Oddball AR's

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JohnForrest posted this 11 August 2021

45 Raptor...A couple of years ago after my first AR15 in 223, I decided I wanted a big blaster for Iowa deer hunting. We have that straight case business here and 350 legend really wasn't on my radar yet. Everyone had a 450 BM and I kind of wanted a 50 Beowolf to go with my 6.5 Grendel. Somehow I learned that Arne Brennen was involved with the Grendel and had later developed a .45 AR  to kind of "one up" the Beowolf. The thing I really liked about it was his position to not have any propriety  control over others using his development. The other thing it was a rebated 460 case for  a 308ar and not a AR15. That meant a little over 10,000 psi extra safety margin. 

This round was designed to shoot bullets up to 390 grains. I got a 16" barrel from Satern here in Iowa and everything was fine. But now I have the casting bug and Its time to figure out how big a bullet I want to try first and see how well I can get this AR to group. 

7.62x25...Shortly after getting a couple Tokarev pistols, I found a PPS43-C. (semi auto version of Russian tank troop machine gun) also chambered in the Tokarev round. Mags held 30 rounds, it was meant to be a machine gun, and surpluss was getting hard to find. My solution was to learn how to cast. Lucky for me Starline was making new brass and my dad was a plumber with a lead pot. That casting thing was kind of fun so I got molds for all my pistols.

Wasn't long I got the AR bug back and the logical thing for me at the time was build a Tokarev AR. I found Ron Williams in Florida that was making barrels and mag adaptors for my PPS-43 mags and I was off to the races.

Pistol length gas system and 308 buffer, shoots like 22 mag. 

So my question to CBA guys is, what should I try to get this AR shooting straighter? I have noticed 110 speer HP shoot 1/2 sized groups of my blaster cast loads. Not sure how much longer bullet I could use without pushing bullet back into the case a little.

Maybe a few of you have played with these rounds?

 

John

 

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 11 August 2021

sounds like fun ...

is your oal seating limited by the magazine ?

there are only 2 or 3 rules for cast accuracy.

  • check that you are in the ballpark of bullet length versus rifling twist at your velocity.
  • everything important happens in the first inch of bullet travel.  maybe the first half-inch.
  • the more support for the bullet in the throat the better.  a wad cutter is ideal, except it MIGHT not feed and MIGHT get goofy aerodynamically some distance down range.

*****************************

there might be some more rules but none of them seem to work twice in a row, or when you need them to obey your wishes.

oh ... a cast group only twice as big as gold dots ain't that bad  cool   ...

ken

 

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JohnForrest posted this 11 August 2021

Well for anything I want a quick follow up shot for I better stick with mag length , but sitting here thinking about it, I could go longer for target performance and bragging rights.. I have a 300 BO AR pistol that has a side charging handle and no gas system. It's almost easier loading one cartridge at a time.

The 45 Raptor was supposed to be better at feeding hollow points and hunting bullets. It has the feed ramp built into the mag. I've had mixed results with that. Maybe I'll look for a nice semi wadcutter mold about .453. That should be available somewhere.

I think I have a 1-20 twist for my 45. 16" barrel, so might have to deal with what's available vs what I really want.

Thanks for the advice Ken 

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MP1886 posted this 11 August 2021

Well for anything I want a quick follow up shot for I better stick with mag length , but sitting here thinking about it, I could go longer for target performance and bragging rights.. I have a 300 BO AR pistol that has a side charging handle and no gas system. It's almost easier loading one cartridge at a time.

The 45 Raptor was supposed to be better at feeding hollow points and hunting bullets. It has the feed ramp built into the mag. I've had mixed results with that. Maybe I'll look for a nice semi wadcutter mold about .453. That should be available somewhere.

I think I have a 1-20 twist for my 45. 16" barrel, so might have to deal with what's available vs what I really want.

Thanks for the advice Ken 

 

John you need to talk to 45 2.1 here on this forum as he has a 45 Raptor which I built for him and he also has a cast bullet that he designed that shoots very well in it. The bullet was actually designed  for a Ruger revolver and is a heavy bullet.  I know this because I wasn't having any success shooting cast out of my 450 Bushmaster Ruger Ranger and he suggested the bullet mold I just spoke about.  He was right, I can get it up to good velocity with good accuracy.  You might pm him here and ask him about it.

Arne Brennen is a personal friend of mine and I know the whole history of the 6.5 Grendel and Arne's whole line of Raptor cartridges.  Arne had asked me for some ideas on the 460 Raptor.  If there is anything you would like to discuss along this line just pm me as I don't wish to air this on a public forum.

One more note. The 350 Legend is one heck of a good cartridge although it got off to a bad start. I have one and really like it.  I actually call it my 35 Remington AR15

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JohnForrest posted this 11 August 2021

Thanks MP, I only know what is public about the whole deal.

