Oddball AR's

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Last Post 19 October 2021

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JohnForrest posted this 11 August 2021

45 Raptor...A couple of years ago after my first AR15 in 223, I decided I wanted a big blaster for Iowa deer hunting. We have that straight case business here and 350 legend really wasn't on my radar yet. Everyone had a 450 BM and I kind of wanted a 50 Beowolf to go with my 6.5 Grendel. Somehow I learned that Arne Brennen was involved with the Grendel and had later developed a .45 AR to kind of "one up" the Beowolf. The thing I really liked about it was his position to not have any propriety control over others using his development. The other thing it was a rebated 460 case for a 308ar and not a AR15. That meant a little over 10,000 psi extra safety margin.

This round was designed to shoot bullets up to 390 grains. I got a 16" barrel from Satern here in Iowa and everything was fine. But now I have the casting bug and Its time to figure out how big a bullet I want to try first and see how well I can get this AR to group.

7.62x25...Shortly after getting a couple Tokarev pistols, I found a PPS43-C. (semi auto version of Russian tank troop machine gun) also chambered in the Tokarev round. Mags held 30 rounds, it was meant to be a machine gun, and surpluss was getting hard to find. My solution was to learn how to cast. Lucky for me Starline was making new brass and my dad was a plumber with a lead pot. That casting thing was kind of fun so I got molds for all my pistols.

Wasn't long I got the AR bug back and the logical thing for me at the time was build a Tokarev AR. I found Ron Williams in Florida that was making barrels and mag adaptors for my PPS-43 mags and I was off to the races.

Pistol length gas system and 308 buffer, shoots like 22 mag.

So my question to CBA guys is, what should I try to get this AR shooting straighter? I have noticed 110 speer HP shoot 1/2 sized groups of my blaster cast loads. Not sure how much longer bullet I could use without pushing bullet back into the case a little.

Maybe a few of you have played with these rounds?

John

7.62x25-45raptor

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MP1886 posted this 12 August 2021

Ken even worse are the Marlin 94 Cowboys with their 38 twist. I have one in 45 Colt and it's deadly accurate at close rate with cast, but horrible at distance like say 300 yards. In comparison my Winchester Trapper 94 in 45 Colts shoots far better at distance then the Marlin. I has a much faster twist.

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RicinYakima posted this 13 August 2021

Want to shoot varmints? Come out here, the fires are driving the reported 200 wolves by the thousands out of the mountains along with more cougars than you want to see.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 10 October 2021

gun shops ? .. don't know of any good old dingy gunsmith/loafer/gunshops left in Iowa, but of the shiny plastic well light, no-bargain sporting emporium ... Scheels in Jordan Creek in Des Moines is worth a couple hours ... take your girl in also, lots of spiffy things for the gals...

ken

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 11 August 2021

sounds like fun ...

is your oal seating limited by the magazine ?

there are only 2 or 3 rules for cast accuracy.

check that you are in the ballpark of bullet length versus rifling twist at your velocity.
everything important happens in the first inch of bullet travel. maybe the first half-inch.
the more support for the bullet in the throat the better. a wad cutter is ideal, except it MIGHT not feed and MIGHT get goofy aerodynamically some distance down range.

*****************************

there might be some more rules but none of them seem to work twice in a row, or when you need them to obey your wishes.

oh ... a cast group only twice as big as gold dots ain't that bad ...

ken

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MP1886 posted this 11 August 2021

Well for anything I want a quick follow up shot for I better stick with mag length , but sitting here thinking about it, I could go longer for target performance and bragging rights.. I have a 300 BO AR pistol that has a side charging handle and no gas system. It's almost easier loading one cartridge at a time.

The 45 Raptor was supposed to be better at feeding hollow points and hunting bullets. It has the feed ramp built into the mag. I've had mixed results with that. Maybe I'll look for a nice semi wadcutter mold about .453. That should be available somewhere.

I think I have a 1-20 twist for my 45. 16" barrel, so might have to deal with what's available vs what I really want.

Thanks for the advice Ken

John you need to talk to 45 2.1 here on this forum as he has a 45 Raptor which I built for him and he also has a cast bullet that he designed that shoots very well in it. The bullet was actually designed for a Ruger revolver and is a heavy bullet. I know this because I wasn't having any success shooting cast out of my 450 Bushmaster Ruger Ranger and he suggested the bullet mold I just spoke about. He was right, I can get it up to good velocity with good accuracy. You might pm him here and ask him about it.

