Greetings everyone! Warning- my tractor radio broke so I have a lot of time to think. I'm wondering about the earlier post talking about 3x9 scopes in the Hunter class vs what we are doing now. It's just a rules change and does make some sense to fit the optics to what people would hunt with in the real world. I have no problem with the concept but do wonder if it would add shooters or decrease them? So what is the consensus out there? Good or bad idea?
Scott Ingle
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The only affect limiting scope options might have would be to limit competitors. Witness the historically low and declining participation in IBS Hunter class.
3-9 scopes were the standard 50 years ago. 4-16 and even 6-24 are common today. The prairie dog folks go well beyond that.
Changes to rules of competition should never result in either an advantage or a disadvantage for future shooters
John Carlson. CBA Director of Military Competition.
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good thoughts Scott, but I believe that many want every advantage that they can get ??? In the deep woods hunting a 3-9 scope is all u need for a 75 yard shot.
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9X is all you need for a 300 yard shot! Jack O'Conner was shooting sheep at 300 yards with a 2.5X.
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My primary serious hunting rifle for years was/is and .308W or 30-06 rifle with a 3x9 variable scope. Of all the many deer, elk, caribou, sheep and other big game I've mostly shot with a 3x9 variable scope on the rifle I can count the number on the fingers on one hand and still have a finger left over where the scope was off 3X.
LMG
Concealment is not cover.........
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John and everyone makes some good points. One thing that surprised me last night was when I was looking for a good old Weaver T36 to cut some weight on a Hunter class rifle. Yikes! They started at 500 and many were over 6. Sightrons were just as high. Is this a barrier to entry? I bought a Vortex 3x9 for less than a hundred on sale a while back. IBS Hunter is stuck at 6x like our Military which might explain some of the decline but not all. Higher power scopes are more common here on the plains but my cousins in TN and elsewhere aren't doing that. It really is a dilemma how to improve a class without doing a member poll.
Scott Ingle
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My primary serious hunting rifle for years was/is and .308W or 30-06 rifle with a 3x9 variable scope. Of all the many deer, elk, caribou, sheep and other big game I've mostly shot with a 3x9 variable scope on the rifle I can count the number on the fingers on one hand and still have a finger left over where the scope was off 3X.
LMG
Amen Larry. I'm sure glad you're an American and was in the military. Meaning you like the 308 and 30-06. Two great cartridges. You will remember when we were young Larrry that standard scope was a straight 4x. I'm like you with my 3x9's, rarely is it off 9x.
Hey Larry are you going to get one of those CMP M14's? Listen to this. The CMP now has 1903A3's. The are refurbished meaning new commercial barrels, new stocks and the reparkerizes if needed. Price is $1035.
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I too hunted deer, moose, goat, etc with either a 2.5x, 4x, or 2-7x scopes as well as non optical sights for sixty years.
People who hunt groudhogs, rock chucks, and prarie dogs use much higher magnifications.
Since I was the guy promotig a hunting rifle class starting about twenty years ago, maybe a little history would help. I know it won't change some minds but here goes.
To build a case for a new class that might attract shooters I managed a postal match called 'Light Production" for factory rifles under 9.5 pounds with scopes limited to 9X. After three years over 40 shooters had competed in at least one of the matches. Some had complained about the scope limit. I sent out a questionaire to all who had competed asking if they would like to leave the limit at 9x or raise it to 24x ( 24x Bushnell 6-24x scopes were selling for about $100 (now $170) where as higher powers cost a lot more -- then and now). A majority of shooters responded and the overwhelming vote was to go to 24X. (There was an earlier post on another thread mentioning this poll and claiming the results favored limiting to 3-9x. This is not true.)
Since most of the shooters who were williing to actually shoot, instead of only talk about it, wanted 24X that's what was in the proposed rules presented to the board in about 2010. Although I argued against it, the board removed the limit on magnification in the approved rules.
Official proposals to limit the power to 9X have been considerd by the board at least twice in the last 15 years, and after arguments, rejected by strong majorities. I won't attempt to list the reasons.
John
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"Amen Larry. I'm sure glad you're an American and was in the military. Meaning you like the 308 and 30-06. Two great cartridges. You will remember when we were young Larrry that standard scope was a straight 4x. I'm like you with my 3x9's, rarely is it off 9x.
Concealment is not cover.........
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"Amen Larry. I'm sure glad you're an American and was in the military. Meaning you like the 308 and 30-06. Two great cartridges. You will remember when we were young Larrry that standard scope was a straight 4x. I'm like you with my 3x9's, rarely is it off 9x.
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If there is no growth potential it'll be best to let it ride as unlimited scope power.
