Flash Hole Diameter’s Effect on Burn Efficiency

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Wm Cook posted this 25 November 2023

I’ve been working on a project to see the equivalency of SR primed .308 brass to LR primed .308 brass.  The initial effort compared LR Lapua with a .079 flash hole to SR Lapua PALMA brass with a .059 flash hole.

Initial results were as you would guess.  Faster rifle powder (2400, 4227) shot similar SD/ES while when using medium burn rate powder (RL7, 4895), the SR showed incomplete burn with wide SD/ES.  As a side note both the  SR & the LR burn rate (SD/ES) deteriorated with slower powder.   This was with a .308 Winchester, 205g bullet @ ~1700fps.

Comparing LR/.079 flash hole to SR/.059 flash hole is not comparing apples to apples.

As I’m about ready to embark on incrementally enlarging the flash hole size I thought I would throw out a shout to see if anyone has been down this path before.  Thanks, Bill Cook.

A “Measured Response” is as effective as tongue lashing a stuck door.

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MP1886 posted this 01 December 2023

Larry I'd give my right leg to have that video yet. Unfortunately through computor failures and such it's gone.  I still have the AR10, but not the muzzle break tuner.  I could shoot it without nothing because as it was with the muzzle break there were lot of orifices for a flash to come out of.  I don't run flash hiders on my AR's meant for accuracy and target shooting. I've found out through testing that in most cases they destroy the accuracy. Take that AR10 I'm speaking about with the tuner.  I built it and tested it without any device on the end of the muzzle.  I was waiting for a flash hider I had ordered.  By then I had loads and it shot cast really beyond my expectations.  Then I got the hider and put it on and shot it, my heart sank. Those small little groups when to 3 inch groups at 100 meters. I goes "No, No, No ".    Did my loads fail and they were good ones or what.  Took the hider off and it went back to those small groups.  I tried that on my Colt HBAR and it made no difference. 

I can give you the load. It was 6.5 grains of H4198 booster with 38 grains of surplus 867 on top. The bullet was a 173 to 180 grain cast. Velocity was around 2200 fps. Cases were military. It burned pretty clean, left nothing in the case, barrel, or gas system. I once shot almost 600 rounds of them before cleaning the AR. I only cleaned it because I wanted to see what had accumulated, not because I had too. Something interesting Larry. Other loads and other AR of various calibers, I shot sometimes using Dacron, Kapok, and shotshell buffer.  Never even did I ever find any of those materials in the gas system, alone the action. My synopsis was the stuff went by the gas port in the barrel so fast it couldn't make the 90 degree turn into it. 

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45 2.1 posted this 01 December 2023

Why don't you post on this forum the specific data and test results you've had with cast bullet shooting through your rifles with and w/o the tuner?  Also, why not post that video (?) as mentioned in; "A little side note the engineer friend of mine I speak of want to see me shoot the tuner/muzzle break in the dark at night so he could what the muzzle flash out of the tuner was doing.  I used and AR10 in 7.62 NATO and I use a heavy slow surplus load with a booster and a cast bullet.  There wasn't even a cigarrete glow at the muzzle of the break." I, for one, would really like to see it also.  The exact load data would also be nice.

LMG

Sorry, but developmental work done for a Company, its name or any specifics are proprietary information and you aren’t going to see it. Having been involved myself, I have seen it and experienced it, but it is private information under Company auspices.

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Larry Gibson posted this 01 December 2023

MP 1886

With barrels of equal mass, if one is longer and, thus, slenderer than the other it will have more vibrations.  That's why target and varmint barrels have a larger contour and, hence, greater mass.  It's why bench rest barrels are relatively short and have less contour, if any.  

Yes, tuners can work, never said they couldn't.  You might notice, CBA competition rules for certain classifications do not allow the use of tuners.  Other rifle competitions don't allow them either.  Thus, we much tailor the ammunition to the rifle, as we're not able with the use of a tuner, tailor/tune the rifle to the ammunition.   

Yes, jacketed bullets cause greater vibrations in the barrel because they are most often shot at higher velocity, with greater pressure and have a much harder jacket than cast bullets.  All of which causes greater stresses in the barrel.  

Why don't you post on this forum the specific data and test results you've had with cast bullet shooting through your rifles with and w/o the tuner?  Also, why not post that video (?) as mentioned in; "A little side note the engineer friend of mine I speak of want to see me shoot the tuner/muzzle break in the dark at night so he could what the muzzle flash out of the tuner was doing.  I used and AR10 in 7.62 NATO and I use a heavy slow surplus load with a booster and a cast bullet.  There wasn't even a cigarrete glow at the muzzle of the break." I, for one, would really like to see it also.  The exact load data would also be nice.

