Bullet Design - Bore Rider Variations

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Wm Cook posted this 20 February 2022

Like most everyone getting into cast accuracy with a long gun I found myself going down the rabbit hole of bullet fit to bore.  Believing that there isn't a great chance that I would be able to create a unique design that would set cast bullet accuracy beyond what it is I looked at what other people had created.  For reference I stuck with Accurate molds because of the CAD drawings and the flexibility for anyone to tweak existing drawings.  Since I'm working with a Production Class .308 I looked at bullets in the 200 to 230gr range. 

Accurate has 84 bullets listed that would fit in that group.  The most popular design is the bore rider which has 55 listings of which 34 are the traditional straight nose design (Sample A), 4 that are of crush design (Sample B), 10 that are hybrid and 7 that I would fit into the "Other" category. 

I'm curious if anyone has any history on these designs, possibly the correct name for them (not my "crush", "hybrid", "other"....) and the individual benefits or virtues.

As far as I can see sample A is a straight up bore rider .  This is a slight variation of the 311299. Two areas that differ from the Lyman are the .180 flat nose as Accurate produces and the slight bevel from the front driving band to the nose.  I think most all of Accurate's designs has this slight bevel where the driving band is given a short ramp into the freebore, lede or the face of the free-bore if you have a tight free-bore.  Tapers are as short as .010 but some like Tom's 31.200L are just a little longer.  This one has a .020 lead into the straight nose design.

Sample B has a similar transfer of design from the driving band into the straight nose but the taper is longer at over .050".  Almost like a ball nose or a spitzer its almost like its designed to crush into the lede as the straight bore rider nose is suported in the lands. 

Sample C is what I call a hybrid between a full out tapered nose and a bore-rider.  On this one there's a long linear taper from the front driving band to the straight bore-riding nose.  In this case the taper runs .135 which looks to me like it would run through the free-bore of most production chambers.

Sample D is confusing to me. The design is very popular because Tom's sold over 40 of them.  For the life of me I can't wrap my head around the purpose of the design from .300 to .550 where it then transfers to the bore-rider straight nose design.  And that little lube groove between .400 and .460 confuses the heck out of me.  Maybe, just maybe this has to do with CP, CG?  Probably I'm looking for something that isn't there or just not smart enough to understand its importance.

I can see the benefits of the modified bore-rider designs as it is filling the free-bore area with lead which will give the bullet more traction in the lands.  This is my attempt to inch into the subject of variations on the bore-rider design and thus bullet design in general.  Thanks, Bill Cook

 

 

A “Measured Response” is as effective as tongue lashing a stuck door.

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Wm Cook posted this 25 March 2022

Tony. Bill here. You’re post didn’t come across as soft as you intended.

To be honest, I was half way through a response back to you that I would have probably regretted when your post was pulled.

So we both learned something and we’re coming away smarter knowing that we have to be a bit more sensitive about what we say.

Thanks, Bill.

A “Measured Response” is as effective as tongue lashing a stuck door.

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MP1886 posted this 25 March 2022

Wm Cook......Bill I want to clear something up.  Sir I did not tell you to shut up about pc'ing, but according to the SCOTUS's OPINION, he said I did. I'm also not arguing with you, merely debating.  Tony

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Wm Cook posted this 25 March 2022

Well this was educational.  LBT Blue and LBT Blue Soft are from LBT Molds.  Like the White Label varieties LBT has a written description that gives a summary for its targeted use (no pun intended) and the temperature range it'll flow at.  Click on either company's name to go to their site.  I've been using Carnauba Blue for the past 5 years.  Before that was Lyman Orange.  I use a heater to get started up then shut it down when I get in the flow (darn, there goes another pun again) of things.  Thanks again, Bill. 

A “Measured Response” is as effective as tongue lashing a stuck door.

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John Alexander posted this 25 March 2022

I have just deleted a post in this thread.  In my opinion telling someone who disagrees with you to stop talking about the subject  i.e. shut up, is over the line. Disagreements are not attacks. 

John

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MP1886 posted this 24 March 2022

Here is their home page with all their products; https://www.lsstuff.com/

I don't know anything about the LBT lubes. 

 

Me and two other old Castboolit member believe LBT to be a soap based lube. I use to shoot it for high velocity stuff until I became aware of Starmet's soap based lubes. Don't use anything else now and haven't found anything that it can't do. 

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RicinYakima posted this 24 March 2022

Here is their home page with all their products; https://www.lsstuff.com/

I don't know anything about the LBT lubes. 

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Wm Cook posted this 24 March 2022

Are Wht Lbl 2500, Wht Lbl 2500+ and Wht Lbl BAC all the same??

And how about LBT Blue and LBT BlueSft. Are they the same?? Thanks Bill.

A “Measured Response” is as effective as tongue lashing a stuck door.

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Lee Guthrie posted this 24 March 2022

I "believe" Poly Coat is the only powder coating in the results.

 

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Wm Cook posted this 24 March 2022

With due respect, PC has been out long enough that if it improved accuracy it would show up in the equipment list. As far as one color being more accurate than another……..?

