Accuracy question, undersized bore rider

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  • Last Post 30 October 2013
Tuner posted this 08 July 2013

Have used cast bullets in my .44 to hunt with for the past 30 years with excellent results. After reading many posts here I decided to try them in my TC Contender, 24 inch barrel, 1/10 twist chambered for the 30 Bellm. This is basically a rimmed 308 Win. using .444 Marlin brass formed in a 308 die loaded to a max of 40,000 psi. With 150 gr. J bullets this is a MOA barrel. I like heavy for caliber cast bullets and bought some Hunter 193 gr. GC bullets sized to .311. Figured I would try some at .311, .310 and .309 to see what shots the best. When I was cleaning and de-coppering the barrel this weekend I inserted several of the 193 gr bullets into the muzzle of the barrel to check fit and it rattled around like a pea in a whistle; miked the bore rider portion and it was .294. My gut feel is that with light loads, say 9 gr. Unique, this bullet might shoot ok, but push them to hunting velocities and they will probably come out of the barrel shaped like a banana and produce marginal accuracy at best. Before I start stuffing cases and waste a bunch of primers and powder I wanted to get some opinions on how to proceed with these bullets / type of powder, etc. and find out if the situation is workable. No I have not shot any yet, I know each rifle is it's own entity and they may surprise me but I would like to get some idea of if they might be salvageable if they do not shoot well.

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Ed Harris posted this 08 July 2013

I have not had success with undersized bore riders unless the nose was quite short, and the groove diameter body long, to provide suit able alignment.

In short-bodied bullets in which the shank is less than about 1-1/2 times groove diameter, you need the forepart large enough to engage the rifling, as the “steering end". If the forepart is not guided positively by thr lands, it will slump assymetrically during initial shot start and accuracy will be affected.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Tuner posted this 12 August 2013

Ed, thank for the response. Just put my Mitutoyo to one of the bullets and the LOA is 1.107; portion in front of the crimp groove is .4775 and the base to the crimp groove is about .630. I really wanted to use these bullets to hunt with and was hoping for accuracy at about 1800 FPS but I do fear that I will get “slump” as you said when pushed that hard. Will see.

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Pigslayer posted this 12 August 2013

Exactly what Ed said I know, I've been there.

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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mckg posted this 13 August 2013

Would it be possible to patch the nose with adhesive paper?

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Michael K posted this 13 August 2013

Just make sure the sticky part is on the bullet, wouldn't want it to get stuck in the barrel.

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R. Dupraz posted this 13 August 2013

beagle the mold

RD

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highstandard40 posted this 13 August 2013

R. Dupraz wrote: beagle the mold

RD

How much luck would you have beagling a mold to add .006” to the bullet nose? You would have a bullet that would be egg shaped and the body would be much too large. Or am I missing something?

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Pigslayer posted this 13 August 2013

This guy will do a good job in opening up your mold.

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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Lee Wiggins posted this 13 August 2013

Turner , Using a copper tubing cutter, cut a shallow groove just behind the ogive at the nose. It plows up a little metal on both sides of the cutter wheel which is ironed down flat by the two idler wheels. you now have two narrow bands that are over size of the original bullet nose diam. Do not cut very deep or the bands will be way oversize. This is something I have been thinking about and your situation is the perfect opportunity to try it. It will center the nose of the bullet in the bore before firing. Test some bullets against same bullet without the tubing cutter treatment and see if it works. Lee Wiggins

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4060may posted this 13 August 2013

go here http://www.castbulletassoc.org/viewtopic.php?id=8776&forumid=106&highlight=fouling+shot+index

download the file, open it and search “bump"

a quick look  and I got issues, 81, 96, 120, 126, 130, 143, 226

some even have drawing to make a bumping die using a Lyman 4500

the upset idea has promise, similar to the DD band from NEI

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4060may posted this 13 August 2013

not too bright the numbers are rows not issues duhh

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R. Dupraz posted this 13 August 2013

Highstandard40:

Beagling the Mold?

