PART I - I never was good at casting, so it is time to gett'er done!

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Bryan Austin posted this 3 weeks ago

Okay, lets see where to start for clarity!

In conjunction with the https://forum.castbulletassoc.org/thread/handcasting-preferences/ as well as https://forum.castbulletassoc.org/thread/target-bullet-weight-variation-limits/

It is time to move forward with the tin mix situation.

I am currently casting bullets with keel lead pulled from a Catalina Capri 22. The data that I can find claims this lead is 96% lead and 4% antimony...ZERO tin. I concur! Dropping up to 222gr bullets pending heat used...from a mold that is designed to drop .428" bullets at 214gr. Typical good fill casts are at least 221gr accurate at 300 yards.

Casting as is, which was my goal at the time, I was able to get fairly consistent groups at 300 yards that equate to 4 MOA. As expected, a few fliers or outliers as well due to possible cavity voids and imperfections.

The new goal is not necessarily to tighten the group, but to eliminate outliers/fliers due to the inconsistency with poor cavity fill. To correct the problem, and lower the bullet weight, apparently I need to add some tin...about 7 to 8 ounces of 95/5.

That should be 20 oz of 40/60 or 13 oz of 63/36...or 7 to 8 oz of 95/5 pure.

I'll have to cast these with a 20lb bottom pour since my ladle casting is a bit sketchy right now.

same bullet, two sides. I think this batch was closer to 218/219gr.

44-40 Website -https://www.44-40.org

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Aaron posted this 3 weeks ago

Don't watch this video.

?si=58uyuLLfqB7F6JlD

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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Bryan Austin posted this 3 weeks ago

Is that you?

44-40 Website -https://www.44-40.org

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Aaron posted this 3 weeks ago

Nope. It's Doc Kesner out west. He has been fussing with that rifle (and others) to get it to shoot better and finally got a bullet cast off for it which castrates gnats. He is loading BP for it but the bullet symmetry, weight, and size all work better in his 1866. I know you are shooting a 1873 but they are both Uberti rifles in 44-40. I ordered one of these molds.

That large lube groove will work great with either BP of smokeless. In 20:1 alloy for holy black or Lyman #2 alloy for smokeless, it should be the bees knees.

Also....it is much easier now to order your alloy from Roto Metals. You won't have to worry about sourcing metal from scrap yards or auto shops. I order lead and tin to mix alloy or Lyman #2 from them. Other alloys and base metals are available if you want to blend your own.

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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OU812 posted this 3 weeks ago

Looks like your casting a little cool. For prettier well filled out bullets, turn up the pot temp and adjust cadence so mould does not overheat and cause frosting. No tin needed.

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Bryan Austin posted this 3 weeks ago

Nope. It's Doc Kesner out west. He has been fussing with that rifle (and others) to get it to shoot better and finally got a bullet cast off for it which castrates gnats. He is loading BP for it but the bullet symmetry, weight, and size all work better in his 1866. I know you are shooting a 1873 but they are both Uberti rifles in 44-40. I ordered one of these molds.

That large lube groove will work great with either BP of smokeless. In 20:1 alloy for holy black or Lyman #2 alloy for smokeless, it should be the bees knees.

Also....it is much easier now to order your alloy from Roto Metals. You won't have to worry about sourcing metal from scrap yards or auto shops. I order lead and tin to mix alloy or Lyman #2 from them. Other alloys and base metals are available if you want to blend your own.

Yes, been preaching the 43-215C and 43-214A for years. John Kort was my mentor back in 2007/2008. He made the 43215A for black powder and I made the 43-214A for Reloder 7 smokeless powder

I do have my eyes on the Rot Metals website when I start ordering tin. I have been looking foreword to this move for a while now....my new adventures in handloading!

44-40 Website -https://www.44-40.org

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Bryan Austin posted this 3 weeks ago

Looks like your casting a little cool. For prettier well filled out bullets, turn up the pot temp and adjust cadence so mould does not overheat and cause frosting. No tin needed.

Sorry I can not explain it all right now on paper, but I am kind of past all of what you said, it is a bit more complicated that that.

The bullet looks like it was cast cool but not exactly, yes but not exactly. My problem is the big two cavity mold I got. I wasn't thinking properly when I got it.

I'd say you are probably coming in the middle of the game about the top of the ninth and the bases loaded....and my explaining things is as bad as the batter right now...LOL

Anyhow, thanks for chiming in!

