Seems like tumble lube is the way to go. Is there an advantage to using a lubrisizer? I did look at the posts and saw some about lubrisizers, but it seems like everyone tumble lubes their bullets.
Does anyone NOT use a lubrisizer?
Is there an advantage to using one? Like maybe for really high velocity loads? (My newest project is cast 223 loads.)
Please don't tell me my Lyman 450 is nothing but an expensive relic.
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I use a lubrisizer for my very hard bullets because it seats the gc nice and square. The lubrisizer will upset the nose on softer bullets so I either pan lube or tumble lube them and use a push thru sizer to seat the gas checks.
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Several lubrisizers are being used, even converted my Star to be nose first sizer for .30 caliber. I am traditional in many ways, I could not find a way to seat gaschecks correctly. Having the gascheck square is the first requirement for accuracy.
For pistol, convert the Star back to the standard mode and size a bunch at one time. Pistol bullets are all now plain-base, I have given up on the ear-splitting loads. Elmer Keith's favorite load for the .44 Magnum is the 429421, a plain-base bullet.
For Schuetzen loads, the sizer die is .001 oversize. This allows the bullet to be lubed without being sized. Also, any shiny spot on these bullets when pulled out means the bullet goes back into the melting pot.
For competition rifle loads other than .30 as detailed above, the gascheck is seated with the sizing die. A visual check on each bullet after sizing is performed. Once in a while, the gascheck is obviously offset and these go back into the pot.
Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest
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I use a lubrisizer for my very hard bullets because it seats the gc nice and square. The lubrisizer will upset the nose on softer bullets so I either pan lube or tumble lube them and use a push thru sizer to seat the gas checks.
I'm wondering if anyone besides me has used a lubrisizer on 22 caliber bullets? They seem likely candidates for deformity.
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Max,
A lot of people missed the decades old video from Lee where an LLA tumble lubed bullet is torched and the lead leaks out but the LLA remains in tact. They don't understand it either. LLA has no speed limit and sticks tenaciously to bullets. It is the best and obsoleted pressure lube decades ago.
Gary
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Max503 asked -- "I'm wondering if anyone besides me has used a lubrisizer on 22 caliber bullets? They seem likely candidates for deformity."
Shooters have been using lubrisizers to lube 22 bullets as long as there have been lubrisizers. 22 bullets can be deformed in the process as can any other caliber. It depends on bullet hardness and the amount the bullet is being sized down. Use common sense and measure a bullet before and after sizing to see if there is a problem. I am currently sizing 25:1 22 bullets without distortion but sizing them only a little.
John
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Max,
A lot of people missed the decades old video from Lee where an LLA tumble lubed bullet is torched and the lead leaks out but the LLA remains in tact. They don't understand it either. LLA has no speed limit and sticks tenaciously to bullets. It is the best and obsoleted pressure lube decades ago.
Gary
I don't have a torch. Would a road flare work?
All kidding aside. I can never find ingredients for that 45-45-10 stuff and I don't feel like doing the cooking. My 450 is set up for 22 caliber. I'll probably use that for my 223 project.
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Max,
Guesses and opinions are cheap but often something can be learned by looking at evidence. The Fouling Shot is a good source of solid information and a good reason to join the CBA for those who are humble enough to know that they may not know everything already.
Don't throw your lubrisizer away just yet.
I just looked at what the shooters at the CBA 2018 nationals used for lubes. First, over 15 different lubes were used giving support to Joeb's contention that about anything will work. One of the top shooters used pig grease which melts quite easily when torched. It is not certain, but none of the shooters appeared to be using tumble lube except a couple who might have used both (belt and suspenders types.) Three mentioned "Alox" but seemed to be referring to the NRA formula. None said LLA, 45-45--10, X-Lox, Rooster Red, etc. It doesn't look like any of the shooters used only tumble lube.