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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Larry Gibson posted this 01 December 2023

Wm Cook

Bill

You certainly are pointed in the right direction.  Your experience, knowledge and available match grade equipment should reveal some interesting data/results from your future planned testing.  I look forward to seeing that data/results.

Been a real pleasure discussing the topic with you.

LMG

 

Concealment is not cover.........

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Wm Cook posted this 01 December 2023

Larry thanks for the help.  I think I have it pointed in the right direction. 

The LR .093 v LR .125 v SR .059 v SR .109 flash hole will be my winter project.  I'm curious how the faster rifle powders does against the slower rifle powders. In the end I'll probably end up with the LR and the standard flash hole diameter but I always come away with more knowledge than I started with.

The conversation about changing the flash hole diameter led into the SD and ES discussion and that was partially helpful.   I already knew that single digit SD wasn't going to guarantee accuracy but if you could keep in under 20 it was better than having it in the 40's.  The ES you pointed out and what I saw on my shot strings makes me rethink the burning rate of my powder.  When you pointed out the efficiency of the ignition things started to tie together.  We're only using half a case full of powder and inconsistent ignition will cause poor accuracy. 

All of us can agree that certain powders will perform better than others.  What the best powder selection will be depends on variables such as the bullet choice, bullet sizing, bullet to bore fit, the rifle, the barrel diameter, the neck tension etc all factors in. Heck throw in the scope.  We've all been stumped once or twice when a scope went south.  Then you have the biggest factor of all and that's the individual. 

I already had a basic understanding of harmonics and what you put out fits what I understood to be true.  But everyone who contributed to the thread added value. 

There's are a bunch of things that can cause bad jacketed accuracy.  With cast bullets it's amped up 10 fold.  I'm fortunate in that I started into cast accuracy already having match grade reloading equipment, match grade bench equipment and match grade reloading and bench practices. But learning how to shoot cast accuracy has humbled me.  Thanks again, Bill C.

A “Measured Response” is as effective as tongue lashing a stuck door.

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MP1886 posted this 01 December 2023

Larry which barrel is harder to tune with a barrel tuner, a long barrel or a short barrel?  Or stated in a different manner which of them is more responsive to tuning?  Remember you said the less mass a barrel has the more vibrations. In my question I asked you I know what the answer is.  I worked with those engineers and they told me about this. I've had huge success with tuners and I won't lie, the better success was with jacked bullets. Not because of accuracy, but because the jacketed bullet were more responsive to tuning and I was able to dial them in. Shooters, regular shooter, just aren't ready for tuning out barrel vibrations.  There are some serious shooters that are still using them.  I think Browning saw the writing on the wall and dropped the BOSS.  I have a heavy barrel Browning A Bolt with a laminated stock. It also has a tight 308 chamber, not a match one. With jacketed was able to tune in with six shot to all bullets entering the one ragged hole and that was with the help of a Browning tech on the phone. They work and work very well. 

A little side note the engineer friend of mine I speak of want to see me shoot the tuner/muzzle break in the dark at night so he could what the muzzle flash out of the tuner was doing.  I used and AR10 in 7.62 NATO and I use a heavy slow surplus load with a booster and a cast bullet.  There wasn't even a cigarrete glow at the muzzle of the break. He was so astonished he wanted to show the Army that video.  I don't know what ever became of it.  I think that kind of tells you how efficiently I was getting that slow surplus to burn. That is one thing that will show a low ES and SD. 

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Larry Gibson posted this 01 December 2023

Wm Cook

This is what we are try to match up with by developing the lowest ES with appropriately proportioned SD as we can attempting to get the bullets exiting the muzzle at the same point/node.  That's the theory anyway.. 

"this is caused because as the barrel vibrates through its "circular arc" one bullet leaves the muzzle at say 12 o’clock, another at say 4 o’clock and the third at maybe 8 o’clock. The larger the arc of the barrel, the less accurate the rifle will be, and the larger the triangle."