When I first started this endeavor years ago, I sent my new 43-214A mold to a Mark Whyte that cast me some perfect bullets. Those were the loads that I grouped 40 consecutive rounds inside 4" at 100 yards. THAT is the mix I need to graduate too over time...I just have to do everything the hard way.

plus the first ten shots to make 40. These were the first ten shots before I made a scope adjustment to pull the group to the left. The following 30 shots on the above target.

I have been using "normal" lead all these years...just now messing with some sailboat keel lead and now figuring out what I need to do to get it to fill better.

As I said, there is no tin in the current mix, pot has been set as high as 800, but I just can not get the large mold to heat enough. I need to add tin to help get it to fill at the cooler temps.

Here is what they look like when cast with the correct mix.......but the lead I used was pre-mixed. I just need to learn how to do the mixing myself.

From 2021

44-40 Website -https://www.44-40.org

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Bryan Austin posted this 3 weeks ago

Also note that Mark Whyte's bullets (2019) weighed in at 220gr, I get closer to 215gr with normal lead mix (wheel weights)...but 221gr with my last batch of sailboat lead.
I get good results with the 43-214A single cavity steel mold with this lead, just can't get it to drop the size I need before they crystalize.

44-40 Website -https://www.44-40.org

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OU812 posted this 3 weeks ago

If you ever get perfect fillout, i think you will learn that groups will not improve.

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Aaron posted this 3 weeks ago

I find the blending pretty easy. I shoot 20:1 for the lower velocity stuff including standard 44-40. Chunk in a 5 pound ingot of pure lead and 1/4 pound of tin lumps. I get both from Roto. For faster stuff (higher pressure) I go with Lyman #2. I cast a 2 cav mold with a ladle and keep the pot about 700 to 800 degrees. Things seem to work fine with a normal pace. Not in a hurry but not poking along either. You know the drill. Can’t wait to hear updates!

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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delmarskid posted this 3 weeks ago

Only God can shoot thirty shots at 300 yards without fliers using cast bullets and he ain’t telling me how to do it.

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Bryan Austin posted this 3 weeks ago

I find the blending pretty easy. I shoot 20:1 for the lower velocity stuff including standard 44-40. Chunk in a 5 pound ingot of pure lead and 1/4 pound of tin lumps. I get both from Roto. For faster stuff (higher pressure) I go with Lyman #2. I cast a 2 cav mold with a ladle and keep the pot about 700 to 800 degrees. Things seem to work fine with a normal pace. Not in a hurry but not poking along either. You know the drill. Can’t wait to hear updates!

Thanks Aaron,

This is probably the path I will take now that I know about what I think I have on hand;

Catalina (Capri 22 Keel), claims 96% lead and 4% antimony...ZERO tin.

This is what I think I will have in comparison to wheel weights, or 20:1

The added antimony means I may not get any bullet expansion at impact...but should be fine for obturation in the bore.

I'll start with that, and change up along the way if needed. I'll post the results and update the web page when I get that far.
https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/bullet-casting

44-40 Website -https://www.44-40.org

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Bryan Austin posted this 3 weeks ago

Only God can shoot thirty shots at 300 yards without fliers using cast bullets and he ain’t telling me how to do it.

Just to be clear, ten shots then 30 shots (40 shots) at 100 yards, with bullets cast by Mark Whyte

I only shoot 10 shot groups at a time for the 300 yard targets. Here is my last one (6-18-2026) with the very last outlier... and using (MY CAST) the current 96% lead, 4% antimony, 0% tin sailboat keel lead. Others can be seen here. https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/targets/targets-load-development/2026-targets?authuser=0

44-40 Website -https://www.44-40.org

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Aaron posted this 3 weeks ago

Only God can shoot thirty shots at 300 yards without fliers using cast bullets and he ain’t telling me how to do it.

Our PMI at Quantico would tell us that "I can teach any numb-nuts trajectory tables and marksmanship fundamentals, but to read the wind.......well......you have to sell your souls to the devil."

Our PMI was a salty old Gunny from the Vietnam war. Yup. Carlos. He wasn't all legendary then and we just knew not to piss him off. We were in his next to last class. What a Marine!

Every time I lock in a rifle, I can hear his voice......tighter.......tighter......tighter.

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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Aaron posted this 3 weeks ago

I think at 1400fps, I would use Lyman #2 alloy. Antimony will harden the bullet for sure but Tin will improve flow and fill-out in the mold. RL-7 has lower pressure for sure but who can afford it now? TiteGroup has worked well for me but with less velocity. RL-7 is wonderful powder especially in the large bore cartridges I shoot.

