Seems like tumble lube is the way to go. Is there an advantage to using a lubrisizer? I did look at the posts and saw some about lubrisizers, but it seems like everyone tumble lubes their bullets.
Does anyone NOT use a lubrisizer?
Is there an advantage to using one? Like maybe for really high velocity loads? (My newest project is cast 223 loads.)
Please don't tell me my Lyman 450 is nothing but an expensive relic.
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Max,
Guesses and opinions are cheap but often something can be learned by looking at evidence. The Fouling Shot is a good source of solid information and a good reason to join the CBA for those who are humble enough to know that they may not know everything already.
Don't throw your lubrisizer away just yet.
I just looked at what the shooters at the CBA 2018 nationals used for lubes. First, over 15 different lubes were used giving support to Joeb's contention that about anything will work. One of the top shooters used pig grease which melts quite easily when torched. It is not certain, but none of the shooters appeared to be using tumble lube except a couple who might have used both (belt and suspenders types.) Three mentioned "Alox" but seemed to be referring to the NRA formula. None said LLA, 45-45--10, X-Lox, Rooster Red, etc. It doesn't look like any of the shooters used only tumble lube.
From reports in this forum, The Fouling Shot, and personal experience it is clear that tumble lubing is a perfectly good way to lube cast bullets for pistol shooting and for rifle accuracy good enough for almost all hunting. It is not clear if it is as good as conventional lubing for the best accuracy. I personally suspect that it is, but it hasn't been proven by winning matches as far as I know. Like a lot of things in CB shooting we just don't know because we seldom run good tests and publish the results.
It can be argued that match shooters are a conservative bunch and maybe they just haven't tried it yet, although I know of a couple who have tried it and failed. There is a great opportunity for someone using tumble lube to show what it can do in match competition and win a few matches in the process.
John
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I currently have eight Lyman lube sizers of various models and use them all.They're all set for different diameters with various lubes.They are convenient and work well for the cast bullet shooting I do.
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I use an old Ideal No.1 for lubing .22, 6mm, & .25 caliber with Lyman Super Moly. This Ideal has Pat. May 31, 1892 cast into handle, has far less "play" in it's parts, with alignment of top punch to die my 1970's era 450 could only hope for.
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My sizing/loading has been pretty much exclusively for 30-06 in the 03-A3. Until recently I seated gas checks and sized with the RCBS lubramatic and WL 2500 lube. Recently added the Lee push through sizing dies to size and seat the checks, then lube with the lubramatic with dies .001 larger than sized for reasons mentioned above.
I did try LLA a couple of times, results did not lead me to pursue the issue further.
John Carlson. CBA Director of Military Competition.
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Holes in the paper target are always the final arbitrator. Empirical experience beats theory every time.
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Several lubrisizers are being used, even converted my Star to be nose first sizer for .30 caliber. I am traditional in many ways, I could not find a way to seat gaschecks correctly. Having the gascheck square is the first requirement for accuracy.
For pistol, convert the Star back to the standard mode and size a bunch at one time. Pistol bullets are all now plain-base, I have given up on the ear-splitting loads. Elmer Keith's favorite load for the .44 Magnum is the 429421, a plain-base bullet.
For Schuetzen loads, the sizer die is .001 oversize. This allows the bullet to be lubed without being sized. Also, any shiny spot on these bullets when pulled out means the bullet goes back into the melting pot.
For competition rifle loads other than .30 as detailed above, the gascheck is seated with the sizing die. A visual check on each bullet after sizing is performed. Once in a while, the gascheck is obviously offset and these go back into the pot.
Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest
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Max,
A lot of people missed the decades old video from Lee where an LLA tumble lubed bullet is torched and the lead leaks out but the LLA remains in tact. They don't understand it either. LLA has no speed limit and sticks tenaciously to bullets. It is the best and obsoleted pressure lube decades ago.
Gary
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Max503 asked -- "I'm wondering if anyone besides me has used a lubrisizer on 22 caliber bullets? They seem likely candidates for deformity."
Shooters have been using lubrisizers to lube 22 bullets as long as there have been lubrisizers. 22 bullets can be deformed in the process as can any other caliber. It depends on bullet hardness and the amount the bullet is being sized down. Use common sense and measure a bullet before and after sizing to see if there is a problem. I am currently sizing 25:1 22 bullets without distortion but sizing them only a little.
John
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I agree with John. For some of us we want to know what handloading and casting methods prove themselves in the CBA match environment. I’ve not yet tried tumble lubing or a progressive press. Those approaches are probably favored by handgun shooters who shoot high volumes of bullets.
