Oddball AR's

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  • Last Post 19 October 2021
JohnForrest posted this 11 August 2021

45 Raptor...A couple of years ago after my first AR15 in 223, I decided I wanted a big blaster for Iowa deer hunting. We have that straight case business here and 350 legend really wasn't on my radar yet. Everyone had a 450 BM and I kind of wanted a 50 Beowolf to go with my 6.5 Grendel. Somehow I learned that Arne Brennen was involved with the Grendel and had later developed a .45 AR  to kind of "one up" the Beowolf. The thing I really liked about it was his position to not have any propriety  control over others using his development. The other thing it was a rebated 460 case for  a 308ar and not a AR15. That meant a little over 10,000 psi extra safety margin. 

This round was designed to shoot bullets up to 390 grains. I got a 16" barrel from Satern here in Iowa and everything was fine. But now I have the casting bug and Its time to figure out how big a bullet I want to try first and see how well I can get this AR to group. 

7.62x25...Shortly after getting a couple Tokarev pistols, I found a PPS43-C. (semi auto version of Russian tank troop machine gun) also chambered in the Tokarev round. Mags held 30 rounds, it was meant to be a machine gun, and surpluss was getting hard to find. My solution was to learn how to cast. Lucky for me Starline was making new brass and my dad was a plumber with a lead pot. That casting thing was kind of fun so I got molds for all my pistols.

Wasn't long I got the AR bug back and the logical thing for me at the time was build a Tokarev AR. I found Ron Williams in Florida that was making barrels and mag adaptors for my PPS-43 mags and I was off to the races.

Pistol length gas system and 308 buffer, shoots like 22 mag. 

So my question to CBA guys is, what should I try to get this AR shooting straighter? I have noticed 110 speer HP shoot 1/2 sized groups of my blaster cast loads. Not sure how much longer bullet I could use without pushing bullet back into the case a little.

Maybe a few of you have played with these rounds?

 

John

 

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JohnForrest posted this 19 October 2021

   The 110's did pretty good. Out to 100 they were kind of boring to shoot with. It was a wind mess every day I went out But I bet I shot 100 to 150 depending on how I did with  the ones sitting on the holes?  Even better news I think I have 4-5 more farms to hunt on, I have to do some calling first.

Now on to working with the 100 grain plain base.  Not sure what to expect? I have not looked yet but what are the rules with gas checks and plain base powder coated for an AR? Rules for postal or association shoots?

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 11 October 2021

gun shops ? .. don't know of any good old dingy gunsmith/loafer/gunshops left in Iowa, but of the shiny plastic well light, no-bargain sporting emporium ... Scheels in Jordan Creek in Des Moines is worth a couple hours ... take your girl in also, lots of spiffy things for the gals...

ken

 agree on Scheels - we stop in Des Moines or Souix City depending on the route going prairie dog hunting in S.D.

 

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 10 October 2021

gun shops ? .. don't know of any good old dingy gunsmith/loafer/gunshops left in Iowa, but of the shiny plastic well light, no-bargain sporting emporium ... Scheels in Jordan Creek in Des Moines is worth a couple hours ... take your girl in also, lots of spiffy things for the gals...

ken

 

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JohnForrest posted this 10 October 2021

Well my bunny shooter is going to have to try and do double duty as a prairie dog getter this week end  Girlfriend wants to go see her mom in in eastern Colorado and I said "Well OK"  I've only tried a couple of different loading for my new molds. So far the 110 is better than the 100s and way better than the 90's. Pretty informal shooting (off a big bale @100) 

I guess I'll just load up a good pocket full and see how thy do? 

Anyone have any good gun store stop suggestions along the way for me? Cedar Rapids Iowa west to Des Moines, South to St Joe west 70 across Kansas just into Colorado, Cheyanne Wells.

Anyone want to meet up and shoot with me? I have a couple of spots to go that aren't too bad

 

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MP1886 posted this 03 September 2021

Well a 113 grain GC mold came in today, so we'll be trying that in the Takarev this week end. About 13 grains heavier than any bullets  Ive seen suggested for it. It sure shot 110 grain jacketed alot better than my 90 grain cast but that sure could of been my fault.

I do have a 100 grain mold on its way too so lots of fun ahead. 

Kind of wondering where to start with powder and charge? 

This is going to be my Hasenfeffer shooter this winter. My new place is loaded with them. 

Are there any ground rules with longer than usual cast bullets and how far back into the case is safe? I just assume it might be a accuracy issue more than a safety concern?

 

I've been shooting 100 grain bullets in my Tokarev and 30 Luger for 20 years. Have even shot it in the 32  acp.  I designed a TC nose 100 grain bullet for them and have a couple moulds for it.  Because they have such a short neck my bullet is designed so the combustion gas doesn't get to the lube groove.  An old P08 7.65 Luger with easily shoot 1/2 inch groups at 25 yards with my bullet. I've also done a lot of shooting with the LEE 100 grain round nose and it too is very accurate.  I have 4 different model hand guns in 30 Luger and one is a full size 1911 that I made the barrel for. 