From reports in this forum, The Fouling Shot, and personal experience it is clear that tumble lubing is a perfectly good way to lube cast bullets for pistol shooting and for rifle accuracy good enough for almost all hunting. It is not clear if it is as good as conventional lubing for the best accuracy. I personally suspect that it is, but it hasn't been proven by winning matches as far as I know. Like a lot of things in CB shooting we just don't know because we seldom run good tests and publish the results.
It can be argued that match shooters are a conservative bunch and maybe they just haven't tried it yet, although I know of a couple who have tried it and failed. There is a great opportunity for someone using tumble lube to show what it can do in match competition and win a few matches in the process.
John
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I agree with John. For some of us we want to know what handloading and casting methods prove themselves in the CBA match environment. I’ve not yet tried tumble lubing or a progressive press. Those approaches are probably favored by handgun shooters who shoot high volumes of bullets.
A lot of our molds produce bullets that need to be reduced slightly in diameter to fit a specific chamber or produce a desired dimension of OD of a loaded round. Maybe the bullet is sized in one operation and then tumble lubed? But if the bullet is not sized in the tumble lube world, then definitely don’t discard your lumber-sizer.
All of us that chime in here have a wide range of opinions and seldom is there a 100% consensus. That’s one reason it’s a hobby and no one is making a living expounding their opinions.
FWIW
Tom
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Yep,
I only have an old Lyman 450 left. Still use it all the time.
With that said, I've bought 7 Lee Sizers this year & a N.O.E. TL432-240-RF mold. This is the only bullet I've tumble lubed so far. Used just WLL 45-45-10. It works pretty well. If I can figure out how the N.O.E. sizers work with the Lee dies, I'll probably get that set up too.
Now I'm starting to experiment with PC.
But I doubt I'll ever give up my Lube-Sizer. 50/50 or WLL BAC.
Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.
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I currently have eight Lyman lube sizers of various models and use them all.They're all set for different diameters with various lubes.They are convenient and work well for the cast bullet shooting I do.
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Having only two sizers on the loading bench seems out of phase here.
The RCBS is used for BPCR and plain base pistol bullets. This has SPG lube in it. The Saeco is used for smokeless load bullets, most using gas checks.That one has Tom Gray #26 (24?) lube in it.
Maybe I need another one? Us Handloader sure have a lot of gizmos!
Tom
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I use an old Ideal No.1 for lubing .22, 6mm, & .25 caliber with Lyman Super Moly. This Ideal has Pat. May 31, 1892 cast into handle, has far less "play" in it's parts, with alignment of top punch to die my 1970's era 450 could only hope for.
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For match shooting I am using a Pacific push through die in the reloading press (and you thought Dick Lee invented it!) only to seat the gas check. Then I lube and size in a Cramer (now SAECO) to final size. I found tumble lubing dirty, messy and slow.
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Max, "I can never find ingredients for that 45-45-10 stuff and I don't feel like doing the cooking. "
It's all over the internet...you ain't looking too hard, plus there is a no cook formula with Johnsons liquid floor wax. On top of that a lifetime supply of White's Deluxe 45:45:10 is about $15 for a GALLON. Yea, you should stick with pressure lube (sarcastic).
Gary
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I have three RCBS lubesizers and a Star. All are set up for different lubes. I also use liquid Alox and White's Deluxe. I am off the opinion most anything works, but when it doesn't, I have options. I am not a paid spokesman for Lee as Gary is (joke), therefore I can't say LA is the only lube to use. Use what you wish and change when you feel the need, but don't get tied into one lube or method of application.
David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .
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I've currently got 3 lubrisizers set up. One each with Emmert's, MML+soap, and a mix I call BAC2 (3 sticks 50/50 beeswax/Alox, 1 stick Carnauba Red). Each lube has applications that I find it very useful for and I have a couple of applications where I use Lee LLA, usually with some motor mica on it to keep it from doing bad things (like building up on the plunger of the seating die and changing OAL). I've also got spares just in case I want to try something else.
