THE (CAST) BULLET MUST FIT THE THROAT

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  • Last Post 30 December 2012
joeb33050 posted this 01 October 2012

SAAMI glossary definitions:

THROAT See Leade (Lead).

LEADE (LEAD) That section of the bore of a rifled gun barrel located immediately ahead of the chamber in which the rifling is conically removed to provide clearance for the seated bullet. Also called Throat or Ball Seat.

FREE BORE A cylindrical length of bore in a firearm just forward of the chamber in which rifling is not present. Associated with bullet jump.

It is often said that “the cast bullet must fit the throat". Using the definitions above, some chambers ex 30-30 don't have a throat. Some, ex .308 win, do. Since the throat is tapered, what does it mean, “fit the throat"? I'm interested in stock rifles and available molds, not throated barrels and swaged bullets. ? Thanks; joe b.

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RicinYakima posted this 01 October 2012

For chambers that have a throat, I think the first driving band must be equal to or larger than the diameter of the throat. If the throat is tapered, than it must be able to seal the inital gas production and provide bullet resistance and alignment. IMHO, Ric

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mrbill2 posted this 01 October 2012

I copied this from a Hornady Reloading book.  

 

mrbill2

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 02 October 2012

if the bullet doona fit... you mightsa wella quit.

ken

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tturner53 posted this 02 October 2012

So what do you do if you have extreme freebore? I just now did a chamber cast of my new 1891 Argentine 7.65x53 and the throat is .318” at the beginning and almost an inch down the bore it's still smooth at .312. Do they make a mold for that? A slug of the muzzle shows .303/.312. Filler time?

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linoww posted this 02 October 2012

When i shot one of my first CBA matches i asked Larry Jennings about bullet fit.He told me to just use the biggest nose and body as possible that will chamber without being pushed back into the case with medium neck tension and that was it.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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CB posted this 02 October 2012

tturner53 wrote: So what do you do if you have extreme freebore? I just now did a chamber cast of my new 1891 Argentine 7.65x53 and the throat is .318” at the beginning and almost an inch down the bore it's still smooth at .312. Do they make a mold for that? A slug of the muzzle shows .303/.312. Filler time? Sounds like the barrel is shot out from your description. I would use a bullet that is .318 - .3185.. It will squeeze down when fired and give you the best accuracy.

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tturner53 posted this 02 October 2012

I think you're right George. This gun isn't shot out, it's in pretty good shape. They just made them with big long throats. Makes a Weatherby look conservative in the freebore department. It'll be fun getting it worked out. This is supposed to be my new postal match #20 gun, it's an antique. EDIT; It's times like this when I miss Veral. You know he'd jump in and say, 'send me a fired case and a chamber cast...') Maybe I'll call LBT.

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Duane Mellenbruch posted this 02 October 2012

tturner just sent me an email about 30 minutes ago and is having trouble with the forum and PM's again.  He did not want anyone to think him rude for not answering the PM's.   I have at times had similar issues.  Just a FYI at his request.  Duane

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CB posted this 02 October 2012

I checked the server and the problem isnt there, perhaps there is some kind of outage between the server and him..

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 02 October 2012

pm to me hasnt worked for a while....   so i just sent a pm to myself ...i got an error saying i spelled my name wrong.....heh heh, how could that be, since i just clicked on my own button ...

i love computers

  something kinky....black powder might be involved ...

k e n

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tturner53 posted this 28 October 2012

I'm baaack! For the moment, anyway. Computer glitches of some kind. Over my head. Anyway, the '91 Argie project is still underway. I have 2 bullets and 4 powders to try. Making lots of dummies to check different combinations. I think my best shot for #20 is to copy what's working so well for others, but I would like to find something that shoots without just loading by the numbers. I have (on loan) a boolits group buy 'super fat .30' from Lee, and plenty of SR4756. If that doesn't work then it's to be 2400/316299 for the match. Time to get'r'done.

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Chargar posted this 28 December 2012

Traditional thinking is that long throats play hob with cast bullets. The bullet hits the hand and grooves at a full run and doesn't like the impact.

This is probably true, if a fellow is trying to shoot bug hole groups and there is money or pride on the table. But, for the shooter of mil-surp rifles long throats don't seem to hurt much.

I have a long love affair with Krag rifles and they have a very long throat. If you set the bullets short enough to feed through the magazine, they have a long run to hit the rifling. Doesn't seem to matter much as far as I can tell. I can do a little better by seating the bullets out and chambering them one at a time in the barrel, but what fun is that?