As lotech quotes Charles Petty; "the numbers are an indication of consistency only" which is correct.  We are simply trying to obtain the most consistent load (internal ballistics) as we can.  Also, as mentioned, accuracy is also dependent on numerous other factors too.  Additionally, as i have alluded to, once we get to a certain low ES/SD we find any further lower ES/SDs may not show any improvement in accuracy.  So where is that low ES/SD where any lower doesn't matter?  Probably hard to put a rule on that one.  However, having shot thousands of groups from numerous cartridges in a multitude of rifles while chronographing them since '74 I find once you get a load giving excellent accuracy and having and ES in the range or 30 - 50 fps with and appropriately proportional SD given a 10 shot test string then trying to find any lower ES/SD that gives any better accuracy is often a journey fraught with frustration.  Part of the frustration is a different load probably changes the vibrations of the barrel which then probably changes the arc of the muzzle......

LMG

 

Concealment is not cover.........

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MP1886 posted this 01 December 2023

H & I dies are called by those names for a very basic reason. Those are the way they were labelled on the exploded parts view and parts lists on the instructions for the Ideal #45 lube/sizer and the designation stuck.

That makes perfect sense...I guess. I have to go wipe the dust off my A and put a little oil on my Bs since they seem a little dry and sticky.
That's funny.  I haven't looked at their parts catalogue, but it wouldn't make sense that you could just order say the ram or piston.  Do they have their tolerances down that good that they interchange? It doesn't take much for lube to squeeze by the piston. 

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pat i. posted this 30 November 2023

H & I dies are called by those names for a very basic reason. Those are the way they were labelled on the exploded parts view and parts lists on the instructions for the Ideal #45 lube/sizer and the designation stuck.

That makes perfect sense...I guess. I have to go wipe the dust off my A and put a little oil on my Bs since they seem a little dry and sticky.

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MP1886 posted this 30 November 2023

Sure there lots of vibrations, in fact everything mechanical vibrates. The important one is longitudinal wave, wave consisting of a periodic disturbance or vibration that takes place in the same direction as the advance of the wave.  The other vibrations don't matter as much.  Those barrel tuners, that really do work, only work on the longitudinal wave, which like I've mentioned over and over again to you. I guess your thesis in Engineering school was incorrect on this matter. Next you'll be explaining how solar flares on Earth so that you can win the debate, anything to win the debate larry gibson for you can never ever be wrong, God forbid. 

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Larry Gibson posted this 30 November 2023

MP 1886

Your copied picture from TBF Newsletter is out of context.  Perhaps you’ve overlooked most of the other more definitive sources of information as found by Googling “rifle barrel harmonics”.  Here’s just some of what was also found regarding the true nature of rifle barrel harmonics;

Barrel harmonics is the minute explosion experienced by a rifle barrel when the bullet is propelled down the barrel. In simple words, it refers to the way barrel twists, whips, or torques. The gun barrel vibrates in all planes: up and down, side to side, and even circular motion.  Ammo is key! To ensure better consistency between rounds, the use of match-quality ammo can help. It ensures that your rounds exit at similar points in your barrel’s vibratory.

In the following video note how the motion of the muzzle end of the barrels movement is demonstrated and described.

Barrel Vibration and Accuracy

From the moment that trigger is pressed and the firing pin strikes the primer until the bullet leaves the muzzle, a series of many vibrational impulses begin in the rifle, all of which are transmitted to the barrel in various magnitudes. These include such minor things as; the trigger sear releasing the firing pin, the firing pin moving forward, striking the primer, and the cartridge being moved forward. The powder then begins to ignite, and the bullet starts moving forward and engages the rifling. Because of the twist of the rifling, the bullet while it is being propelled forward, begins to spin imparting a small but measurable torque, but more importantly as it traverses the barrel it also sets up a circular vibrational pattern, or arc. The heat of the burning powder along with the pressure wave generated by the expanding gasses start another vibrational pattern that is induced into the barrel.

All of these movements cause the barrel to stress and vibrate with a number of different harmonic patterns which if not controlled by some means cause each projectile to leave the muzzle at a slightly different point in the vibrational arc. Some people speak about the "whip" of the barrel, which would imply to some, that the barrel simply vibrates up and down like a buggy whip. Although there are some of the vibrations that are traveling in this direction, the main vibrations are circular. If this were not true, then a 3 shot group from a rifle would always be in a vertical string. This would be because, one would leave at the bottom of the "whipping action", one would leave from the center and one from the upper travel of the "whip". As we all know this seldom occurs, and if it does, it is usually caused by the barrel being under a heavy stress, such as way to much pressure exerted against it, caused by improper bedding, usually of the barrel. Most 3 shot groups you will see will be virtually triangular in shape, this is caused because as the barrel vibrates through its "circular arc" one bullet leaves the muzzle at say 12 o’clock, another at say 4 o’clock and the third at maybe 8 o’clock. The larger the arc of the barrel, the less accurate the rifle will be, and the larger the triangle. As a rule the less mass a barrel has, (the thinner) the more it is affected by the vibrations, this is the reason that a "heavy" barrel seems to shoot more consistently than a sporter barrel, and is also easier to tune.  

