The 38 Short Colt

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  • Last Post 23 October 2024
Aaron posted this 04 May 2024

Having a conversion cylinder for the Colt's 1851 Navy in "38 Special" I decided to ply my hand with 38 Short Colt cartridges with a heeled bullet and outside lubrication. I first cast some of the Eras Gone 38 Colt Cartridge Works .375" heeled bullets in pure lead. These are great bullets to use in a standard 1851 or 1861 Navy cylinder instead of the round ball normally used. At .375" in the 38 Short Colt, these will fit the barrel of the revolver nicely and are period correct for the 38 Short Colt bullet diameter and configuration.

Brass was procured from Starline along with some 38 Long Colt brass which I use with the Old West HBRN .358" bullet and not exceed the cylinder O.A.L. length restriction. I am well aware that 148gr HBWC bullets may be used in 38 Special brass, and be fired just fine in these cylinders. I wanted however, to make period correct ammunition to be used with these revolvers in their original bore size.

With gobs of Pyrodex-P powder on-hand from decades ago, I figured it would suffice in lieu of Black Powder. It smokes and stinks just fine and leaves your hands and clothes all black and stinky just like Holy Black. The .7cc Lee dipper delivers 8.4 grains of Pyrodex-P right to the base of the seated 127gr bullet. A crimp was applied to the cartridges with the Old West heeled bullet crimp die.

After crimping, the bullets were dip lubed with Paul Matthews Black Powder Premium Plus bullet lube. This ensures the Bison taking ballistic performance of this cartridge. OK, perhaps not Bison taking, but definitely whistle pig taking performance. Firing these little gems at the local range gets a lot of eye rolling from the younger crowd who have never heard of heeled bullets with outside lubricant. They are young enough now to NOT know of a 22LR cartridge having cut their little tactical teeth on 5.56 NATO and 9mm. I just avoid showing them paper patched bullets which would blow their little tactical minds. Shooting the 38 Short Colt with either Pyrodex-P or Holy Black smokes the range all to heck and their $4,000 dollar tactical optics can't seem to see through it. Well what do you know? Combat. Where it all goes to heck immediately after the first shot. Dust. Smoke. Noise. Well most of you know.

So, if you have a 38 Conversion Cylinder for your open top revolver, investigate shooting something other than 148gr HBWC bullets in the thing. Making smoke is a heck of a lot more fun and the 38 Short Colt and 38 Long Colt are no harder to load then a 38 Special. All the steps are the same, just use heeled bullets in the Short Colt.

Old West Web Site: HBRN Bullet Mold / Bullets / Heeled Bullet Crimp Tool
Eras Gone Bullet Molds

Shoot Safe!

 

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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linoww posted this 05 May 2024

Good report.I also get similar looks from the young guys when i'm out shooting my odd ball stuff. I have Boekel Swiss martini hunting rifle in 41 Swiss.I shoot with black powder. It also has a heel bullet and I load at the range.

Those guys are there with their super expensive tactical guns and i'm sitting there dipping blackpowder in the case using a  simple priming tool finger seating bullets.

I'm not sure but I think i'm having more fun than them.....

 

 

Where is the point of impact with that load compared to loading a ball in the cylinder?

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Aaron posted this 05 May 2024

At 15 yards, it"s right on the POI of the RB with 20gr of Pyrodex-P. Barn killing groups of 4". I wasn't trying real hard for groups.

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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linoww posted this 05 May 2024

I've only played with conversion cylinders and my Ruger Old Armies,they shoot much higher than the RB.Typically the rear sight cranked down is still 6" high at 25 yards. I played around a bit with different bullet weights and velocities but still not as close as I'd like.

 

Anyway, good news on that conversion cylinder of yours.

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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.22-10-45 posted this 05 May 2024

Old West made me a light hollow-base heel bullet for the .36 percussion conversions.  Bullet is short enough to use in the .38 long case.  I haven't tried black yet....1.5 to 2.0gr. Bullseye shoots about 5" high at 25yds. But groups in ragged hole from a 1972 era Colt 1851 Navy Colt with Kirk Konversion cyl.

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bill carson posted this 11 October 2024

I had some .375" rb laying around, and the cylinder throats were .373",  meaning the ball wouldnt fall thru.

Measured, then trimmed 38spcl cases to 1.1", loaded with smokeless ,with a thin wad from a playing card onto powder.

Just drop the balls in, followed by the primed loaded cases behind them. Like a breech loading muzzleloader,no mess .

Can keep them in the black on a nra 25yds target from rest.

Ive not tried blackpowder this way, but probably would need a wonder wad to prevent a chainfire.

but thats what the percussion cylinder is for anyway so why bother with that.