It's good to know someone has blazed a trail for me. I haven't fiddled with my Raptor near as much as I should. My brother in law has a 460 pistol and it's a wrist killer with his cast reloads, no fun at all.  Big and slow with 10lb AR should be much more comfortable to shoot.

What twist rate would you suggest for a new 35 Remington AR? and ideal barrel length?   

John

 

 

 

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MP1886 posted this 11 August 2021

Thanks MP, I only know what is public about the whole deal.

It's good to know someone has blazed a trail for me. I haven't fiddled with my Raptor near as much as I should. My brother in law has a 460 pistol and it's a wrist killer with his cast reloads, no fun at all.  Big and slow with 10lb AR should be much more comfortable to shoot.

What twist rate would you suggest for a new 35 Remington AR? and ideal barrel length?   

John

 

My best friend has a 460 S&W with the longer barrel, I believe 8 inch?  I shot it with full hilt jacketed loads and  I thought it was going to wreck my wrist, but it didn't. I thought it was quite pleasant to shoot. His had the factory muzzle break on it and  the factory grips were wood and rubber and soaked up the recoil nice. Shooting 45 Colts out of it was just a little bit more recoil then 38 Specials.  

The standard 1 in 16 inch twist in the 350 Legend seems to do just fine. I've shot up to 220 grain cast in it and it did very well.  I call it my 35 Remington AR15 because I'm using a bullet that 45 2.1 designed for the 35 Remington.  In hollow point it's 217 grain and in solid form about 225.  I also shoot the LEE 200 grain bullet also meant for the 35 Remington.  My rifle seems to like Accurate 1680 powder. 

 

 

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45 2.1 posted this 11 August 2021

45 Raptor.. This round was designed to shoot bullets up to 390 grains. I got a 16" barrel from Satern here in Iowa and everything was fine. But now I have the casting bug and Its time to figure out how big a bullet I want to try first and see how well I can get this AR to group. 

Maybe a few of you have played with these rounds? 

John

I have the 45 Raptor on the AR 10 with the Saturn barrel. I use the MP Molds "45 Ruger Only" bullet (mentioned above) weighing about 300 grains in GC configuration in it. I also use the large HP pin. That particular bullet feeds and shoots very well in it with WW296 powering it for about 2,200 fps. It has accounted for quite a few varmints around the house. 

  

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JohnForrest posted this 11 August 2021

 Thanks for the info Bob,

Looks like I might have to wait a bit on that MP mold. Not sure where you live but  but it must be a serious place if your using 45 Raptor on "varmints" 

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MP1886 posted this 11 August 2021

 Thanks for the info Bob,

Looks like I might have to wait a bit on that MP mold. Not sure where you live but  but it must be a serious place if your using 45 Raptor on "varmints" 

 

You have that right John, some very serious varmints.  As I said I built that AR for him and of course I had to test it out.  Arnie Brennen wanted to know what I thought.  I said "The freaking is a cannon!!! Like a 105 howitzer!!"   He laughed.  Yes it sure gets your attention when you squeeze that trigger.  I'll tell you John, that 16 inch barreled AR15 carbine my 350 Legend is on really gets my attention too!  It has a muzzle break on it and it doesn't sound too much quieter then the 45 Raptor and for that matter neither does the 450 Bushmaster on my short barreled Ruger Ranch.  Back to that 350 Legend it really make that AR15 shutter and ejects the case violently!!   I LOVE IT!!!!

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 11 August 2021

hi john ...  speaking of your 20 twist in your 45 ... my best bullet for my 36 inch twist Remmy 788 rifle in 44 Mag. was the Lee 310 gr. at 1700+ fps. i didn't think it would stabilize it but at least at 100 yards it made round holes.  so i think your 452 20 twist would be just fine at 300 gr .    maybe you could try the Lee 452-300 if you can get it up to speed.

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MP1886 posted this 12 August 2021

Ken even worse are the Marlin 94 Cowboys with their 38 twist. I have one in 45 Colt and it's deadly accurate at close rate with cast, but horrible at distance like say 300 yards. In comparison my Winchester Trapper 94 in 45 Colts shoots far better at distance then the Marlin. I has a much faster twist. 

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JohnForrest posted this 12 August 2021

Ken, For 27 bucks it seems kind of silly not to try it. The box of gas checks was more than the mold. 

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45 2.1 posted this 12 August 2021

You won't have problems with stability in the Raptor barrel. The ballistic coefficient at longer ranges might bite though with that blunt bullet.

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JohnForrest posted this 12 August 2021

You won't have problems with stability in the Raptor barrel. The ballistic coefficient at longer ranges might bite though with that blunt bullet.

 

Ken and MP helped me realize I needed something before fall varmint season!

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MP1886 posted this 12 August 2021

John looks like 45 2.1 influenced you too with that fall varmint comment!  LOL

Some info for you.  If you have to you can form 450 Bushmaster from any of the 284 family.  The 45 Raptor can be formed from the 308. Can't find anything to make 50 Beowulf and the 458 SOCOM is a proprietary case.  The SOCOM also has a true .458 groove so if using jacketed bullets keep that in mind.  The only thinner jacketed 458 bullets are the ones made for the 45-70.