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 03 September 2021

keep the safety considerations at the top of your check list.

regardless of the quaint name of the cartridge, the most important .. and boring ... thing is the powder capacity with the bullet seated.

example :: .. as far as max safe loads go ... if you have a 357 mag with bullet seated really far out, you have an " improved " 357 mag .... if you have the bullet seated pretty deep, you have a 38 special ... if you seat the bullet really deep, you have a 380 acp .... 

dang compromises ...

but there is that thing about variety and spice ...

or else we all would be shooting 30-06 ...  the only cartridge we really need ...

*************

btw, as i read the revised Iowa deer directions, we can now use any cartridge of 35 or bigger, as long as it has enough power.  my extra 35 barrel may wind up on a 358 Winchester ... 

ken

 

 

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JohnForrest posted this 03 September 2021

Well a 113 grain GC mold came in today, so we'll be trying that in the Takarev this week end. About 13 grains heavier than any bullets  Ive seen suggested for it. It sure shot 110 grain jacketed alot better than my 90 grain cast but that sure could of been my fault.

I do have a 100 grain mold on its way too so lots of fun ahead. 

Kind of wondering where to start with powder and charge? 

This is going to be my Hasenfeffer shooter this winter. My new place is loaded with them. 

Are there any ground rules with longer than usual cast bullets and how far back into the case is safe? I just assume it might be a accuracy issue more than a safety concern?

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JohnForrest posted this 28 August 2021

I like those  ideas better than just reducing the powder charge. Be nice to have about the same feel with a lighter jacketed hunting bullet as I do with a heavier cast target load for practice shooting. So we'll see. I started with 4227 just because its such a popular choice. Thanks

 

John

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Brodie posted this 28 August 2021

John, if you want to cut down on the setback when you pull the trigger, you can always move up to the next slower powder.  If you can retain your target velocity and acceptable accuracy.  It involves a change in how fast the bullet is accelerated to its muzzle velocity.  A little slower acceleration to the rear is the result.

I found the above out while casting, loading, and shooting for the .458 Win. Mag. The difference between IMR 3031 and IMR 4198 in full house loads to the same approximate velocity was quite a revelation.    Just a thought.

Brodie

B.E.Brickey

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MP1886 posted this 27 August 2021

John I can give you some loads that I used in my 450 Bushmaster albeit not the 45 Raptor, but you said target loads so I believe these may suffice for that.  These are with the 45 bullet that 4 2.5 told you about:  30 grains of 2400 gave me 1836.  Lil Gun 30 grains gave me 1822 fps using a 450 cast, but when fired from a 284 case expanded to the 450 I 1872 fps.  Those both gave me 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards.  I tried AA1680, which is really good in my 350 Legend, but the 450 Bushmaster with the small rifle primer (and I did use a mag small rifle primer) I got a hang fire.  You'll be using large rifle primers so might light 1680 off better. These should all be safe in your 45 Raptor as it's rated for much more pressure and the case is larger.  Might be what you are looking for a target load.

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JohnForrest posted this 26 August 2021

Took Ken's suggestion and got the 300 grain Lee mold so I could get started with lead in 45 Raptor. But still on the lookout for the MP mold 45 2.1 told me about. 

Cast and PCed a few but cant report on speed. First shot errored second shot took out one of the wires on my chronograph, so that was a error too.  Took a couple more shots after settling down, and they grouped in there pretty good. 

Wish I could of got a FPS, 35 grains of 4227, bucked more than I really want if  I'm just target shooting. I wanted a decent % fill but this was a little much for me.

So, I'll get a chunk of #9 wire and see what my velocity is. 

John

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Fitzpatrick posted this 17 August 2021

That is something we can agree on ,nothing better that a accurate firearm .

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MP1886 posted this 17 August 2021

Take a look into the 300 HAM'R by wilson combat , I use one for cast only 1-15 twist 20 inch barrel that shoots 1 inch groups at 100 yard with a 180 gr. powder coat bullet running about 1800 fps.