BTW, I am having a nice day.  The sentiment is much appreciated......

LMG

 

Concealment is not cover.........

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Larry Gibson posted this 30 November 2023

John

Notice I said "can be detrimental."  That's not saying it always will be.  This is one of those conundrums that can be "proven" either way.  Basically, if you're wanting a hard and fast rule or answer, there isn't one.  Only way for anyone to know is to test with GCs seated below the case neck in their own rifle with the components and cast bullet they are using.  

In my own such testing over the years I've been disappointed often enough with GCs seated below the case neck that I just choose to avoid the potential waste of time.  I prefer to use a cast bullet that fits and then not have to worry or deal with the problem/question.  My first experience with GCs seated below the case neck was many years ago trying to get a 311284 to shoot well in a short throated .308W.  The GCs needed to be seated well below the case necks.  However, in my 30-06 those very same 311284s shot well.  Just could get the 311284s to shoot better than 3 moa +/- no matter what I did.  When I switched to the 311299 in the 308W accuracy immediately improved.  

No hard and fast rule from me,

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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Hornet posted this 30 November 2023

H & I dies are called by those names for a very basic reason. Those are the way they were labelled on the exploded parts view and parts lists on the instructions for the Ideal #45 lube/sizer and the designation stuck.

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lotech posted this 30 November 2023

John Alexander, there may be a better term than exposed butt, but I don't know what it would be, so let's continue with your descriptor until a more appropriate one surfaces. I've done no formal studies on EB, but I've never found it to be detrimental to good accuracy. I prefer not to use the EB method, however, in working with the very accurate Lyman #314399 design in a .308, I've found EB necessary. I've done extensive load development work with this bullet over a several year period.

I've also done EB work, though considerably less extensive, with other bullet designs (mostly, maybe all .30 cailiber) in other cartridges without adverse affects. Good accuracy has usually been the result. When accuracy wasn't the best, I think I always found an obvious cause that wasn't related to EB. 

As for ES and SD numbers, I haven't looked at these in years. I always prefer group size. Perhaps my best consistent groups have low numbers. I don't really know. Many years ago when I did pay attention to these figures, it was diffcult to equate accuracy with low numbers. This was long before these numbers developed a deserved or undeserved fad status. Sometimes accurate loads had low number, sometimes they didn't, sometimes they were in the middle/ inconclusive. As gunwriter Charles Petty mentioned in an article in HANDLOADER some years ago, the numbers are an indication of consistency only, not accuracy. Lots of other factors also affect accuracy.

If all someone wants are low numbers, make up some heavily compressed loads using a slow powder and heavy bullet in a bottleneck case. Numbers will be incredibly low, perhaps the lowest you've ever seen. The load may be accurate or it may not be. No guarantees. 

Perhaps I'm far from a perfectionist, but I try hard to enjoy a hobby and shoot the best groups I possibly can without getting eaten up by insignificant factors of questionable usefulness. I'd prefer to channel my efforts toward something that at least appears to be of a worthwhile nature. If your methods work for you, stick with them, but may we all avoid creating dogmatic principles that are not proven. 

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MP1886 posted this 30 November 2023

Pat I believe the Lyman sizer die is called the H&I die because it's two parts, thus the H&I.  

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pat i. posted this 30 November 2023

Thanks Pat, I'm not intimidated in the least about the additional step.  I do have a .308 Lee push thorough die in my box so that is doable.  After using the push through die wouldn't I be able to use the off the shelf Lyman .309 sizing die with the Lyman lube/sizer instead of the H&I?  Again, thanks for the help.  Bill C.

 

Bill the dies for the lubesizers are called H&I dies for some reason I've never figured out so yes you can use it. Try sizing with the Lee push through and lubing with the .309 die in your lubesizer. I don't know if it'll make a difference in your case but it's worth a try.

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John Alexander posted this 30 November 2023

"Seating the GC below the neck can be detrimental to accuracy/precision, especially with competition grade accuracy/precision as in CBA competitions.  That fact has been proven."

=====

Larry,

If you say it has been proven then it probably has because you are careful what you say. However, I think you will agree that just saying "it has been proven" isn't good enough to settle the matter in a serous discussion. We have seen the fallacy of that in this very thread.