Maybe it would work, maybe not. But how do you know one way or the other unless you try it?

RD

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Pigslayer posted this 13 August 2013

Pigslayer wrote:

This guy will do a good job in opening up your mold.

BUMP.

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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Chargar posted this 14 August 2013

Nothing new to add except agreement;

  1. Like Ed, I find poor fitting noses with long nose bore riding bullets is a set up for disappointment.

  2. Walt Melander of NEI came up with his “Double D” molds with a small drive band on the nose for support and guidance. The guy at Hollow Point Molds will put on of these on your mold and rescue it.

  3. I posit that the chief reason early Ideal designs like 311291 and 311284 have survived and prospered for over 100 years, is they body is at least as long as the nose. Therefore the body can give good alignment is the nose is a smidge undersize. Of course a proper body and nose fit is always the best way to go.

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cityboy posted this 14 August 2013

I found that the 311284 shot much better when the front section rides the bore. I never did have much luck with the 311291 or similar bullets from Lee.

Jim

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Tuner posted this 24 October 2013

I appreciate the information regarding undersized boar riders, pretty much what I anticipated.

The information about who can open up a mold is good if I need it in the future; however, as I said in the OP these were bullets I purchased from Hunter that quite frankly I will probably throw in my next melt of WW as I figure they will be a waste of time to try and develop an accurate hunting load.

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jr460 posted this 24 October 2013

Have shot 1000's of this bullet in 308,3030,3006,300 mags and 30 40 will shoot under 1 inch AT 100 YDS 1500 fps with out GC and will do 1 to 1.5 inch at hunting vel 2000fps with GC As pointer out the body of the bullet is long enough to not mater about the nose riding. Load up and give a try JR

1000 yards easy

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Chargar posted this 24 October 2013

True long nose bore riders do not do well at all unless the nose is large enough to be supported by the barrel lands.

Some of the older Barlow/Ideal designs like 311334, 311284 and 311291 will do “OK” if the nose is a smidge too small because of their longer bodies.

While these designs will do “OK", they will do considerable better if the nose is supported by the barrel lands.

I dote on oversized molds with large noses. If they are too large I can size them. I have nose sizing dies of .301 and .302 for use in my various 30 caliber rifles.

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 28 October 2013

Chargar wrote: True long nose bore riders do not do well at all unless the nose is large enough to be supported by the barrel lands.

Some of the older Barlow/Ideal designs like 311334, 311284 and 311291 will do “OK” if the nose is a smidge too small because of their longer bodies.

While these designs will do “OK", they will do considerable better if the nose is supported by the barrel lands.

I dote on oversized molds with large noses. If they are too large I can size them. I have nose sizing dies of .301 and .302 for use in my various 30 caliber rifles.

How about a few pictures.  Or better yet a thread on nose sizing!

 

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Chargar posted this 28 October 2013

Both of my nose sizing dies were made by Buckshot over on the cast bullet board.

The first is a reloading press mounted die where the bullet are pushed in nose first and then tapped out with a rod. By setting the heights of the die at the top of the ram stroke, you can control how far down the nose you want to size.

I used this die in sizing the top two bands of 311467 to ride the lands. This has worked very well for me.

The second die works in a Lyman or RCBS machine and looks just like any lube sizer die except it has no holes for the lube. The bullet is pushed in nose first and ejected with the tool upstroke. This die contains shallow body size cylindrical portion to keep the bullet aligned. I had this cut .311. So, bullets need to be sized .310 or .311 before having the nose sized.

A few years ago, I tested two 311291 molds of varous vintages. One threw bullets .311 X .302 and the other dropped it's bullets .315 X .304. I sized the larger bullets .311 X .302 and shot the two bullets on the same day to see how much damage nose and body sizing did to the bullets. I did size the bodies in a nose first push through sizing arrangement.

I used a very accurate Browning Traditional Hunter SS rifle in 30-30. I fired 4 ten shot groups with each bullet. This came to a total of 80 rounds fired. I would have to look up the powder charge, but it was in the area of 14/2400.