 

Here's what my 350 Legend does with a 16 inch barrel:

Lilgun       0.357 Lee200gr 1964 fps ES 18 SD 12   W296       0.357 Lee200gr 1939 fps ES 24 SD    N120       0.357 Lee200gr 2039 fps ES 34 SD 18   IMR4227       0.357 Lee200gr 1839 fps ES 33 SD 16   AL2400       0.357 Lee200gr 1912 fps ES 18 SD 12   A1680       0.357 Lee200gr 1946 fps ES 65 SD 34   A1680       0.357 Lee200gr 2022 fps ES 18 SD 1   Lilgun       0.357 Lee200gr 2013 fps ES 54 SD 21   AL2400       0.357 Lee200gr 1948 fps ES 20 SD 8   W296       0.357 Lee200gr 1920 fps ES 112 SD 41   IMR4227       0.357 Lee200gr 1905 fps ES 123 SD 48   N120       0.357 Lee200gr 1986 fps ES 42 SD 26  

It will also do that with a 217 grain hollow point designed by 45 2.1 and it will exceed that with Remington 180 grain round nose jacketed in addtion to  shooting groups that where the bullets cut one another with either cast or jacketed. 

There are better rounds that the 300 Hammer and the 300 BO should never be compared to the rounds we are discussing here as it's a peep squeak cartridge in my opinion. 

 

 in your HUMBLE opinion I could push a lot faster but I rely on accuracy to kill and pinpoint accuracy wins in my book and I noticed you didn't tell of your groups at 100 yds .And I also shoot a 350 Legend but do not play around with your pip squeak little bullets mine shoots a 285 gr. paper patch bullet and it too will shoot 1 moa  and only runs 1800 fps but have shot many hogs most at 300 lb or better with complete pass through . SO now you have the other side of the story 

 

Since I've already done my side of the story I'm going to do the edges. I too have done what you have, like say 220 grain bullets from the 7.62x39 and 217 grain bullets from the Winchester 32 Special. All with very good velocity and accuracy.  Like someone else said only accurate rifles interest me, but I'll add to that with only accurate loads interesting me. 

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Fitzpatrick posted this 16 August 2021

Take a look into the 300 HAM'R by wilson combat , I use one for cast only 1-15 twist 20 inch barrel that shoots 1 inch groups at 100 yard with a 180 gr. powder coat bullet running about 1800 fps.

 

Here's what my 350 Legend does with a 16 inch barrel:

Lilgun       0.357 Lee200gr 1964 fps ES 18 SD 12   W296       0.357 Lee200gr 1939 fps ES 24 SD    N120       0.357 Lee200gr 2039 fps ES 34 SD 18   IMR4227       0.357 Lee200gr 1839 fps ES 33 SD 16   AL2400       0.357 Lee200gr 1912 fps ES 18 SD 12   A1680       0.357 Lee200gr 1946 fps ES 65 SD 34   A1680       0.357 Lee200gr 2022 fps ES 18 SD 1   Lilgun       0.357 Lee200gr 2013 fps ES 54 SD 21   AL2400       0.357 Lee200gr 1948 fps ES 20 SD 8   W296       0.357 Lee200gr 1920 fps ES 112 SD 41   IMR4227       0.357 Lee200gr 1905 fps ES 123 SD 48   N120       0.357 Lee200gr 1986 fps ES 42 SD 26  

It will also do that with a 217 grain hollow point designed by 45 2.1 and it will exceed that with Remington 180 grain round nose jacketed in addtion to  shooting groups that where the bullets cut one another with either cast or jacketed. 

There are better rounds that the 300 Hammer and the 300 BO should never be compared to the rounds we are discussing here as it's a peep squeak cartridge in my opinion. 

 

 in your HUMBLE opinion I could push a lot faster but I rely on accuracy to kill and pinpoint accuracy wins in my book and I noticed you didn't tell of your groups at 100 yds .And I also shoot a 350 Legend but do not play around with your pip squeak little bullets mine shoots a 285 gr. paper patch bullet and it too will shoot 1 moa  and only runs 1800 fps but have shot many hogs most at 300 lb or better with complete pass through . SO now you have the other side of the story 

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MP1886 posted this 16 August 2021

300 Hamr is only slightly faster than the 300BLK but I do see it allows 150gr bullets without sinking the bullet too far down the neck to fit in a AR15 magazine.

I'll stick with my .30 Herrett Rimless, 7.62x39 and 30 BRX AR uppers.

Regarding the 6.5 Grendel upper.  I use Lyman's 100gr 266305 (semi-spirepoint GC) and Lyman's 127gr 266455 (Louverin GC) designs for my Grendel.  the 100gr bullet works great out to 200 yards and I reserve the 127gr Louverin for 300 yardlines in NRA matches.  I PC Coat both bullets for my Grendel loads so I don't have worry about lube contaminating my loads when summer matches reach close to 100degrees on the firing line.

B

 

When I use to be on the 6.5Grendel forum long ago one of the members killed a bull elk with one shot using a 123 grain bullet out of the Grendel, then one of friends did it with the 6.8  Remington about the same distance.  We don't hear much about the 6.8 Remington anymore.  Remington's 30 RAR was an excellent round on the AR15, but the upper receiver was a hybrid.  Wilson totes his 30 Hamer has nearly 300 fps more velocity then the 300 BO.  