Now PC color effecting velocity I can handle. I think blue would be the fastest. Yellow obviously the slowest. Just kidding. Thanks, Bill.

A “Measured Response” is as effective as tongue lashing a stuck door.

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MP1886 posted this 24 March 2022

Match reports can only give you so much.  But if the equipment list is even 80% accurate sometimes you'll see indications of what works.  

Here's an example.  In jacketed benchrest competition bullet choice is still the wild wild west.  A number of shooters list "Self" as the maker.  But its not so with what powders is used in 6PPC jacketed benchrest. 133 has been the choice for 30 years. 

Here's the results from last years Nationals. I'm not up to speed on lubes (I've got my hands full trying to catch a lot of other greased pigs running around the pen) so the PC names don't jump out at me. 

So can anyone tell me if there are any PC'd on this list? I have to ask this because if powder coating gave you an edge it would show up at competition. Thanks, Bill.

Sorted by Class, Rank 100 & 200 Yard 5 shot Agg, Rank 100 & 200 yard 10 shot Agg

 

Pc'ing, in my opinion is not perfected by the many users yet.  There  are so many variables there are with lubed cast. One thing left out for pc is of course the lube so that's not a variable, BUT that has been tried to see if it improves them and so far it has not.  Then there are the multitute of different brands of powder coating powders. Add to that it seems that colors make a different. More then likely that has to have something to do with the different chemical composition of the colors.  Look how long cast bullet have been in existance. Don't expect pc'ing to take the lead immediately.  The thing that gave me hope is that some major ammunition manufacturers are selling powder coated ammo.  

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Wm Cook posted this 24 March 2022

Match reports can only give you so much.  But if the equipment list is even 80% accurate sometimes you'll see indications of what works.  

Here's an example.  In jacketed benchrest competition bullet choice is still the wild wild west.  A number of shooters list "Self" as the maker.  But its not so with what powders is used in 6PPC jacketed benchrest. 133 has been the choice for 30 years. 

Here's the results from last years Nationals. I'm not up to speed on lubes (I've got my hands full trying to catch a lot of other greased pigs running around the pen) so the PC names don't jump out at me. 

So can anyone tell me if there are any PC'd on this list? I have to ask this because if powder coating gave you an edge it would show up at competition. Thanks, Bill.

Sorted by Class, Rank 100 & 200 Yard 5 shot Agg, Rank 100 & 200 yard 10 shot Agg

A “Measured Response” is as effective as tongue lashing a stuck door.

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Larry Gibson posted this 24 March 2022

Ric

I couldn't agree more, lots more testing and "working the problems" needs doing on numerous topics.  Been doing lots of testing for years but sometimes I get tired, want to pass the torch to others, so to speak, and just want to go shooting.......

LMG

 

Concealment is not cover.........

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Larry Gibson posted this 24 March 2022

MP1886 posted this 12 hours ago

 

Larry I was talking to gear months ago about pc'ing. We had a falling out, but I got enough to get me going.  I believe I may have exceeded his accuracy level. I think his leverl was 1.5 or so at high velocity.  I'm definitely at one inch and approaching .5 moa.  It does have some merit. 

 

Sounds intriguing, details?  Perhaps another thread?

LMG

 

Concealment is not cover.........

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OU812 posted this 24 March 2022

Grease cookie has more effect of conditioning barrel than traditional lube grooves only. I have some experience using lbt soft grease cookie in bottle neck cases...more testing needed.

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RicinYakima posted this 24 March 2022

Reaching for a gold ring on the merry-go-round has lots of failures. Only the strong keep looking and working on the problem and inches us up to better precision. Don't fight and bicker, just keep working the problems. 

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MP1886 posted this 24 March 2022

Larry I was talking to gear months ago about pc'ing. We had a falling out, but I got enough to get me going.  I believe I may have exceeded his accuracy level. I think his leverl was 1.5 or so at high velocity.  I'm definitely at one inch and approaching .5 moa.  It does have some merit. 

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Larry Gibson posted this 24 March 2022

Certainly, have to agree with Ian's; " testing dozens upon dozens of formulas, compiling data, and studying the effects of many different lube ingredients begins to paint a picture of what substances work and which ones don't."

I conducted a test sufficiently to prove which lube(s) to use at HV which are readily available without a lot of at home "witchcrafting".  Yes, I've made a couple of "home brews" myself but found it really wasn't worth the effort as I found no improvement over several commercial lubes available.  Especially after reading the long lengthy trials and tribulations on the boolet and artful forums the now "artfull" crew has gone to.  Can't say there really has been any improvement for all the effort.  Actually, one of that artful crew has given up on lube and is PCing.  

All that, whatever they chose to use, is fine with me.  I keep reading their results, especially gear's results with PC, hoping to see a "breakthrough" that is worth using.  Haven't yet but I keep watching.  