Arne Brennen is a personal friend of mine and I know the whole history of the 6.5 Grendel and Arne's whole line of Raptor cartridges. Arne had asked me for some ideas on the 460 Raptor. If there is anything you would like to discuss along this line just pm me as I don't wish to air this on a public forum.

One more note. The 350 Legend is one heck of a good cartridge although it got off to a bad start. I have one and really like it. I actually call it my 35 Remington AR15

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MP1886 posted this 11 August 2021

Thanks MP, I only know what is public about the whole deal.

It's good to know someone has blazed a trail for me. I haven't fiddled with my Raptor near as much as I should. My brother in law has a 460 pistol and it's a wrist killer with his cast reloads, no fun at all. Big and slow with 10lb AR should be much more comfortable to shoot.

What twist rate would you suggest for a new 35 Remington AR? and ideal barrel length?

John

My best friend has a 460 S&W with the longer barrel, I believe 8 inch? I shot it with full hilt jacketed loads and I thought it was going to wreck my wrist, but it didn't. I thought it was quite pleasant to shoot. His had the factory muzzle break on it and the factory grips were wood and rubber and soaked up the recoil nice. Shooting 45 Colts out of it was just a little bit more recoil then 38 Specials.

The standard 1 in 16 inch twist in the 350 Legend seems to do just fine. I've shot up to 220 grain cast in it and it did very well. I call it my 35 Remington AR15 because I'm using a bullet that 45 2.1 designed for the 35 Remington. In hollow point it's 217 grain and in solid form about 225. I also shoot the LEE 200 grain bullet also meant for the 35 Remington. My rifle seems to like Accurate 1680 powder.

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45 2.1 posted this 11 August 2021

45 Raptor.. This round was designed to shoot bullets up to 390 grains. I got a 16" barrel from Satern here in Iowa and everything was fine. But now I have the casting bug and Its time to figure out how big a bullet I want to try first and see how well I can get this AR to group.

Maybe a few of you have played with these rounds?

John

I have the 45 Raptor on the AR 10 with the Saturn barrel. I use the MP Molds "45 Ruger Only" bullet (mentioned above) weighing about 300 grains in GC configuration in it. I also use the large HP pin. That particular bullet feeds and shoots very well in it with WW296 powering it for about 2,200 fps. It has accounted for quite a few varmints around the house.

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MP1886 posted this 11 August 2021

Thanks for the info Bob,

Looks like I might have to wait a bit on that MP mold. Not sure where you live but but it must be a serious place if your using 45 Raptor on "varmints"

You have that right John, some very serious varmints. As I said I built that AR for him and of course I had to test it out. Arnie Brennen wanted to know what I thought. I said "The freaking is a cannon!!! Like a 105 howitzer!!" He laughed. Yes it sure gets your attention when you squeeze that trigger. I'll tell you John, that 16 inch barreled AR15 carbine my 350 Legend is on really gets my attention too! It has a muzzle break on it and it doesn't sound too much quieter then the 45 Raptor and for that matter neither does the 450 Bushmaster on my short barreled Ruger Ranch. Back to that 350 Legend it really make that AR15 shutter and ejects the case violently!! I LOVE IT!!!!

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 11 August 2021

hi john ... speaking of your 20 twist in your 45 ... my best bullet for my 36 inch twist Remmy 788 rifle in 44 Mag. was the Lee 310 gr. at 1700+ fps. i didn't think it would stabilize it but at least at 100 yards it made round holes. so i think your 452 20 twist would be just fine at 300 gr . maybe you could try the Lee 452-300 if you can get it up to speed.