A lot of our molds produce bullets that need to be reduced slightly in diameter to fit a specific chamber or produce a desired dimension of OD of a loaded round. Maybe the bullet is sized in one operation and then tumble lubed? But if the bullet is not sized in the tumble lube world, then definitely don’t discard your lumber-sizer.
All of us that chime in here have a wide range of opinions and seldom is there a 100% consensus. That’s one reason it’s a hobby and no one is making a living expounding their opinions.
FWIW
Tom
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For match shooting I am using a Pacific push through die in the reloading press (and you thought Dick Lee invented it!) only to seat the gas check. Then I lube and size in a Cramer (now SAECO) to final size. I found tumble lubing dirty, messy and slow.
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Max, "I can never find ingredients for that 45-45-10 stuff and I don't feel like doing the cooking. "
It's all over the internet...you ain't looking too hard, plus there is a no cook formula with Johnsons liquid floor wax. On top of that a lifetime supply of White's Deluxe 45:45:10 is about $15 for a GALLON. Yea, you should stick with pressure lube (sarcastic).
Gary
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I've currently got 3 lubrisizers set up. One each with Emmert's, MML+soap, and a mix I call BAC2 (3 sticks 50/50 beeswax/Alox, 1 stick Carnauba Red). Each lube has applications that I find it very useful for and I have a couple of applications where I use Lee LLA, usually with some motor mica on it to keep it from doing bad things (like building up on the plunger of the seating die and changing OAL). I've also got spares just in case I want to try something else.
You've got to see what works for what you want to do. And, yes, a lubrisizer can upset the nose on soft bullets in some cases. Seating and crimping the gas check in a slightly oversize die and then sizing in steps helps minimize this and NOE does sell nose sizing dies if you can't avoid it.
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In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice;
In practice, there is.
Various
I do not know why temperature stability of LLA should guarantee accuracy. If so graphite and molybdenum disulfide should be used universally.
Lee Liquid Alox works OK in pistol and low velocity rifle loads. For most shooting, OK accuracy is just fine. In my limited expedience, LLA is not the answer for ultimate accuracy.
If you have nose deformation using a lube sizer, are you using a fitted nose punch? If this is still a problem size nose first in a Lee die and then lube in the lubesizer using a die 0.001 larger.
Steve
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"Do people still use lubrisizers"
My sizing-lubing operation consist of two Saeco lube - sizers and the NOE push through sizing tool, both with a selection of base and nose bushings for the NOE tool.
The short answer is yes, depending on what I happen to be loading for and the bullets intended use at the time
Rifles -- All the time
Handguns -- It's plain base as cast if I can, with tumble lube when I'm replacing my ammo stash..
Without a lot of boring detailed blather, I find tumble lube time consuming and messy and doesn't produce the consistent results at the target that I can get with stick lube and a sizer when used for my rifle bullets. And I like the ability of the above sizers to seat gas checks flat and square every time.
R
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max503, I set my Pacific die so that there is maximum mechanical advantage where the bullet just clears of the die and I can pick if off with my fingers. My match bullets are cast out of linotype based alloy and it helps to give every third one a touch of case sizing lube on the first band. Ric
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"Do people still use lubrisizers"
My sizing-lubing operation consist of two Saeco lube - sizers and the NOE push through sizing tool, both with a selection of base and nose bushings for the NOE tool.
The short answer is yes, depending on what I happen to be loading for and the bullets intended use at the time
Rifles -- All the time
Handguns -- It's plain base as cast if I can, with tumble lube when I'm replacing my ammo stash..
Without a lot of boring detailed blather, I find tumble lube time consuming and messy and doesn't produce the consistent results at the target that I can get with stick lube and a sizer when used for my rifle bullets. And I like the ability of the above sizers to seat gas checks flat and square every time.
R
Agree with R. Dupraz on tumble lube. Never liked the mess or the results. I have 4 lube/sizers. Lyman 450 was my first one, bought new and now is the dedicated black powder luber. I have one RCBS original Lub-o-matic, bought used for $40, that has White Label's BAC in it. And two RCBS LAM 2's, both bought used. One is a dedicated sizer only with some of the parts removed for nose first sizing and the other has LBT Blue soft in it. I have never experimented with powder coating.
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I started our in 1959 with a Lyman 45 and today use a pair of Lyman 450s. I am still old school.
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I have four:
Pan lubrication for me has been a consistent disaster
Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest
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I use a lubrisizer for my very hard bullets because it seats the gc nice and square. The lubrisizer will upset the nose on softer bullets so I either pan lube or tumble lube them and use a push thru sizer to seat the gas checks.
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Aaron
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jeff houck
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Tom Acheson
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Wilderness
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John Carlson
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sghart3578
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MarkinEllensburg
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Spindrift
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alphabrass
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SkinnerD
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