Shooters at all levels of sophistication sometimes think they have "proven" this or that when they are really the victims of believing the results of a too small sample or other defect in their assumptions or procedure. (You could say the same thing about professional scientists -- it happens often. Personal confidence in your results doesn't make them true).

I can imagine a case of mistaken conclusion when seating a bullet so the bottom hung out resulting in larger groups.  The improvement might have been because it degraded the fit at the other end of the bullet, but the "exposed butt"  (EB) (no pun intended) is assume the reason because we have forever been told that it will cause trouble.

I agree your personal policy of avoiding by the potential problem by bullet design is a good rational solution but doesn't answer the question.

Do you have any citations of a well run test that showed EB degraded accuracy at a decent confidence level. I have never seen one that comes close but would like to.

John

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MP1886 posted this 30 November 2023

I should have know that Larry Gibson knows more then the engineers that developed these things. The fact is that Larry knows next to nothing about barrel harmonics.  The sound wave was used, and failed, as an analogy. Maybe if you go back to science school and study all the aspects of a tuning fork you then might know what's going on. Until then I'm finish with this and you because you alway have to be right.  Nobody in the world can teach you anything.  Good day and good shooting, remember, keep them in the 10 ring!  

Here is a pic analogy

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Larry Gibson posted this 30 November 2023

Seating the GC below the neck can be detrimental to accuracy/precision, especially with competition grade accuracy/precision as in CBA competitions.  That fact has been proven.  However, as with many things in this game there are a lot of variables involved as to whether or not any adverse effect on accuracy from seating the GC below the case neck is observable or meaningful.  

Bottom line for me is not to seat a GC with the top of the GC below the case neck.  If I have to do that I use a different desgn of cast bullet.

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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Larry Gibson posted this 30 November 2023

Wm Cook

I believe you are correct.  

I also disagree with MP 1886 because he apparently believes; 

" Vibration or sound waves too, travel in an up down wave."

Ergo, there in is the problem with the "sound wave" theory.  It is a simple explanation and is usually graphed out two dimensionally for explanation purposes which is where the "up and down" representation comes from.  However, Barrels do not vibrate "up and down" as in a linear two dimensional movement.  Barrels vibrate in a three dimensional motion causing the muzzle to rotate in circular motion when can be somewhat irregular.  

The definition of a "node", as discussed here, {"node" has several definitions but the used in barrel vibration, as in discussions of barrel vibrations, simply refers to a specific point in the movement.  Look up the definition(s) in the dictionary.  As used in sound wave discussion you have high nodes, low nodes and neutral nodes.  You also have the movement IYou also have the movement between those nodes.  Thus, with the muzzle end of a barrel vibrating in a three dimensional movement what we seek to do is to have the bullet exit at the same point of that movement (i.e. effect a "node" of that movement), The idea/theory behind having the ES as small as possible is that the bullets are exiting the muzzle at the same node position(?). 

This could be perhaps why "working up a load" or "tuuning" the load to a specific rifle/barrel works as the develops a low ES so the bullets exit the muzzle at the same, or close to the same, node/location of the muzzle movement(?). The question to that is often, does the barrel muzzle move in an even circular motion or is it irregular(?). It may be that accurate barrels do vibrate in a consistent circular movement.  We can tune the load or use a "tuner" to obtain consistent bullet exit at the same node/point of the vibration movement.  the theory further assumes "stressed" barrel muzzles vibrate in irregular motion, thus it is difficult to get the bullets, even with a low ES load, to exit at or near the same node/point.  The use of tuners, barrel weights and suppressors often dampen those vibrations whereby accuracy/precision is improved.

It is proven a consistently accurate load [not ones that are found with one "group" at a specific range] will have a relatively low ES with an SD proportional to the ES.  That is not saying it will have the lowest ES or particularly, the lowest SD but will be in the low range for the cartridge and components.  That is demonstrated many times in the 308W with the faster burning powders giving more uniform ballistics (the ES/SDs) that slower burning powders.  Yet the faster burning powders may not give the performance needed at other ranges or "fall apart" as the range increases.  There are many variables there that can affect both types of loads.  However, if just shooting at 100 and 200 yards as in CBA matches then the faster burning powders such as 2400 vs 4895 can come into their own.  I always continue to search for precision loads that also have a low, for the cartridge, ES with the proportional SD.  Those have consistently proven to be the better, more accurate loads.

All techniques used to lower the ES/SDs, including drilling the flash holes larger, are beneficial to this endeavor. 

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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