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bdrake71 posted this 13 August 2021

My current AR wildcats are two rechambered 300 blk barrels with carbine gas lengh gas systems. one in 30 Herrett Rimless and the other is 30BRX. Both are fun but require non standard magazines and bolts.
30 Herrett Rimless uses trimmed down 6.8 SPC brass as its parent case while the 30BRX uses cutdown and trimmed 308
Winchester cases (I've since switched to using reformed 22-250 cases for less case trimming and reaming of the neck).
The 30 Herrett Rimless equals 7.62x39 in ballistics but doesn't have such a sharp taper to the cartridge case which means I don't have hto deal with heavily curved mags like some AR-39 users have to deal with.
The 30BRX wildcat ballistics can match a 308 Winchester in a standard bolt-action rifle but because my AR15 bolt is designed for the 450 Bushmaster it has a pressure limit of 42k PSI which means I load my 30BRX bullets using 30-30 Winchester power levels.
I built both rifles as experiments in developing an effective 200 yard deer rifle in 30 caliber using 150-200gr cast bullets which the former 300BLK barrel's 1-8" twists would not be a hinderance and at times a boon.
I did have a 300 Apache (simply a necked up .223 Rem case) chambered AR a few years back that was very nice but due to the case length and the magazine size limits, I only could use light bullets (110-125gr) or heavier bullets (anything over 130gr) seated deep and past the case neck which ate into case volume for powder as well. I never got it too match 30-30 Win velocities but it did equal 7.62x39 performance in the 125gr weights. Would I do a 300 Apache AR again? sure, but I'd also want to match it up with a custom barrel (1-12") twist to match up with the light weight 30 caliber bullets to see how accurate I could make it. 1-8" twist is too tight for the lightweight cast 30 caliber bullets in my opinion.
For non wildcats, I also own a 6.5 Grendel AR15 upper and Its a tackdriver with both jacketed and cast bullets. I use it in NRA Highpower matches and I'm almost set to commit to another buying a near-twin of the Grendel but in 6mm (6PPC) for my next set of AR experiments (I'd of course have to purchase some 6mm bullet molds as well...)

The earlier post of a 7.62x25 Pistol Caliber Carbine AR definitely would perk my interest in another wildcat if I didn't already own a 9mm AR carbine.

Bruce

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MP1886 posted this 15 August 2021

Take a look into the 300 HAM'R by wilson combat , I use one for cast only 1-15 twist 20 inch barrel that shoots 1 inch groups at 100 yard with a 180 gr. powder coat bullet running about 1800 fps.

Here's what my 350 Legend does with a 16 inch barrel:

Lilgun 0.357 Lee200gr 1964 fps ES 18 SD 12 W296 0.357 Lee200gr 1939 fps ES 24 SD N120 0.357 Lee200gr 2039 fps ES 34 SD 18 IMR4227 0.357 Lee200gr 1839 fps ES 33 SD 16 AL2400 0.357 Lee200gr 1912 fps ES 18 SD 12 A1680 0.357 Lee200gr 1946 fps ES 65 SD 34 A1680 0.357 Lee200gr 2022 fps ES 18 SD 1 Lilgun 0.357 Lee200gr 2013 fps ES 54 SD 21 AL2400 0.357 Lee200gr 1948 fps ES 20 SD 8 W296 0.357 Lee200gr 1920 fps ES 112 SD 41 IMR4227 0.357 Lee200gr 1905 fps ES 123 SD 48 N120 0.357 Lee200gr 1986 fps ES 42 SD 26

It will also do that with a 217 grain hollow point designed by 45 2.1 and it will exceed that with Remington 180 grain round nose jacketed in addtion to shooting groups that where the bullets cut one another with either cast or jacketed.

There are better rounds that the 300 Hammer and the 300 BO should never be compared to the rounds we are discussing here as it's a peep squeak cartridge in my opinion.

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bdrake71 posted this 16 August 2021

300 Hamr is only slightly faster than the 300BLK but I do see it allows 150gr bullets without sinking the bullet too far down the neck to fit in a AR15 magazine.

I'll stick with my .30 Herrett Rimless, 7.62x39 and 30 BRX AR uppers.

Regarding the 6.5 Grendel upper. I use Lyman's 100gr 266305 (semi-spirepoint GC) and Lyman's 127gr 266455 (Louverin GC) designs for my Grendel. the 100gr bullet works great out to 200 yards and I reserve the 127gr Louverin for 300 yardlines in NRA matches. I PC Coat both bullets for my Grendel loads so I don't have worry about lube contaminating my loads when summer matches reach close to 100degrees on the firing line.

B

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MP1886 posted this 17 August 2021

Take a look into the 300 HAM'R by wilson combat , I use one for cast only 1-15 twist 20 inch barrel that shoots 1 inch groups at 100 yard with a 180 gr. powder coat bullet running about 1800 fps.