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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Bryan Austin posted this 3 weeks ago

I think at 1400fps, I would use Lyman #2 alloy. Antimony will harden the bullet for sure but Tin will improve flow and fill-out in the mold. RL-7 has lower pressure for sure but who can afford it now? TiteGroup has worked well for me but with less velocity. RL-7 is wonderful powder especially in the large bore cartridges I shoot.

Yeap, black powder 1400fps is nice...not unexpected with FFF Swiss...but with soft lead, it may be try to strip out. I managed but buy a 5lb container a few years ago. I will probably run out of primers before I run out of powder and lead now! (Primers and Tin). I have some tin I can add to test the process until I can purchase some from Roto Metals.

Funny you mention the windage. I have not "set the windage" yet, all targets have the same windage setting per that range. I have yet to get to the bullseye part. I want to improve the cast bullets, then adjust for windage. What I mean is that I have not been shooting much if the wind is over "light and variable". If the wind picks up while hunting, I get the 30-06! At least I can hit something at 15 yards...yes 15 yards...with the 30-06...and in the neck!

Picked off this groundhog at 98 yards last year with these same mix loads.

44-40 Website -https://www.44-40.org

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Bryan Austin posted this 3 weeks ago

Looking at this new list, I may be mixing what I have to closely resemble Lyman #2. When I get that far, I will see how it works with the molds I have. If I get close, but no cigar...I may have to order the correct mold for the mix I will be using.

I added about 2/3rds the tin I needed and it was better, much better. I will add the rest and see what it does. I was having problems with the large two cavity block....the O'give of the bullet would not stay hot enough. If the extra tin makes it right, I can stop there...if not, I will have to revert back to the smaller two cavity block molds.

The steel mold I was able to get the bullet to crystalize....but still did not fill proper, nor drop the size I need....which as we all know is more than likely due to not having the full tin ratio I needed.
Also, the bullet dropped at 215gr...lighter than the more pure lead 221gr. I know there can still be some voids, but I think it's close.

Resized to .428" (Large Two Cavity Mold) 96%Lead/4% Antimony/1%Tin)

(This is if the Keel lead is indeed 95 Lead/4 Antimony/0Tin)

Left - Large Two Cavity Mold
Right - Small Two Cavity Mold

44-40 Website -https://www.44-40.org

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delmarskid posted this 3 weeks ago

That is good shooting for sure.

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358156hp posted this 3 weeks ago

You've made some excellent points so far Bryan. I hadn't considered mould block size as being a potential factor, but your earlier post made me feel a bit naive for not considering it. One question, do you have the ability to catch a fired bullet undamaged for inspection? I've been pondering the 20:1 vs. #2 alloy angle and it seems to me that inspection of fired bullet condition might give you some valuable insight to what conditions your bullets are experiencing on their trip.

I'm really enjoying this thread, thanks for posting it.

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Bryan Austin posted this 3 weeks ago

Today I had to give up the large aluminum mold...just could not get good fill. I fought with the steel mold temps until it got hot enough for a good fill, not perfect...but good. The pot temp I kept at 800 until the mold temp reach crystalizing, then dropped the pot back to 750. I counted to ten while dumping the previous sprue back in the pot...dropped the bullet and then held the mold in front of the fan for ten seconds and then made the next fill. This kept the bullet drop temp up a tad before crystalizing.

The bullets dropped at .4285 or so and resized nicely to .428". Out of only 40 bullets cast, 8 were no good. Weights ranged from 213.5 to 215.2...(temp variations of 50 degrees) with two concentrated groups dropped at 214.3 and 215.0. Lube adds another 1 to 1.2gr...so lubed bullets kept between 214.0gr to 216.5gr.

I will work with this mix for a while and see what happens after casting a hundred or so and shooting them. I ill see if I can get an estimated BNH if they shoot and group good. If not, I will cancel further testing and start Part II...

44-40 Website -https://www.44-40.org

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Bryan Austin posted this 3 weeks ago

Much better today. I narrowed down my options and reverted back to the single cavity steel mold. Got the melt steady after the first seven cold pours.

Pour/dump/cool/sprue back in pot/line up bullets/repeat. Did this eight times. After the eight, I skipped the line-up and just dumped. After they cooled I weight each bullet in order of the dump. Some of the first dumped 215 and some 213. After the first few rows, avg is about 214.5. Still not perfect, but better than with no tin.

Now it is time to compare raw keel lead mix with a batch at lead mixed with tin. The flow out was a bit better and the weight much lighter. I prefer the 220gr, but will settle for the 215 if it groups the same or better.

I really did not expect anything better, ie better groups, but I did want to start mixing my own lead if needed.

As cast; (estimated)