I took the targets back home and measured the size of the 8 groups. I found the sized bullets fired groups a hair smaller (average) than the unsized bullets. The difference was very small and could have been made by a couple of rounds a fraction of an inch out of the group by the shooter (me).

Again, I would have to look it up but both bullets gave about 1.75 MOA (100 yards) average of the 4 targets.

I suppose if one were shooting an unlimited class bench rest rifle, the difference between sized and unsized bullets would have been greater. But that day in my sporter, sizing didn't matter.

This took place in 2006 or 2007 and I have ceased to worry about the effect of bullet sizing since that time. I think how you size is more important that how much you size. Of course having a bullet throw a bullet the exact size you want is the best of all world. However, I am plenty happy with a larger bullets I can size the nose and body the way I want them. I have never tried bumping up bullets, so maybe that works as well, I don't know.

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 28 October 2013

THANKS!

So, if I have the choice of making a die to size my bullets, neck and body or neck only, would you recommend making a die for 7/8-14 (or the larger 1-1/4) or for a lube-sizer?

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RicinYakima posted this 28 October 2013

I have both 7/8 X 14 and Lyman Lube size; if you are going to use linotype or harder, choose the big one. Lube and sizers just aren't strong enough for that much force. IMHO, Ric

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Chargar posted this 29 October 2013

I am going to have to go along with Ric on this one, for the reasons he stated. There is nothing like the compound linkage of a big reloading press to do hard work.

I use my cast steel RCBS A2 for this stuff and it is a delight.

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 29 October 2013

OK. Another approach.

I have several 'bore riding' moulds, of which MOST are too small on the bore-riding portion.

Would you a) toss the mould in the lathe and open up some or all of the nose, or b) build a bump die to fix the under-diameter portion?

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RicinYakima posted this 29 October 2013

If I were a good set-up man, not saying I am, I would put it into a four-jaw chuck, center the cavity and open up the nose as far forward as possible. Walt at NEI did this for the mould that I used to win the 2006 Scoped Military nationals. FWIW, Ric

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RDUPRAZ posted this 30 October 2013

I have been following this thread with some interest. Especially after Charger wrote about his nose sizing dies. The old K-98 7.62 Mauser that I use in the military matches likes the RCBS 30-165-S. And lately, a new Rem. 700 Police .308 seems to as well. So far anyway.

After going through the usual process of bedding, trigger pulls, cases. loads etc, etc, the final element that is holding both rifles back is the nose of that 30-165-S mold. It is out of round by .002” and small by about .002". Lapping the driving bands out in the mold has fixed the throat problem.

When sizing in a Saeco, I bump the noses by feel, a bit to try for about .002"-.003” increase in size. But of course it does nothing about the out of roundness. And the bumping only increases the size of the nose at the front end. This works but is an iffy thing at best as to consistancy.

So finally, I thought that a custom mold was the answer. A well known maker assured me that he could duplicate the 30-165-S but the end result was not even close.

So, as of right now, I am stuck again with the same problem. Trying to come up with some solutions. Bump die, another try at a custom mold, attempting to lap the nose out???? Don't know.

Am some what limited as far as mold designs because of the short necked .308. But both rifles seem to want to shoot really well with the RCBS. It,s just that I think that they would no doubt do better if the nose of the bullet was round and it fit the lands.

Any solutions would be welcome

RD

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Chargar posted this 30 October 2013

Walt Melander, while still in El Paso, came out with his “Double D” molds. These were his standard bore rider designs with a small larger band on the nose to engrave and ride the lands.

There is a guy who hollow points molds that will add this band to your mold for a reasonable cost.

I should think this would be a better option that trying to lap out a mold nose or bump a bullet.

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Chargar posted this 30 October 2013

Walt Melander, while still in El Paso, came out with his “Double D” molds. These were his standard bore rider designs with a small larger band on the nose to engrave and ride the lands.

There is a guy who hollow points molds that will add this band to your mold for a reasonable cost.

I should think this would be a better option that trying to lap out a mold nose or bump a bullet.

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