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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MP1886 posted this 24 March 2022

I know most you men have read this and know it, especially Larry Gibson. Larry here's one from you're favorite "little engineer":

The Basement Articles #6: Cast bullet lubrication


After more than four years of non-stop testing by my myself and a few other dedicated accuracy enthusiasts, and an ongoing, 2400-some post thread on another site documenting the endeavor, I'm going to attempt to condense the essential information we've gathered about cast bullet lubrication into a single post.


I think I might even be able to do it in a single sentence: An effective cast bullet lubricant provides a fluid film barrier between the bullet and barrel during the firing event, leaves the surface of the bore the same condition shot-to-shot, and completely departs the bullet at the muzzle to prevent balance disturbances farther downrange.


Sounds simple, doesn't it?


I thought for many years that the most important qualities a bullet lube could possess were the correct "lubricity", or slickness, and the correct overall viscosity for the pressure and velocity of the load. I also thought that lube acted somewhat as a "ballistic stop leak", to put it in Glen Fryxell's terminology.


While I maintain that lube does actually help a teeny, tiny bit to obturate the bullet, I think it's on a much smaller scale than I once did. As for lubricity and viscosity, I have a different way of looking at that now, too. If a lube is too slippery, it can behave unpredictably in the bore, causing the bullet to stutter and skip, or even hydroplane as a car can on a wet, uneven road. Viscosity, defined as resistance to flow, is less important than shear stability and what Runfiverun and Eutectic have recently brought up with the subject of "wipe pressure".


Eutectic's concept of Consistency Of Residuals Encountered, or CORE, is the solid gold key to achieving an accurate-shooting bullet lubricant. Building a lube formula that leaves the bore in a stable, repeatable condition shot after shot, in any weather, any temperature, five seconds after the last shot from a hot barrel or the first shot from a cold barrel five days later does more for accuracy than just about any other single factor I can think of. Observing the residue around the first bullet hole in a target fired from a cold barrel previously fouled with the same lube tells a tale, as does where that first shot lands compared to the following shots in the group. Observing what's left in the bore by a given lube also gives us clues, and testing dozens upon dozens of formulas, compiling data, and studying the effects of many different lube ingredients begins to paint a picture of what substances work and which ones don't.


The last factor I mentioned in the first post has proven to be very important, too. I started devising "jettison tests" a few years ago where I shoot through clean cardboard at a distance of just a few inches to observe the pattern and and size of the lube droplets, and also observe how dirty they are, and the relative state of the lube as it flew off, or failed to fly off of the bullet. I look for a dirty, atomized mist. Chunks of clean lube show that at least the bulk of it wasn't reaching the liquid state under pressure, and therefore not doing any good. Making it out of the gun and flying out of the grooves in chunks can slightly destabilize the bullet and open up groups. Making it halfway or more to the target before losing all of the lube, or making it to the target with a few bits still in the grooves is even worse. It may not sound like much, but a speck of lube hanging in the edge of a groove at 150,000 rpm or more can play hoc with accuracy. A lube that goes liquid in the barrel is likely to purge more consistently each shot, not hurt things if a blob is blown ahead of the bullet and "run over" later down the tube, and wipe more completely away each shot leaving less behind to affect the next shot. Leaving a minimum behind is the easiest way to control the effects of WHAT is left behind.


Waxes have been our nemesis from the start. The current evolution of Thick 'n' Thin, or TnT lube, which is essentially an ester-based, NLGI #6+ sodium brick grease, leaves very little behind, is soft, jettisons well, flows well in the cold yet won't melt even at take-your-skin-right-off temperatures, has very little bleed, doesn't build up in the barrel, doesn't leave enough oil behind to cause cyclic purging, and works at low and fairly high velocities. Another formula, which has proven over the past couple of years to be up to all of the aforementioned tasks and has done even better at high velocity is another soap lube, experiment #68, or "SL-68". Member JonB has been making and testing this formula along with myself and Brad, and some other advantages we have observed with this formula is how "dry" it shoots, meaning that it leaves little to no oily residue on the outside of revolvers, in the gas systems of self-loading guns, or in the action/magazines of self-loading pistols. It has a melt point of nearly 300 degrees F, quite the advantage in hot summer weather, yet in below-freezing cold, the lube remains pliable. In tests from 105F to minus 7F it has held its own. While the "Quest" for a truly universal, all weather, all temperature, all load level lube that can tolerate a variety of bore finishes and lube groove designs well may never be fulfilled, we have a few things that fill the bill pretty well so far.

Ian

Link to Article #7:http://www.artfulbullet.com/index.php?threads/article-7-crafting-accurate-ammunition.139/   Sounds like he grapped some stuff off of Fry. 

 

 

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Wm Cook posted this 21 March 2022

Two old guys talking.

First one says “ I just got the best pair of hearing aids that money can buy”

Second one says “Really. That’s great. What kind are they?”

First guy looks at his watch and says “60”

Bill.

A “Measured Response” is as effective as tongue lashing a stuck door.

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Larry Gibson posted this 21 March 2022

Huh......

Concealment is not cover.........

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