You've got to see what works for what you want to do. And, yes, a lubrisizer can upset the nose on soft bullets in some cases. Seating and crimping the gas check in a slightly oversize die and then sizing in steps helps minimize this and NOE does sell nose sizing dies if you can't avoid it.
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The original post didn't ask for lube. I use carnuba red in my rcbs lub-0-matic and have used spg in it. But now just pan lube with spg. I have also pan lubed with carnuba red. You need to get the bullets warmed up for that. And I tumble lube. I have also used carnuba red and then tumble lubed over that. It all depends on what I'm casting for which rifle. After pan lubing I usually use a push thru sizer.
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My sizing/loading has been pretty much exclusively for 30-06 in the 03-A3. Until recently I seated gas checks and sized with the RCBS lubramatic and WL 2500 lube. Recently added the Lee push through sizing dies to size and seat the checks, then lube with the lubramatic with dies .001 larger than sized for reasons mentioned above.
I did try LLA a couple of times, results did not lead me to pursue the issue further.
John Carlson. CBA Director of Military Competition.
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Holes in the paper target are always the final arbitrator. Empirical experience beats theory every time.
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In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice;
In practice, there is.
Various
I do not know why temperature stability of LLA should guarantee accuracy. If so graphite and molybdenum disulfide should be used universally.
Lee Liquid Alox works OK in pistol and low velocity rifle loads. For most shooting, OK accuracy is just fine. In my limited expedience, LLA is not the answer for ultimate accuracy.
If you have nose deformation using a lube sizer, are you using a fitted nose punch? If this is still a problem size nose first in a Lee die and then lube in the lubesizer using a die 0.001 larger.
Steve
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My newest lube/ sizer is old and I use the three I have for all my cast bullet work. I tried the Lee tumble lube process some years ago and found it offered no advantages for my purposes.
John Alexander is quite correct in his post regarding untested cast bullet procedures. We assume much that is really unproven. It appears "conventional wisdom" is often flawed.
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"Do people still use lubrisizers"
My sizing-lubing operation consist of two Saeco lube - sizers and the NOE push through sizing tool, both with a selection of base and nose bushings for the NOE tool.
The short answer is yes, depending on what I happen to be loading for and the bullets intended use at the time
Rifles -- All the time
Handguns -- It's plain base as cast if I can, with tumble lube when I'm replacing my ammo stash..
Without a lot of boring detailed blather, I find tumble lube time consuming and messy and doesn't produce the consistent results at the target that I can get with stick lube and a sizer when used for my rifle bullets. And I like the ability of the above sizers to seat gas checks flat and square every time.
R
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Max, "I can never find ingredients for that 45-45-10 stuff and I don't feel like doing the cooking. "
It's all over the internet...you ain't looking too hard, plus there is a no cook formula with Johnsons liquid floor wax. On top of that a lifetime supply of White's Deluxe 45:45:10 is about $15 for a GALLON. Yea, you should stick with pressure lube (sarcastic).
Gary
You crack me up. I'm ok with a bit of sarcasm. Livens things up. I've got to bite my tongue all the time in real life for fear of putting people off.
Thanks for all the responses. As far as results go, I've done ok in the past with my 450. And now I plan to continue using it. I wondered if maybe I was missing out on some kind of fantastic breakthrough in lube technology that didn't require a lube/sizer. Mine is currently set-up to size 22 caliber and it's filled with Felix World Famous Lube. Seems to work ok with my 22 Hornet Contender. You just got to use light, finger pressure when seating the GC.
That said, I recently seated GC's on some unlubed 30 caliber bullets with a push-through die. Thought I was going to break my RCBS press. Those GC's were imprinted onto the base of the bullet. They, however, shot very well.