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Ed Harris posted this 11 October 2024

In use Accurate 37-149H with 3 grains of Bullseye for my Howell .38 Special conversion for the Pietta .36 New Model Navy.

 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Aaron posted this 11 October 2024

Dang Ed. I just ordered the mold. It's going to be a lot easier than the other bullets. That's just what I need. Another mold. I curse you. foot-in-mouth

 

 

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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Ed Harris posted this 11 October 2024

If your mold happens to cast a wee bit large to enter the chambers, the carbide sizing ring from a Lee .380 ACP Factory Crimp is .374".

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Aaron posted this 11 October 2024

Good to know Ed. Thanks.

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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bill carson posted this 13 October 2024

are you applying crimps to these or just thumb seating them?

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Ed Harris posted this 13 October 2024

I taper crimp mine using a 9mm taper crimp die. The heeled bullet also is accurate shooting .38 Special brass in .357 chambers.

The 47-259H is intended for the short .455 Mk2 brass by Fiocchi, Hornady or Starline to.reduce jump in the longer .455 Mk1 and .455 Colt-Eley chambers. Cast SOFT 1 to 30 tin-lead and load 3.5 grains of Bullseye. Also good in Schofield brass firing in 45 Colt chamber with 5 grains of Bullseye.

Use .45 ACP taper crimp.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Aaron posted this 13 October 2024

I don't know who your question is directed to so I'll answer too. I crimp with the Old West Heel Bullet Crimp Tool.

 

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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Bob Hatfield posted this 13 October 2024

Is the Long Colt brass too long to use the Eras Gone Colt cartridge works bullet?  This thread makes me want to revisit this project. I have the 51 Navy Pietta with a Kirst 38 LC cylinder.  Plenty of 38 Short Colt and Long Colt brass along with the Era's Gone bullet.  I tried the coated 140 grain heeled bullets from Bear Creek but am still trying to find accuracy with Black powder.  Smokeless with the Old west crimper and the heeled Bear Crk bullet resulted in blooper/squib sounding rounds.

I have used 148 gr. HBWC bullets over 3.5 grains of bullseye.  I know its overloaded but I seat the bullets out of the 38 special cases to where they are almost at the end of the cylinder.  Loads easier into the chambers.  Chronographs in the low to mid 700's still IIRC.

 

Bob

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Aaron posted this 13 October 2024

They work just fine BUT you do have to take a file to the point and with one pass, knock off just the tip. I have a photo somewhere which I will post. That's how I do the 38 Long Colt cartridges. I wrote this all up somewhere, possibly for the Fouling Shot.

 

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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Aaron posted this 13 October 2024

Found it. The article is in The Fouling Shot, Journal 280, Nov/Dec 2022

 

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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bill carson posted this 13 October 2024

good to know anyways, ive been loading .359" hbwc out to 1.460" length to shorten the jump, using a 357 die set on the special brass.

try as i may,the .357 seat roll crimp doesnt completely close leaving a .001" bulge,

so the crimp is .380/.381"  when i needed a .379" to chamber them .

and the Howell chambers are cut minimum spec [.380" nogo]. max is like .384". One friggin thousandth interference .

my solution was to run it up a .376" lee sizer to just kiss that crimp, and that did iron it out to .377, now they fall right in.

So this Ill do for those heel base guys. Might even shorten the brass to headpace off the front driving band,as this cylinders throats are .373"  .

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Aaron posted this 13 October 2024

Bill,

There are a million ways to make these work in 38 SC and 38 LC as well as........38 SPL. After many many permutations and ways to make it all work, I have settled on using the Old West 150gr HBRN bullet in all the cases. In the 38LC, crimp in the crimp groove. In the 38 SPL, seat over the front driving band and crimp there. That bullet shoots very well in all the cases. Velocity must be kept appropriate so as to expand the base, but not so high of pressure to blow the base off the bullet.

I bought the bullet mold of course, as well as the heeled bullet crimp tool if using the more historically accurate heeled bullet. Frankly, for pure shooting fun, the Old West bullet is wonderful. Easy Peasy.

 

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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Aaron posted this 23 October 2024

After Ed forced me to try the Accurate 37-149H mold with the heeled design, I am a happy camper. The mold was ordered over the weekend and shipped on Monday. Jeez that was fast!

Got to cast with it today and poured some 20:1 alloy into it. I was very pleased with the cast session and the mold performed beautifully. I got a few hand lubed and set them into some 38 Long Colt brass. I used the Old West crimp tool to get the case mouths closed down on the heel. The bullets chamber great!

I'll load up some 38 SC brass with some black powder and have a bunch of them to go as well. Man....I am very pleased with this mold and the resultant 38 LC cartridges. With 2gr of Trail Boss, I can shoot these all day in the 1851 Navy.

 

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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