New_Heat treating--does it work for accuracy

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  • Last Post 27 August 2013
billglaze posted this 24 August 2013

A few weeks ago, I posted to the forum looking for the reasons that many of the shooters used lino; asking for the reasons for the seeming superiority of lino for precision targeting, in preference to heat treated bullets. Gary and another gentleman submitted photos that seemed to show a layer of dissimilar metal (presumably hardened) on the surfaces of bullets that had been heat treated, and then sectioned for illustration. This would presume to show that only the surface was affected and hardened. After considerable cogitation, I was wondering how this could be, given that the bullets were presumably cast from a homogenous mixture in the pot. It would appear that the harder metal had somehow migrated to the outer surface of the bullet. Certainly not impossible, but, in my case, given that I oven-heat the bullets for an hour, minimum, one has to wonder why the layer would be surface only. The important implication being that, after heat-treating, only the bullet surface would be affected. But wait, there's more. Several other folks sent in narratives stating that they had, in fact, sectioned treated bullets, and found (I believe the same degree of) hardness had been found throughout the bullet. The reason I have raised this question is that, while experimenting to try to find competitive loads for CBA competition, is to find if I should be experimenting with lino bullets only. So far, I can tell no difference between the HT wh. wts. and lino; however, I'm not in the position of going for records with the groups I'm generating, either. One MOA 10 shot group is reason for celebrating and cartwheels. Repeatability is the problem. A 1-1/8” group followed by the same-load group of 2” is not cause for much hope. I'm still looking. (Isn't that the fun of the game?)Anyway, just tossing this out for consideration. A note from John Alexander has given me still another direction to go in. I'm loving it!

Bill Glaze

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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pat i. posted this 24 August 2013

What are you shooting and how fast? What load are you using? What class are you going to shoot in?

If you're shooting 1 1/8 to 2 inch groups with a light production gun you're on the right track. If doing it with a bench gun not so much and it's a lot more than your choice of alloy.

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billglaze posted this 24 August 2013

I'm shooting a couple of rifles built for High Power co.petition. One is a 308 Win and the other is an '06' Custom built about 12 lbs. Starting to get good results with 4895 and Lyman 311299 sized to .308 but still looking for the end of the rainbow! Bill wars

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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billglaze posted this 24 August 2013

Don't know how that screwy last name got there, but disregard.

Bill Glaze

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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pat i. posted this 24 August 2013

Not enough information but if the guns were built instead of bought they're out of the production class and the heavy class is a tough game. My best advice would be to call H.L. Yarborough to find out his Charlotte club's match schedule and then pack up your stuff and drive the 100 miles or so to attend one. Don't worry about how you shoot because the information you'll pick up from attending a match and speaking to people face to face will more than make up for any embarrassment you might feel if you don't have a good day.

Getting back to the lino vs HTWW thing I shot heat treated WW exclusively when I was active and never felt I was giving anything up to lino. And that was in a lot of different cartridges at a lot of different speeds.

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badgeredd posted this 24 August 2013

IMHO, going from what has been stated thus far, I'd guess there is more than alloy to be concerned with. My guess is that your lube may be a fairly big contributor to the problem. I have a different interest, but have found that a little manipulating of the basic COWW alloy will shoot every bit as accurately as lino at a fraction of the current price of lino.

HTWW alloy is very capable of fine accuracy as Pat said. I alloy my metals to perform accurately in a hunting situation, so I am willing to give up some of the hardness, but still require a toughness in the alloy to hold the rifling in high pressure loads. I am currently working at getting good groups with full house 358 Norma Magnum loads and having modest success.

Edd

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billglaze posted this 24 August 2013

A little more information for you to work with. Currently, believe it or not, I seem to be getting the best, most dependable accuracy with 30 gr. 4895 and the Lyman 311299 bullet, sized to 308 and seated hard into the throat. Takes effort to close the bolt handle. WW BHN is ~30+ on an LBT tester, that seems to be accurate enough; pure lead tests ~5, ww as cast seem to be around 11, lino reads 22; all right on the expected numbers. The load just chronographed at around 1950, (in the '06) which is faster than I want to shoot. I'm going to try to drop back to around 1650 or so; if the 4895 doesn't burn clean, then it's on to 3031, or 4198, 4227,or, as a last resort, a pistol powder yet to be determined. For lube, I'm using Red which is, I believe, carnauba based. I'm not getting significant leading; after scrubbing the barrels, I have found only 2 miniscule specks of lead on the patch. Very, very small; took a magnifying glass to see them. So, right now, I am focusing on what the rifles seem to like best load and velocity-wise. BTW: One has an Obermeyer barrel, the other an Apex barrel that is a gain twist; final pitch is 10". Both are, of course, bull barrels. Just a little more info to chew on. Bill Glaze