Scott Ingle
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I will be first to admit that using a 3x9 scope would indeed be challenging at 200 yards. ( I started out that way ) But what most folks aren’t seeing is the main point. The 3x9 requirement was the equalizer of hunting class. This basic concept was to lure hunters to try our sport with equipment they already had. This equalizer gave a guy or gal the same chance to do well whether shooting a bolt action , pump, lever, auto or break open style firearm.
As all hunters don’t use bolt action firearms to hunt with. They don’t all use 3x9 scopes either. But the concusses was the 3x9 was the most sold hunting scope by all manufacturers. Also some at very affordable prices. I have always felt we blew hunter class by going grossly over magnification. Look at the results between hunter class and production class. At some NT the hunter class rifle with high magnification or high dollar target grade scopes have done just as good or better than production class. Kinda eliminates the need for two classes.
My suggestion is simply start a 3x9 hunting class to attract new shooters or those who wish to try and decide for themselves. Do this on military targets following the normal time frames associated with our program. By using the military targets we just may gain some folks who would like to shoot iron sights just as our military crew does but with hunting rifles. This wouldn’t affect or disrupt a normal match and wouldn’t be shot at the NT. But if available for anyone at any sanctioned club could grow into a new future class. We need shooters. Let’s get back to basics for those who don’t want an equipment race.
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. for those who don’t want an equipment race.
I started in the early ‘80’s with a box stock Winchester Model 70 and a 4 to 12 scope, in Production Class. Back then, then, Production was the introductory class.
I shot that for several years. Among other things I did not want to get into an equipment race.
Then more modifications were allowed to Production Class, and Hunter Class was introduced.
Since then, I’ve moved on to other classes, but remember that my first under 3/4” group was with that Winchester. Sometimes I wonder why I changed classes.
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The black target idea gets us back to the earlier discussion about Unclassified shooters so they can use black targets, lower powered scopes or iron sights. Which could still be a fun intro for someone at the local level if not the National.
Scott Ingle
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The obvious question is how many of the people proposing a scope power limit in HTR class shoot HTR class?
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Good question and my wife or I do at Nationals so one goes Hunter and the other Production so we can share a bench. I would like to see more competition in the class (especially new faces) to make it more interesting. I'm not sure about going for a rules change at this time but I am wondering if we are discouraging new shooters by pricing them out. Then again, if you are using a 3x9 you're going to have to get a spotting scope or target camera like we do in the military matches.
Scott Ingle
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It’s true that with a 3x9 you can’t see bullet holes at 200 yards. When I first started and only had a 3x9 the regular shooters spotted for me. They encouraged me and yes at some point I got better glass. But some folks may own a spotting scope and not a target scope. Remember this is hunting class and very few exceptions will you find hunting rifles with high magnification scopes. Most hunters aren’t willing to take there hunting scope off there hunting rifle to shoot a match. How many of our match shooters actually hunt with the hunting rifle they shoot in a match. Most probably don’t hunt. They use that firearm for competition only. JA once told me that we could have many more classes but people still wouldn’t shoot. He very well could be right. In over 25 years I haven’t convinced anyone to shoot cast. But I still think our best chances of getting people introduced is with very basic firearms that’s not an equipment race.
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All of this is why, for 20 years, I only shot military rifle, except one nationals at Raton, NM. I had a favorite rifle for each class and wasn't going chasing down new equipment to shoot in a place too far for me to drive to.
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I have been shooting in hunter class. For several years I had a fixed 12x on the rifle. All the while I had a Leupold 36x scope in the safe. One day I put it on. Then in trying to test for 200 yards I discovered that the scope was defective. Sent it off and they replaced it with an 8x32 scope. With the new big and heavy scope my rifle weighs at 9.4 pounds. With the fixed 12 I shot some partial groups that showed potential for a record. A better or higher magnification scope doesn't make someone a better shooter but it does show him how much he moves.
A former match director once told me in essence, the more stringent the rules the more joy is sucked out of the game. He says he gave up on the single shot shoots because they made the rules too complicated. Changing the rules for a class to narrow current competition would be counterproductive. Are we paying attention to what is happening in the gun world? Have you looked at PRS and the guns they are using?
Every year I run free hunter sight-in at my range. This year a man in his 60s showed up with the latest Weatherby 307 Alpine with the next generation scope of my 8x32. He is planning to hunt elk with it. Accuracy was remarkable. With the numbers of suppressors and modern rifles it's clear to me that the next generation of riflemen are more than willing to spend on their hobbies. I don't see that an "equipment race" is as important as it was just 10 years ago.
It's the rifleman and load more than the equipment used.
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Mark
Did you decide to keep the 8x32 on your rifle or did you go back to the 12x and why.
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Too early to tell. Just mounted it and sighted it in. I will use it through my flawed bullet test and then decide. It is a rather nice scope, looks funny on my carbine.
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