The 350 Legend kind of has a proprietary case only in the sense that is made on the 5.56 line at the factory.  It's actually has a fatter web area of around .393 I believe. You can form it from 5.56, but it's a pain and the only best way is to fire lubed 5.56 cases after you have expanded them to the .357 and fire them insuring that the case is all the way back against the bolt face.  This expands the web evenly.  Really it's best to just buy the 350 Legend brass.  It's cheap. Don't believe all you read on the forums about you have to use 9mm diameter bullets.  The neck area of the chamber will except a case with up to a .359 diameter bullet and it does not harm what so ever to shoot that fat of a cast bullet in it.  Just work your loads up.  That and 3.58 diameter is the size I use for my cast.  Just don't load that fat of the bullet out of the case mouth as the freebore is .357 diameter for a very very short distance of about a heavy 1/16th of an inch.  It's a great cartridge.

Hope this helps.

 

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JohnForrest posted this 12 August 2021

MP, I just bought new brass for 45 Raptor, For some reason I thought there was a problem making 45 Raptor out of 308? If I remember right  Straline was only like $o.75/each.

 

350 legend was going to be my next gun but this CBA bunch have me thinking about alot of other thing now.. 

 

I'll have to be content overpowering these Iowa varmints for now.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 12 August 2021

MP >>>>.  good stuff. 

JohnF >>>  i have just what you need :: a brand new 358 CM 26 inch barrel in varmint weight ... ( Adams Bennett a midway house brand ) .. i bot this to make bigger holes in pop cans but then found a 45-70 which does that just fine.   i haven't totally given up on this and have been picking up 350 legend brass at the local range ... so far i have about a dozen .. heh, i have to get in line to recover the good leavings ...  

... iowa varmints ... hey, you do know that we ae being invaded by armadillos ... this would be just the ticket ...

ken

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RicinYakima posted this 13 August 2021

Want to shoot varmints? Come out here, the fires are driving the reported 200 wolves by the thousands out of the mountains along with more cougars than you want to see. 

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JohnForrest posted this 13 August 2021

Ive been tanning a few coyote hides the last few years. A wolf hide would be pretty cool to do as long as there really are more than we really want to have around. Ken C, I'm not easy but I am cheep. I bet that iron is pretty pricy?

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RicinYakima posted this 13 August 2021

If you get caught it is 5 years in prison, $10,000 fine and lost of hunting privileges' for life. It is the same as the price for shooting one of the introduced grizzlies. 

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bdrake71 posted this 13 August 2021

My current AR wildcats are two rechambered 300 blk barrels with carbine gas lengh gas systems.  one in 30 Herrett Rimless and the other is 30BRX.  Both are fun but require non standard magazines and bolts. 
30 Herrett Rimless uses trimmed down 6.8 SPC brass as its parent case while the 30BRX uses cutdown and trimmed 308
Winchester cases (I've since switched to using reformed 22-250 cases for less case trimming and reaming of the neck).
The 30 Herrett Rimless equals 7.62x39 in ballistics but doesn't have such a sharp taper to the cartridge case which means I don't have hto deal with heavily curved mags like some AR-39 users have to deal with.
The 30BRX wildcat ballistics can match a 308 Winchester in a standard bolt-action rifle but because my AR15 bolt is designed for the 450 Bushmaster it has a pressure limit of 42k PSI which means I load my 30BRX bullets using 30-30 Winchester power levels.
I built both rifles as experiments in developing an effective 200 yard deer rifle in 30 caliber using 150-200gr cast bullets which the former 300BLK barrel's 1-8" twists would not be a hinderance and at times a boon.
I did have a 300 Apache (simply a necked up .223 Rem case) chambered AR a few years back that was very nice but due to the case length and the magazine size limits, I only could use light bullets (110-125gr) or heavier bullets (anything over 130gr) seated deep and past the case neck which ate into case volume for powder as well.  I never got it too match 30-30 Win velocities but it did equal 7.62x39 performance in the 125gr weights.  Would I do a 300 Apache AR again?  sure, but I'd also want to match it up with a custom barrel (1-12") twist to match up with the light weight 30 caliber bullets to see how accurate I could make it.  1-8" twist is too tight for the lightweight cast 30 caliber bullets in my opinion.  
For non wildcats, I also own a 6.5 Grendel AR15 upper and Its a tackdriver with both jacketed and cast bullets.  I use it in NRA Highpower matches and I'm almost set to commit to another buying a near-twin of the Grendel but in 6mm (6PPC) for my next set of AR experiments (I'd of course have to purchase some 6mm bullet molds as well...)

The earlier post of a 7.62x25 Pistol Caliber Carbine AR definitely would perk my interest in another wildcat if I didn't already own a 9mm AR carbine.

Bruce    

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