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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LWesthoff posted this 25 August 2013

Bill: I shoot 28.0 gr. H4895 behind a 311299 lino bullet sized .310, in my production Savage Model 12 .308W. Best 100 yd. 5 shot group so far is 0.806". Shot 7 five shot groups that day for an avg. 1.062". I use the same bullet sized .311 in my issue 03-A3, with 28 gr. Varget. If I'm doing my part, it will keep 5 rds. between 5” & 6” at 200. I tried heat treating WW bullets but couldn't see any advantage over lino and decided it wasn't worth the extra work.

Note: My 311299 mold is an old one, and it casts bullets around .3115-.312. That mold was made before Lyman started making two sizes of 299 bullet; 311299 and 314299.

Wes

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billglaze posted this 25 August 2013

Wes: Do you use “jammed” bullets? That is, are they seated in the case projecting enough that it requires some effort to close the bolt? This helps assure a tight seal around the bullet, preventing (at least conventional wisdom says so) gas cutting on firing, from what Earl Naramore refers to as “young gas.” His term, not mine, but very descriptive.

Bill Glaze

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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billglaze posted this 25 August 2013

Pat i: I went to one of H.L.'s matches a while back. He was very cordial, and I learned from him just how to shoot in a CBA match; I've been shooting in different disciplines of matches since I was 14, (don't ask) and it was very self-explanatory, once you watched and saw what was happening. As far as picking up any hints on loading/loads, everybody was pretty close-mouthed about that. One fellow to whom I inquired about his choice of bullets, wouldn't even tell me what it was; I had already recognized it as a Lyman 311322, and he didn't seem too terribly pleased when I noted it. So, nothing about the technical stuff came out of that visit. But, I'm not resentful about it. After all some mojo shows up that nobody knows, or probably they figure they'll never see again, right in the middle of a match, and asks them about their secrets that have maybe taken them hundreds of rounds to figure out. Are they going to be reticent? Sure. I would be also. I remember when I was racing and building engines. I was very reluctant to answer questions from a non-customer; if he wants my secrets, let's do some business, then I'll tell him what he wants to know. At least,as long as I feel he won't be blabbing it to my competition!<G> BTW: The Charlotte range is beautiful; if I understand correctly, the Charlotte club has another range downtown indoors, presumably for pistol. Also, they have a beautiful lounge/clubhouse building on the rifle/shotgun range. Lots of work has gone into the place, and it shows. Totally pleasant, and impressive, worthwhile visit.

Bill Glaze

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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LWesthoff posted this 25 August 2013

Re the question about “jammed” bullets: Yes, I seat my bullets out to require just a little bit of effort to close the bolt. As far as sealing the bore from “young” gas.....I have my doubts about that. If using lino or heat treated WW, I think you would have to use one heck of a lot of force to jam a bullet that hard far enough into the lands to seal off the grooves, too. I think you would wind up re-seating the bullet in the case, first, and not always to the same depth.

The reason I seat out far enough to get positive contact with the rifling is to start each bullet, as nearly as possible, aligned exactly the same.

Wes

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pat i. posted this 25 August 2013

Bill I'm really surprised to hear that you thought the guys in Charlotte were tight lipped. One thing I always liked about cast bullet match shooters was their willingness to share information and ideas. Maybe I just started with the right crowd. Ed Doonan was willing to talk about cast bullets as long as you were willing to carry on a conversation. Maybe I was just lucky and it's not like that everywhere but I hope that's not the case.

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John Alexander posted this 26 August 2013

Bill,

I, like Pat, am surprised and discouraged that you found some CBA members secretive about information at a CBA match. I am sure that isn't the attitude you will find at most CBA matches. Perhaps you just talked to the wrong people. If not, that's not the way it's supposed to be and such childish behavior hurts the CBA and the sport of cast bullet shooting.

CBA competition isn't NASCAR with big money, or any money, involved. Since none of us are going to make any money or gain any glory by winning a match, why have secrets?

There is no good reason not to be helpful to shooters wanting to improve their scores. Instead it is to our mutual advantage to encourage and help each other and especially to help newcomers.

Our “Nature and Purpose” printed on the back of every Fouling Shot says that CBA's “central purpose is to help shooters enjoy cast bullet shooting.” If we can't do that and enjoy the sport ourselves, what is the point?

