Follow up: Lino vs Alloy blend / Ladle vs Bottom Pour - '23 BR Nationals

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Last Post 24 November 2023

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Wm Cook posted this 23 November 2023

A week or so ago I was kibitzing about the justification behind using Linotype vs #2 Lyman (I should have called it an alloy blend) and bottom pour vs ladle cast. Thanks for the help.

I went back and looked at the load data from this year's BR Nationals held at KC. I don't mean to offend anyone who doesn't shoot competition and exclude their input. You do not have to shoot in registered competition to be all in on accuracy. My thinking is that if you invest time travel and expenses to compete in a sanctioned match that's a bunch of miles from your home range you're probably going to bring your "A" game, whatever that may be, to the match. I took away a couple, three things.

Linotype vs an alloy blend: It looks like alloy choice is heavily biased towards the velocity you're shooting. Twelve of the 12 shooters shooting 1900 to 2200 fps were using Linotype. Four of the 9 shooters shooting velocities between 1700 and 1850 were using Linotype. Nine of the ten shooters with velocities under 1650fps were using an alloy blend (20/30 - 1 / Pb - Sn).
Ladle vs bottom pour: Overall 26 of the 37 competitors ladle cast. Of those that bottom poured about one in three used Linotype. Of those that ladle cast about 6 in 10 shot Linotype. Kind of a mix there. First impression is that it was a personal thing.

Then I looked at those who shot under MOA. Across all classes of the 37 competitors that shot 100 yard agg's there were 20 that shot under MOA. Those 20 were from the following classes: PRO (2 of 7 that competed in that class), HVY (5 of 7), UnP (4 of 4), UnR (3 of 4) and PBB (6 of 9). Overall 60% of the competitors who shot sub MOA were using Linotype. At face value that's neither here nor there.

Velocity effecting the choice of alloy: The 12 shooters using Linotype that shot agg's under MOA had a listed average velocity of 2052fps. The remaining 8 of the 20 that agg'd under MOA used alloy blends (20/25-1 / Pb - Sn) and their listed velocity averaged 1478fps.

Ladle vs bottom pour: Of those shooting sub MOA and using Linotype, 75% ladle cast. And coincidentally 75% of those shooting an alloy blend also ladle cast. So for whatever reason 75% of the shooters shooting sub MOA chose to ladle cast.

In summary, if the '23 BR Nationals were an accurate finger print for how to do it I would come away with the conclusion that the velocity you're shooting dictates alloy choice. I can understand why soft alloy would be impractical at high velocity but I am clueless as to why Linotype isn't the choice for low velocity. And as far as ladle vs bottom pour (whether out of need for accuracy, personal preference, habit or out of peer influence) most lean towards ladle casting.

As an aside I though it was curious that only one in four loaded at the range.

Appoligize for the number crunching. I spent 4+ decades in management. Bill C.

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DanLH posted this 24 November 2023

Well, you can add one more who loaded at the range, me. The only times I haven't loaded at the range was when I was shooting Hunt Class. I'm guessing that column doesn't get changed very often over the years.

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pat i posted this 24 November 2023

Well I'll be darned. I didn't even know there was a base data tab since it isn't visible on my phone until you move the line over. It looks like you're definitely right and I apologize for questioning you. More stuff to look at although it looks confusing to me.

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Wm Cook posted this 24 November 2023

I think the tab you're looking at is the one for Tech Data. The tab to the left of the Tech Data is the Data Base tab. Column T has the "Load at Range" information.

How come you can open and reply with a smart phone and I can't? Well that's not true. Some come through that I can read and reply to but most don't. If I could wave my wand and correct something it would be to open and reply to forum threads on my I phone. Oh, and add one other wish. That's to shoot sub MOA on an aggregate one time in my life at the Nationals.

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pat i posted this 24 November 2023

I opened the link you sent and the T column on my phone is for bullet alloy. No biggy and maybe your T column is different than mine.

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Wm Cook posted this 24 November 2023

Pat, Jeff posted Nationals data now available. last September. Its listed under the Data Base tab column T. Let me know if I got it wrong. I'll send you a PM link for past years. Thanks, Bill.

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pat i posted this 24 November 2023

Bill I see where it says breech seat in the class column under the PBB class shooters but nothings listed or a spot to print it for the other classes. I'd be really surprised if only 1 in 4 was loading at the range since in the old match reports that had an actual column around half the guys were loading at the range during a nationals. No big deal either way but your number surprised me.

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Wm Cook posted this 24 November 2023

Bill how did you come up with this number?