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max503, I set my Pacific die so that there is maximum mechanical advantage where the bullet just clears of the die and I can pick if off with my fingers. My match bullets are cast out of linotype based alloy and it helps to give every third one a touch of case sizing lube on the first band. Ric
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"Do people still use lubrisizers"
My sizing-lubing operation consist of two Saeco lube - sizers and the NOE push through sizing tool, both with a selection of base and nose bushings for the NOE tool.
The short answer is yes, depending on what I happen to be loading for and the bullets intended use at the time
Rifles -- All the time
Handguns -- It's plain base as cast if I can, with tumble lube when I'm replacing my ammo stash..
Without a lot of boring detailed blather, I find tumble lube time consuming and messy and doesn't produce the consistent results at the target that I can get with stick lube and a sizer when used for my rifle bullets. And I like the ability of the above sizers to seat gas checks flat and square every time.
R
Agree with R. Dupraz on tumble lube. Never liked the mess or the results. I have 4 lube/sizers. Lyman 450 was my first one, bought new and now is the dedicated black powder luber. I have one RCBS original Lub-o-matic, bought used for $40, that has White Label's BAC in it. And two RCBS LAM 2's, both bought used. One is a dedicated sizer only with some of the parts removed for nose first sizing and the other has LBT Blue soft in it. I have never experimented with powder coating.
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Greetings,
Yes, occasionally I use the lubrisizer. However, all I cast at the present time are for my 45-70s. Normally I use pan lubing with SPG, but every once in a while I again use the lubrisizer. The biggest reason is my die is just too small for good fit of the bullet to the rifling. I could either order a new die, but Lyman does not carry the size I need, have a new die made or check with other makers, hone out the die I have, or, cheapest, continue to pan lube which has given me my best groups so far (under 3 inches at 100 yards using BP and original sights). Maybe sometime I will get another die, or when I start casting for other rifles get dies. If I do that, I may have to get another lubrisizer for lube other than SPG. Meantime, what I have works for me.
TK
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Does any one ever PC and size in a Lube-Sizer ?
Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.
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I started our in 1959 with a Lyman 45 and today use a pair of Lyman 450s. I am still old school.
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The key to using a luber/sizer for any cast bullet including 22 cal is to make sure you use a nose punch that fits the profile of the bullet.
Because I said so!
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I have four:
Pan lubrication for me has been a consistent disaster
Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest
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Because there is no standardization on muzzle loaders I must size my .50 caliber bullets to .499 to fit in the tight bore that Fred Rodney designed for the GA-93 Magnum rifle. Otherwise, I'm relegated to sabot use with 44 cal. pistol bullets.
I shoot, therefore I am
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I have one Lyman 450 and several Lee push-through's plus a bunch of push-through's I made. Almost all of the lube I use now is home-made and most of the time either dipped or pan lubed. Squid
"Squid Pro Quo"
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I have a Lyman 450 that isn't even mounted on my bench. It is my fault because when I built the bench's 18 yrs ago I put the wrong top on. Everything except my muzzle-loader is lubed with WLL 45-45-10, and sized in a Lee or NOE push through die which seats the gas checks just fine. THe Muzzle-loader is pan lubed with SPG and sized in a Lee push through. eventually I will get around to buying a heater for the 450 and mounting the set up on a bench, but for now It all works quite well for me.
Squid is excellent bait, and a lot easier to fly line (no weight) than anchovies.
B.E.Brickey
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I've lubed enough Bullets lately that I've finished out the last of the 50/50 in my old Lyman 450 and am using WLL BAC, shoot's clean & very little smoke.
That being said, the 1000 rounds of .44mag Cowboy ammo that I loaded up for my Chiropractor Buddy is now getting shot up. I loaded new starline brass with a N.O.E. #TL432-240-RF cast of #2, sized in a Lee .430 sizer and lubed with WLL 45/45/10. they end up being .4305dia.
My Buddy has fired about 350rds in Matches and is very happy with the easier clean-up. I guess maybe his previous bullet source didn't cast/size/lube properly. There is no longer any leading problem.