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bdrake71 posted this 16 August 2021

300 Hamr is only slightly faster than the 300BLK but I do see it allows 150gr bullets without sinking the bullet too far down the neck to fit in a AR15 magazine.

I'll stick with my .30 Herrett Rimless, 7.62x39 and 30 BRX AR uppers.

Regarding the 6.5 Grendel upper.  I use Lyman's 100gr 266305 (semi-spirepoint GC) and Lyman's 127gr 266455 (Louverin GC) designs for my Grendel.  the 100gr bullet works great out to 200 yards and I reserve the 127gr Louverin for 300 yardlines in NRA matches.  I PC Coat both bullets for my Grendel loads so I don't have worry about lube contaminating my loads when summer matches reach close to 100degrees on the firing line.

B

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MP1886 posted this 15 August 2021

Take a look into the 300 HAM'R by wilson combat , I use one for cast only 1-15 twist 20 inch barrel that shoots 1 inch groups at 100 yard with a 180 gr. powder coat bullet running about 1800 fps.

 

Here's what my 350 Legend does with a 16 inch barrel:

Lilgun       0.357 Lee200gr 1964 fps ES 18 SD 12   W296       0.357 Lee200gr 1939 fps ES 24 SD    N120       0.357 Lee200gr 2039 fps ES 34 SD 18   IMR4227       0.357 Lee200gr 1839 fps ES 33 SD 16   AL2400       0.357 Lee200gr 1912 fps ES 18 SD 12   A1680       0.357 Lee200gr 1946 fps ES 65 SD 34   A1680       0.357 Lee200gr 2022 fps ES 18 SD 1   Lilgun       0.357 Lee200gr 2013 fps ES 54 SD 21   AL2400       0.357 Lee200gr 1948 fps ES 20 SD 8   W296       0.357 Lee200gr 1920 fps ES 112 SD 41   IMR4227       0.357 Lee200gr 1905 fps ES 123 SD 48   N120       0.357 Lee200gr 1986 fps ES 42 SD 26  

It will also do that with a 217 grain hollow point designed by 45 2.1 and it will exceed that with Remington 180 grain round nose jacketed in addtion to  shooting groups that where the bullets cut one another with either cast or jacketed. 

There are better rounds that the 300 Hammer and the 300 BO should never be compared to the rounds we are discussing here as it's a peep squeak cartridge in my opinion. 

 

 

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Fitzpatrick posted this 15 August 2021

Take a look into the 300 HAM'R by wilson combat , I use one for cast only 1-15 twist 20 inch barrel that shoots 1 inch groups at 100 yard with a 180 gr. powder coat bullet running about 1800 fps.

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MP1886 posted this 13 August 2021

John I have a 7.62 Tokie pistol and it's a pretty fun cartridge.  The cartridge I have grown to love is the 30 Luger.  I have four pistols in it. One is a six inch barrel P08 Luger, a 1911 Colt with five inch barrel which I made the barrel for it, an extra 30 Luger barrel for my Browning Hi-Power, and finally a Benelli.  It's a deceiving round and has much performance for it's size. I mainly shoot a 100 grain TC nose cast bullet from them that I designed and had a mould cut for it.  I also shoot the LEE 100 grain which shoots well too.  The Luger and Benelli are deadly accurate, the 1911 next, then the Browning last.  The Browning being last doesn't mean it's inaccurate, just not as much as the other three.  The 1911 barrel liner was made from a 30-06 Model 700 Remington barrel. I prefer the 30 Luger over the 7.62 Tokie.

When I had my 6.5 Grendel (sorry I sold it now) I shot the Saeco 140 grain cast bullet which is 2/3's bore rider and 1/3 bearing bands. The rifle had a Lothar Walther barrel and the bullet fit it like it was made for it.  If the nose of that Saeco bullet slips into the muzzle easily it's not going to shoot.  It didn't on the LW barrel and shot quite well.  The rifle shot jacketed like a match rifle and it should have, having a quality 22 inch bull barrel on it. I had one of the early ones while Bill Alexander was still in business making them. I built it and got the new barrel from Arne Brennen. I sold the rifle to one of Arne's friends that wanted it for pig hunting in Texas. 

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JohnForrest posted this 13 August 2021

Bruce, I like that idea of having a pistol that shoots the same ammo as a rifle. My 9mm stuff kind of favors the pistol side of it. To me TOK  kind of favors the rifle side by shooting a necked down bullet for a flatter trajectory. Like they say "It's all about compromises" . 

Ed Harris gave me some advice on loads to try so we'll see if I can improve on the 90 grain Lee I've been casting so far. 

7.62x25 is also my "Bunny Gun" I have even loaded  round balls just to plink around a bit with and it was surprising how well they shot. My profile pic are some coated pink.

Your AR projects a super interesting thinking about all the trade offs and little advantages. 

How have your Grendel castings done?

John

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