Here's what my 350 Legend does with a 16 inch barrel:

Lilgun 0.357 Lee200gr 1964 fps ES 18 SD 12 W296 0.357 Lee200gr 1939 fps ES 24 SD N120 0.357 Lee200gr 2039 fps ES 34 SD 18 IMR4227 0.357 Lee200gr 1839 fps ES 33 SD 16 AL2400 0.357 Lee200gr 1912 fps ES 18 SD 12 A1680 0.357 Lee200gr 1946 fps ES 65 SD 34 A1680 0.357 Lee200gr 2022 fps ES 18 SD 1 Lilgun 0.357 Lee200gr 2013 fps ES 54 SD 21 AL2400 0.357 Lee200gr 1948 fps ES 20 SD 8 W296 0.357 Lee200gr 1920 fps ES 112 SD 41 IMR4227 0.357 Lee200gr 1905 fps ES 123 SD 48 N120 0.357 Lee200gr 1986 fps ES 42 SD 26

It will also do that with a 217 grain hollow point designed by 45 2.1 and it will exceed that with Remington 180 grain round nose jacketed in addtion to shooting groups that where the bullets cut one another with either cast or jacketed.

There are better rounds that the 300 Hammer and the 300 BO should never be compared to the rounds we are discussing here as it's a peep squeak cartridge in my opinion.

in your HUMBLE opinion I could push a lot faster but I rely on accuracy to kill and pinpoint accuracy wins in my book and I noticed you didn't tell of your groups at 100 yds .And I also shoot a 350 Legend but do not play around with your pip squeak little bullets mine shoots a 285 gr. paper patch bullet and it too will shoot 1 moa and only runs 1800 fps but have shot many hogs most at 300 lb or better with complete pass through . SO now you have the other side of the story

Since I've already done my side of the story I'm going to do the edges. I too have done what you have, like say 220 grain bullets from the 7.62x39 and 217 grain bullets from the Winchester 32 Special. All with very good velocity and accuracy. Like someone else said only accurate rifles interest me, but I'll add to that with only accurate loads interesting me.

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Brodie posted this 28 August 2021

John, if you want to cut down on the setback when you pull the trigger, you can always move up to the next slower powder. If you can retain your target velocity and acceptable accuracy. It involves a change in how fast the bullet is accelerated to its muzzle velocity. A little slower acceleration to the rear is the result.

I found the above out while casting, loading, and shooting for the .458 Win. Mag. The difference between IMR 3031 and IMR 4198 in full house loads to the same approximate velocity was quite a revelation. Just a thought.

Brodie

B.E.Brickey

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JohnForrest posted this 19 October 2021

The 110's did pretty good. Out to 100 they were kind of boring to shoot with. It was a wind mess every day I went out But I bet I shot 100 to 150 depending on how I did with the ones sitting on the holes? Even better news I think I have 4-5 more farms to hunt on, I have to do some calling first.

Now on to working with the 100 grain plain base. Not sure what to expect? I have not looked yet but what are the rules with gas checks and plain base powder coated for an AR? Rules for postal or association shoots?

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JohnForrest posted this 11 August 2021

Well for anything I want a quick follow up shot for I better stick with mag length , but sitting here thinking about it, I could go longer for target performance and bragging rights.. I have a 300 BO AR pistol that has a side charging handle and no gas system. It's almost easier loading one cartridge at a time.

The 45 Raptor was supposed to be better at feeding hollow points and hunting bullets. It has the feed ramp built into the mag. I've had mixed results with that. Maybe I'll look for a nice semi wadcutter mold about .453. That should be available somewhere.

I think I have a 1-20 twist for my 45. 16" barrel, so might have to deal with what's available vs what I really want.

Thanks for the advice Ken

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JohnForrest posted this 11 August 2021

Thanks MP, I only know what is public about the whole deal.

It's good to know someone has blazed a trail for me. I haven't fiddled with my Raptor near as much as I should. My brother in law has a 460 pistol and it's a wrist killer with his cast reloads, no fun at all. Big and slow with 10lb AR should be much more comfortable to shoot.

What twist rate would you suggest for a new 35 Remington AR? and ideal barrel length?

John

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JohnForrest posted this 11 August 2021

Thanks for the info Bob,

Looks like I might have to wait a bit on that MP mold. Not sure where you live but but it must be a serious place if your using 45 Raptor on "varmints"