your bullets for that size. You need a good micrometer to measure bullet diameter and determine how much sizing bullets need to fit. Learn chamber casting and bore slugging for a reference of where to start with bullet size before you buy any molds, Bolt Rifle bullets and semi auto bullets should fit the chamber throat with a feelable slide and be easy to chamber, no smaller.

2 It is the carbon from burning petroleum that acts as a flux, not the particular type of oil or wax. Powdered charcoal or pine sawdust is a easy to get top quality flux. Some casters are very successful using only a wooden paint stir stick that chars when stirring as a flux. The quantity of flux is only determined by understanding what fluxing actually does and that is a long story. I use a tablespoon of sawdust in a 20 pound pot. If that doesn't clean the surface when I stir and skim, I do it again. Pot temp is important too. A simple reference is that the metal should be hot enough to instantly char black and ignite a tightly rolled newspaper wand or the metal is NOT hot enough to be fluxed yet.

3 Gas checks are used to extend the pressure range of a particular alloy. They do little else. Use an alloy matched to your load level and you don't need gas checks at all. Undersized gas checked bullets lead the bore just as bad as undersized plain based bullets do.  My best recommendation on learning the relation of load pressure to alloy selection is  Modern Reloading, Second Edition, Richard Lee, Chapter 10 and related chapters.

4 I mine the berm at my club, get Linotype scrap and can use a Lee Hardness Test Kit to get any practical hardness of bullet alloy. For hunting and match shooting I get certified alloys from RotoMetals. Some scraps are very pure like plumbers lead and roof sheeting and can be mixed with pure tin to formulas like 20:1 etc. The hardness tester is an essential tool for sound alloy mixing and testing for the serious cast bullet shooter.

Others will disagree but I believe the 9mm is a very difficult caliber to start casting and recommend you start with your 44.  There are many fewer variables to getting a .44  shooting cast well than a 9mm semi-auto. Get really good with the .44 first then try the 9mm. The 9mm has frustrated a lot of beginners to the point of quitting.

If you get bullets are hitting all over the place and you draw a mental blank on how to fix things, take your revolver to an excellent pistol smith. Ask him to measure your cylinders smallest  diameter area that sizes cast bullets as you fire and your cast bullets should be .0005 to .001” larger than his measurement for the 1-2 pound push fit I described for your revolver. Cast bullet .44 pistol groups fired from a rest should be 2” or less at 50 yards with a moderate load, the right bullet fit and alloy or you are doing it wrong. It is easy to get better accuracy than factory ammo with a good cast load  in your .44 if you do it right. Gary

P.S. one specific question at a time will get you the most answers here in general.

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mp11 posted this 19 November 2013

OK thanks for the input. Clearly, I have a lot to learn, about casting and about using lead in general. Like how do I know what lead to get, or is the lead I have pure or alloyed? If I find lead at a local scrapyard, how do I know if its acceptable “as is” for casting? So can this Lee Hardness Test Kit tell me what I need to know as far as “do I have pure lead or alloy?” Can I assume the more alloy in lead, the harder it is?

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onondaga posted this 19 November 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=7870>mp11

Pure lead will test 4-6 BHN with the hardness tester and any alloy that tests 4-6 BHN can certainly be treated as pure lead for mixing or shooting purposes when pure lead is called for.

There is a wide variety of trace elements that are found in scrap metals but the hardness as measured is more important than the knowledge of exactly what trace elements are causing a specific hardness of  a scrap batch.

Cooling rate also dramatically effects test results. If you drop hot ingots or hot bullets into cold water,  the BHN can be raised very significantly if the alloy has even trace amounts of the commonly used Antimony or Arsenic used for hardening Lead alloys.. It is much more consistent to pour alloy into molds that are 100 degrees F.  cooler than the flow point of the alloy and then dump bullets onto a dry towel and allow the bullets to cool of their accord before you inspect or test them.

Gary

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delmarskid1 posted this 19 November 2013

A lot can be surmised about the hardness of lead ingots by the sound they make when you tap them together. This isn't sure fire but it's a place to start. If two ingots are from the same batch and they kind of “clunk” then they are soft and will be good for low speed bullets and the like. If they have a bit of a “ring” they will be harder. I shot cast for a long time testing bullets by poking them with a screw driver. I know the guys on this forum are laughing up their ladles by now because they did it or do it too. Hardness testers and thermometers are great tools. I use mine. But if a fellow wants to shoot and not spend much money he can get by. I put a gas check on bullets going much over 1100 fps by the lading data that I'm using (I killed my chronograph with a 16 ga. slug). Soft lead will work fine without a gas check at speeds uner1100fps if they aren't too small. It's probably the best in my experience. Bullets that are too big will almost always give less problems than bullets that are too small. You need something to at least gauge the diameters of your bullets. Even a crescent wrench set to a known diameter is better than nothing. A 5/16” drill makes about .312” This is some real back yard stuff but it can be more fun for some people who just like to be cheap! The .44 mag is a peach for cast bullets. They will lead like you would not believe if driven too fast with lino or wheel weights when cast too small.  I know almost nothing for myself about cast bullets in the 9mm.  If a loaded round will chamber and it's not driven too fast it will most likely shoot well enough to keep you interested. 