I don't know if it's the lube or the Beautifully/Perfectly Bullets cast by My humble self.
It's my 1st experience with Tumble Lubing. Works pretty darn good.
I've also mastered Powder Coating.
But I'm not giving up My old Lyman 450. I think I just like doing it the way I grew up using my DAD'S Star & Lyman 45.
Something very satisfying about Loading/Shooting a bullet Lubed/Sized in a yellow Brass case. Kinda a link to the old Buffalo hunters and my Grandfather teaching his Sons about HandLoading using a Single cavity mold, pan lubing and a 310 tong tool.
Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.
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I've never tumble lubed a bullet in my life! I currently use a 40's vintage Star lubrisizer, a 60's vintage lyman 450 and a 2007 vintage RCBS lubrisizer! No reason to try anything new!
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Always have, always will. Sixty years hunting, exclusively with homecast projectiles. A hand me down Ideal #5 sized and applied some "Best "Lube". Even through my days of competition in High Power and Long Range, when cast projectiles were forced aside for wins, some "Best Lube" was applied to the jacketed projectile. With those two mentioned disciplines as exceptions, all my competitive shooting was done using a Lyman 450 sized and "Best Lube" lubed homecast projectile. I know, I know, competitive shooting is designed around us ego driven alphas'. Competitive shooting also sorts out in quick order, what does not work! My shooting prowess is detailed in many other posts within this and other venue, so the chest pounding will be short. My wins come almost exclusively using cast projectiles competing against jacketed projectiles. In competition, quite often it is only myself using cast. One lube is all I have and use. While three different Lyman/Ideal lubrisizers are owned by me, one is out on loan and the #5 is on permanent display. My age deterioration is what is now pulling me down in ranking, not equipment, not technique nor lube. You folks keep hammering away and maybe discover the grail.
Roy
Shoot often, Shoot well
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Got my first Lyman 450 in '68 and have been using it and 3 other Lyman 450s ever since. I have one filled with my own BP lube, one with BAC for handgun bullets, one with 2500+ and one with Javelina (still have a few tubes left). None are permanently attached to the loading bench as I C clamp whichever I am going to use to the edge of the bench. The bench was made to do that.
I also TL with LLA and find it works well, especially when light coats are applied and it is allowed to thoroughly dry after each coat. I use it on some TL bullets if they are going to be sized down more than .002". However, my 38, 41 and 44 TL bullets are most often sized and lubed in the Lyman 450 with BAC.
I have made it a habit to just TL commercial cast handgun bullets that have a hard wax lube with LLA. That most often prevents leading or at least reduces it to a manageable level that cleans out easily.
Doubt I will give up my 450s and might even pick up another one or a 4500.
LMG
Concealment is not cover.........
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I don't conventionally lube many bullets these days as powder coating fits the type of shooting I do very well. I do have a Saeco lube-sizer and it has always preformed to expectations. Most of my sizing is done using the Noe push through bushings and the Lee push through dies.. As to seating the gas checks (homemade aluminum) the Noe gas check seating die is just the ticket for seating the checks tight and square 99% + success. They do however still need to be run through a sizer after application to crimp them on.. Gp
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I have a Lyman 450 & two 45's. I made lube heaters for all . . . love 'em! I also have Lee push through dies coupled with LLA. Love them too!
If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.
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I use the 450 to do all my boolits ,the only time I use Alox is when I use 00 buckshot for my 30cal ,other then that the 450 is all I use to lube and size. Also to put my GC on also. I make my own NRA lube with ATF.
I had to have the handle threads replace on my 450 for all the use . I had my gunsmith fix it for me.
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Just finished casting, sizing, lubing over 1,000 (55 gr Lee bullets). These are a pain because they are so small but I've got Spring ground squirrel shoots coming up. I shoot them at 2000 fps in several .223/5.56 rifles at 1 minute of angle accuracy.
Because I said so!
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