John

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billglaze posted this 26 August 2013

Let me assure you all, that I enjoyed the match that H.L. put on; he was very affable and informative. The others were very friendly and, considering I was a stranger, certainly didn't do or say anything to make me feel unwelcome. It is possible, (entirely) that I simply didn't ask the right questions, or, also possible, that I got so technical that the shooter actually did not feel that he could give me a correct answer. And also, remember that they were in the middle of a match, and seemed to be a very competitive bunch of shooters. (Which, I feel, is good.) Please understand that at no time was I treated in anything but a friendly manner. Very likeable bunch of like-minded individuals. Will I be back? Answer: emphatically, YES! But, not until I am able to shoot groups/scores that won't embarrass the sport, and myself!<G> Again: everyone was very friendly, and I enjoyed attending the match--a lot!

And Wes: Thanks for your reply. Together with what John wrote previously, and what Duane wrote to me some time ago, I may be shooting bullets that are actually too hard (bhn ~30) to properly seal off the gases before I send some molten lead down the bore, ahead of the bullet. If this is the case, as it well might be, I don't understand why I am unable to scrub more lead out of the bore when I clean. As long as I'm coming up with personal puzzles, I have had excellent results with 5744--for a few shots. Sometimes as few as 5, sometimes 12 or so. Cleaning the bore requires considerable effort in pushing through a patch or brush. A huge amount of black ensues on the patch, taking repeated treatments with solvent to dissolve. Has anybody else noticed this (what I consider to be) excessive powder fouling? Any ideas on cause? I believe it to be severe enough to affect and destroy accuracy. Same thing in my 6mm 40XB, .308, and .30-'06. Thanks, all.

Bill Glaze

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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John Alexander posted this 27 August 2013

Bill,

I used 5744 for cast bullets for years and was well satisfied but when I ran out of the original and bought a jug of more recent vintage I had the same problem with hard black fouling that almost prevented getting the first patch through and was hard to remove.

John

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billglaze posted this 27 August 2013

John, thanks for the heads-up on 5744. I note that Lyman uses 5744 a lot for their cast bullet shooting. In fact, some of their remarks indicate that it's THE powder to use for accuracy. I'll bet that it's the older production. I too had a similar buying/using experience as yours. I had bought a couple of pounds of the stuff, and had it on the shelf quite awhile before I used it. I sure figured I was on the right track. When I'd used up The original, (took quite a while, at 16 to 22 grains)I bought an 8 lb. jug. I felt as if I'd had my magic carpet yanked out from under my feet. I'm still disappointed, but at least I now know I'm not the Lone Ranger in the situation. Now, if I can just figure out how to use the stuff....... I do have a quantity of 4759 that's years old, and still shoots well, although not quite as well as the 5744. Given some time, maybe I can work up a load that will be nearly as good. We'll see. (Of course, by the time I'm through the old 4759, and get some new stuff........well, you get the idea.)

Bill

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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CB posted this 27 August 2013

billglaze wrote: John, thanks for the heads-up on 5744. I note that Lyman uses 5744 a lot for their cast bullet shooting. In fact, some of their remarks indicate that it's THE powder to use for accuracy. I'll bet that it's the older production. I too had a similar buying/using experience as yours. I had bought a couple of pounds of the stuff, and had it on the shelf quite awhile before I used it. I sure figured I was on the right track. When I'd used up The original, (took quite a while, at 16 to 22 grains)I bought an 8 lb. jug. I felt as if I'd had my magic carpet yanked out from under my feet. I'm still disappointed, but at least I now know I'm not the Lone Ranger in the situation. Now, if I can just figure out how to use the stuff....... I do have a quantity of 4759 that's years old, and still shoots well, although not quite as well as the 5744. Given some time, maybe I can work up a load that will be nearly as good. We'll see. (Of course, by the time I'm through the old 4759, and get some new stuff........well, you get the idea.)

Bill

Bill, something you might try is to fill a powder measurer full of 5744. Then dump it out into a large cookie sheet and set it in a dry ventilated place for a few days to vent off gunpowder solvents. It might help? Some 'J' bullet BR champions claim it helps tune their favorite keg of new powder....Dan

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billglaze posted this 27 August 2013

Well, it's sure worth a try. As of now, I'm sitting with almost 8 lbs . of powder that I can't use. At least, I can't use it for more than 5 shots at a time!<G> Thanks for the idea.

Bill Glaze

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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