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mp11 posted this 19 November 2013

Good advice guys. “the BHN can be raised very significantly if the alloy has even trace amounts of the commonly used Antimony or Arsenic used for hardening Lead alloys.." So this antimony, is something I would need to incorporate in the molten lead in order to get the BHN to achieve a proper hardness? I've watched several videos, where they rely mostly on quenching in ice water to increase hardness. If so, it would be a matter of choosing one or the other...both methods aren't necessary, right? ” Hardness testers and thermometers are great tools. I use mine. But if a fellow wants to shoot and not spend much money he can get by."

Well that's the point I was going to bring up. My position is not to be in competitions...I just want something for plinking...casual target shooting. At the same time , I value the info you guys are giving me, and I want to do it right. So if I'm understanding correctly...I can round up any scrap lead(wether alloyed or pure), if pure I need to add antimony to harden it. Am I somewhat on the right track?

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onondaga posted this 20 November 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=7870>mp11

1 - 2% Antimony is all that is needed for significant results when quench hardening bullet alloys. Bullet makers rarely buy pure antimony to alloy into lead as Antimony is very slow to alloy into lead and can be pretty wasteful when trying unless you are an expert metallurgist.

The most common way of getting Antimony into bullet alloy is to mix an Antimony rich alloy with what you have. Good sources of Antimony are: 1) Magnum Bird-shot is 2-6% Antimony 2) Antimonial Lead is 4-6% Antimony 3) Hardball pistol alloy is 6% Antimony 4) Linotype alloy is 12% Antimony 5) Superhard Alloy is  30% Antimony

I get that stuff at:  http://www.rotometals.com/Bullet-Casting-Alloys-s/5.htm>http://www.rotometals.com/Bullet-Casting-Alloys-s/5.htm And I get Linotype scrap and range scrap locally. I avoid wheel weight scrap completely due to the very common contamination with Zinc and steel.

My use of lead etc. is pretty typical for a diehard caster. I cast and shoot about 100 lbs of bullets a year. I use pure lead for muzzle loader balls and slugs. I use a Lyman clone #2 alloy mixed from range scrap and Linotype scrap for recreational shooting and I use a certified Lyman #2 alloy for rifle hunting. My local range scrap that I collect averages BHN 7.5 and is marginally soft enough for Muzzle Loading stuff, shotgun slug and Buck Shot making and light pressure pistol loads.

My Clone #2 alloy is 6 parts club range scrap and 4 parts Linotype scrap and typically tests BHN 14-15 at ten days after casting bullets that have been air cooled only.

Gary

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delmarskid1 posted this 20 November 2013

When I started I got a coffee can of wheel weights from a salvage yard. I melted them on the gas stove in an old pot. I used a bent spoon for a ladle. I had a used 10 dollar mold and a pound of red dot. I did spring for gas checks and the old Lee push through sizing die. In about a half hour of blasphemous self instruction I was making bullets that look as well as the ones I make now almost 30 years later. In short, IT'S PRETTY EASY!

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mp11 posted this 20 November 2013

Thanks for the great info Onondaga. Now that's something I can relate to. I noticed Rotometals has Antimony, but requires 1100 degrees to melt? They also show a super hard alloy at 750 deg. Or should I go with Lyman #2? It's still a bit confusing. Like for example, if I get the #2 ingot, what portion of that do I add to say...20 lbs of melted lead? Thanks.

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mp11 posted this 20 November 2013

delmarskid1 wrote: When I started I got a coffee can of wheel weights from a salvage yard. I melted them on the gas stove in an old pot. I used a bent spoon for a ladle. I had a used 10 dollar mold and a pound of red dot. I did spring for gas checks and the old Lee push through sizing die. In about a half hour of blasphemous self instruction I was making bullets that look as well as the ones I make now almost 30 years later. In short, IT'S PRETTY EASY! Thanks Delmar, but sometimes it seems the more I read the more complex what I once thought was a simple hobby, turns out to be. ;)

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pat i posted this 20 November 2013

mp11 wrote: Thanks Delmar, but sometimes it seems the more I read the more complex what I once thought was a simple hobby, turns out to be. ;)

That's the first thing you have to get out of your head. If you can pour piss out of a boot without drenching yourself you can cast perfectly good bullets capable of good accuracy. Get a Lyman manual, scrounge up some wheel weights or range scrap, buy some gas checks and Unique powder, get a Lee push through die if you need it in a size that fits, and you'll get your feet under you with your .44 so you can start shooting. You can use one of the tumble lubes out there to save the expense of a lubesizer until you decide if you really want to cast bullets as a hobby. 