Pat it came from the Pioneer Nationals spreadsheet. There were 37 groups shot for aggergrate but that's a bit misleading. Caleb Duncan, Chuck Duncan and Gary Gai shot in two classes so the only potential number of those that loaded at the range was 34. Of the three that shot multiple classes only Gary (shooting UnR & HVY) shows as loading at the range. Chuck and Caleb both shoot at the Pioneer club so they probably slept in their own bed, and loaded accordingly for the next day the evening before. I'd say Gary must have been busier than a you know what paper hanger but not sure about the political correctness of saying stull like that anymore. But from what I can see only 8 individuals loaded at the range.

If I goofed up and I'm wrong let me know. My only claim to fame is that I've made every mistake anyone can make in life at least twice.

Having so few shooters loading at the range caught my eye because even on a day to day basis I can find vertical stringing that can be corrected with a powder charge adjustment. Please understand that I'm only part way into using cases half filled with fast to medium rifle powder and understanding its burn rate and what I don't know could fill volumns. Trust me, most of you have forgotten more about cast accuracy than I'll ever know.

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pat i posted this 24 November 2023

I don't remember that but you could certainly be right. I looked at the nationals results on the web and didn't see it listed. Maybe I'm missing it.

Edit: I was just looking and you're absolutely right. It used to be listed on the tech sheet and the match report but after 2010 I don't see it listed in the match reports anymore.

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RicinYakima posted this 23 November 2023

When I was shooting matches, it was a question on the technical data sheet you turned in at the beginning of the match.

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pat i posted this 23 November 2023

As an aside I though it was curious that only one in four loaded at the range.
Bill C.

Bill how did you come up with this number?

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rhbrink posted this 23 November 2023

I checked my 32 Miller case, filled it three times over full and raked a straight edge across the top and came up with 20.97 grains of AA 4100 each time, surprised me with the consistency. My charge with a 235 grain bullet is 12.5 grains so that is 59.6%.

By the way I ladle cast and have for the last fifty years or so, I did try a Lyman electric bottom pour but couldn't handle the mess and the inconsistency. I mostly cast a mix of 20/1, some wheel weights, and some pure lead for round balls for muzzle loaders.

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Bud Hyett posted this 23 November 2023

Side bar question: Could anyone tell me the % of case capacity that's being used using a typical charge for those shooting the 32 Miller and the 30BR?

Shooting the .32-20 CPA and .25-20 WCF in Plain-Base. The .32-20 CPA has 95% of the case capacity of the .32 Miller Short. The minimum percentage I'll shoot in a case is 50% having been at the range several times where rifles were blown up using less than a 50% charge of a fast burning powder.

I'm shooting 13.5 grains of AA 4100 in the .32-20 with a 205 grain bullet having experimented from 12.0 grains to 14.0 grains.
I'm shooting 8.6 grains AA #9 in the .25-20 with a 119 grain bullet, again having experimented from 8.0 grains to 9.0 grains.
The .32-20 case is two-thirds full. I use a 1/4 inch floral foam wad that is pushed down on the powder column just before inserting the case into the breech. This is to get more uniform ignition.
The .25-20 case is also two-thirds full. I use a 1/4 inch floral foam wad that is not pushed down on the powder column because of the bottleneck case.

The lead alloy is 20:1 with the bullet fully inserted into the leade approximately .060 ahead of the case. I've tried harder alloys (Lyman #2) and bent my breech-seating tool.

To me, pushing a bullet into the leade in a cartridge simulates holding bar stock in a lathe between centers, you're getting a little better concentricity with the chamber. The rear of the case is centered in the bolt face and the front is pushed up into the leade rather than resting on the bottom of the chamber and starting slightly askew. Once Large Rifle primers become a little more available and cheaper, I want to experiment with this thought.

Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest

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Wm Cook posted this 23 November 2023

Dan, help me out with this. So if you were running something like 25-1 alloy, with light neck tension, seating with the COAL + .030 longer than jam depth, you could breechseat with the lands pushing the bullet back into the neck. Assuming modest velocity of ~1600 to prevent leading, could you or could you not simmulate the breech seating with PBB's? Or for that matter gas checked bullets.

Side bar question. Could anyone tell me the % of case capacity that's being used using a typical charge for those shooting the 32 miller and the 30BR? Thanks, Bill.

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DanLH posted this 23 November 2023

Why the low velocity shooters don't use lino is that they breech seat the bullets and you can't do that with lino because it's too hard to force into the barrel.