 It's not hard or complicated but does take a little thought once in a while. I think one of the biggest problems most new casters face is getting over the idea they have to run the everything balls to the wall and some of the forums promote it. Save the plain base bullets and high velocity for down the road when you're more comfortable. Find a low to moderate load with a gas checked bullet that fits and you'll have good results. With a revolver measure or slug the throats and size your bullet about .001 or so smaller so they're a slip fit or have a little resistance. I never cast for a 9mm, or any autoloader for that matter, so have no advise there.  

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norm posted this 21 November 2013

mp11, This cast bullet shooting can be as simple or as complicated as you want to make it. There are people on this site that are a lot more technical than I want to be. I cast mostly wheelweights or recovered lead from range berms. I seldom know what my bullet alloy contains but I've had a lot of fun doing it. I shoot mostly rifles and have had some success. I've competed in CBA matches, never won any nationals championship but I,ve gotten some trophies and ribbons and I,ve gotten deer,antelope and turkeys with cast bullets. Wheelweight do contain some antimony. Per centage will vary but bhn numbers will usually be 12-14 which should be plenty hard enough for your 9mm and 44. My experience with rifles is you don't need gas checks until you get past 1300-1400 fps muzzle velocity. In revolvers the cast bullet should be the same size as the cylinder throats. Ed Harris has written a lot about this. Research his posts. PM me if you want more details on my experiences. Norm

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Chargar posted this 21 November 2013

Some folks like to give fifty dollar answers to fifty cent questions. New folks need basic answers and not have the whole information overload. Folks don't need a tome on automobile technology to drive down the block to get a loaf of bread.

Basic bullet casting for handguns is pretty simple stuff.

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mp11 posted this 21 November 2013

Thanks for the replies guys. First let me say this, I have little doubt that I can learn to cast. I suppose it's a matter if which I choose, the very technical(right down to the letter)method...or something simpler. My biggest thing that has me confused right now is the alloying process. For example, I just acquired some lead fishing weights-some as big as 2-4 oz. Now these seem to be fairly hard is why I chose them. Would these be comparable to wheel weights as far as being able to cast as is? Don't know. Maybe someone here uses them. My question is, do I need a hardness tester to determine what alloy is needed such as Lyman #2 or should I just cast these babies? I'm not looking at competitions, just want plinking rounds and casual target shooting.

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delmarskid1 posted this 21 November 2013

Are the sinkers home made or store bought? Store sinkers are usually pretty soft. I have a friend who casts sinkers out of lino-type. Sometimes I cry in my hands when I think about it. I'd try the old thumb nail test. if the thumb nail makes a mark with out breaking the lead is soft. On another note I've used the Roto-metal antimony hard alloy and it works good. It doesn't make more than 20% or so in the pot to make good hard hand gun bullets. Do you have molds in mind? Gun shows can be a good place to pick up used molds.

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99 Strajght posted this 21 November 2013

Make a few bullets and see what happens with the lead you have. If you have a problem there will be a fix. The good part is that you can melt down any mistakes and make them again. Keep trying.

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onondaga posted this 21 November 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=7870>mp11

A novel but effective hardness test for bullet alloys is described here in a post by http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?3235-chasw>chasw over on another forum. The method uses a series of pencils. You test if they will either write on or scratch the alloy in question. Many have been successful and satisfied with this easy testing method:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?75455-Testing-hardness-with-pencils>http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?75455-Testing-hardness-with-pencils

Read the post with comments,  copy the pencil charts for reference and you will be an expert at hardness testing bullet alloy with this simple and practical method. A source for the correct pencil set at Walmart, Office Depot and other sources is also listed.

Gary

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Chargar posted this 21 November 2013

I cast and shot 1/2 million or better rounds through various handguns over a 30 year period without having a hardness tester.

I bought a SAECO tester 20 years ago, but it is far from an essential item.

There is a fairly wide range of alloy hardness that will work with handgun bullets. There are of course extremes that won't work well.

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mp11 posted this 21 November 2013

99 Strajght wrote: Make a few bullets and see what happens with the lead you have. If you have a problem there will be a fix. The good part is that you can melt down any mistakes and make them again. Keep trying. Good point.

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