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frnkeore posted this 29 December 2012

this is kind of a odd question for me as it limits things to “factory” chambers and it's not asking what maybe best for accuracy.

the best factory throat is the 308 but it's lacking in that it has a 3.5 geg included leade and a huge neck dia.

as i see it the best way to attain accuracy, be it fixed or breech seated, is to start the well cast bullet off in the best alignment you can with the least distortion.

would anyone disagree with that theory?

we will start with the leade and go back to the shoulder.

the bullet hits the lands with great force and the bullet has to “take” the lands. the slower it does that, the less it will be able to distort the bullet when it impacts the bands and a longer leade (smaller angle) i.e. 1/2 deg vs 3 1/2 deg. included or slice instead of hack. i don't think 1/2 is nessasary but, i do believe 1 deg or less is. matching the bullet taper to the lead should be helpful, too for alignment.

next the freebore or ball seat (the military term for the 7.62x51. .310 isn't horrible but, you have to remember the bullet has to “seal” the entire bore to keep from gas cutting and the larger it is, the more sizing and distortion the bullet has to go through to get into the barrel proper so, .3085 - .309 would be better. or even PT&G .3082 palma freebore. here is were your sealing has to be done and you want to push the bullet into that area or have the next band touching it and be .0002 - .0005 larger.

the transition from the case mouth to the freebore, i like to be 30 deg. but, i don't think the angle is a big deal but, it does need to be smooth and deffect and burr free.

then we have the case neck, here we want it to be concentric and .0005 - .001 slip fit in the camber neck with the i. d. the same as the base band of the bullet or .0005 smaller than the base band.

add all these things together and you have a near prefectly aligned bullet (with in .0005 t.i.r. possible) w/o having to worry if the neck sizer goes off a little to one side. as most know, the fixed rule only means you have to hold the case upside down w/o the bullet falling free.

case capacity plays another roll but i won't go into that but, to say you should have over 65% loading density.

after that, you only have your load to worry about :)

frank

ps

for hunter and mil-surp, your stuck with what you have but, you can work in these directions with your cases and molds.

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frnkeore posted this 29 December 2012

i over looked one thing in my above post but, it's really not part of the chamber throat.

i consider it very important for fixed ammo and that is a bore riding nose. it won't matter quite as much in match throat. such as using the 311041 but, it makes a world of difference with most other throats mil-surp and factory chambers. the 311299 is a very good bullet to use in thoughs type chambers. base band in the case neck, front band in the freebore and a .001+ over bore size in the lands, will work about as good as you can do it thoughs type throats.

you won't get consistant heavy and unr accuracy with factory throats!

fill up the throat and neck as best you can and shoot them into the barrel and hope they swage down evenly (concentric) and then hope the gc stays on.

i shoot 98% breech seated and all i have to worry about is sealing the base band at the start of the freebore. my bullets are tapered and the spitzer ogive is the first part of that taper.

w/o gc's we are limited to <1500 in 32 cal and low 1600's in 25 cal.

frank

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John Alexander posted this 29 December 2012

Frank,

Excellent couple of posts.

Thanks for taking the time to discuss the whole issue with both factory/military and custom chambers -- first rate contribution to the forum.

Now if I can find a gunsmith to follow your first post in relining my low wall.

John

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Chargar posted this 29 December 2012

You would think I would have an understanding of human nature at my age. But, these types of threads remind me how little I do know.

We have a strong tendency not to answer the original question, but to wax eloquent on our favorite hobby horse and assert that others who do it different, just can't get good accuracy.

Very few of us are bench rest shooters that are chasing the mythical bug hole group at the end of the rainbow. Most of us are having fun with our commercial and military rifles and all of the tech talk doesn't scratch where we itch. Oh, it is OK and informative, but just not where we are at.

Here is what I know about cast bullet accuracy in commercial or military rifles....It is possible to match or exceed the best accuracy the rifle can deliver with jacketed bullet loads using cast bullets.

I like rifles and enjoy shooting them. I don't have such a warm fuzzy place in my heart for hole in paper. They just can't get my heart a racing. I am glad some folks are entranced with holes in paper, but that just isn't me.

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RicinYakima posted this 29 December 2012

Charger, You miss the point. It is not the hole (s) in the paper. It is the ability to make the holes, on demand, in the paper. It is the doing part. For us target shooters, the rest is just making noise. Ric

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pat i. posted this 29 December 2012

Ric I don't know what the original question is but I don't think Chargar's missing the point at all. I think we miss it sometimes. I've been shooting my muzzle loader lately and it's a lot of fun to just shoot something that doesn't cause me to get a case of the vapors if a 2 1/2 inch group shows up on the target. With my M 670 pb gun I'd be thrilled to death if at the present time I could shoot an 1 1/4 5 group agg. I love accurate bench rest guns as much and probably more than most people but sometimes shooting something just for the hell of it or going out to the range without crying because you didn't shoot 1/2 inch aggs, which I never could anyway, is a treat. Sometimes we tend to get all wound up when a guy asks about something like throating the barrel on a Marlin 336 because he doesn't like the one in the gun or his bullets don't fit the way he thinks they should and we have the tendency of trying to make a benchrest project out of it. Not what he's looking for.

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Chargar posted this 29 December 2012

Ric, I got the point. I want a rifle to put a bullet where I want it, be that paper or whatever. I like small groups as they tells me, the rifle likes what I am feeding it. But, I don't obsess about the whole thing.

There was a time in my life when I was a serious competition rifle shooter, now I just a rifle shooter. I spent most of my life wound up about something and trying to obtain one goal or another. Now, I just want to have fun and enjoy the day. We don't have enough days to waste any of them with self inflicted angst of any kind.

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John Alexander posted this 29 December 2012

I think Charger is right on with his second to last sentence.

” Now, I just want to have fun and enjoy the day."

I assume that is the goal for all of us. Otherwise what's the point. We sure aren't making any money, getting famous, or advancing world peace.

I'm like Pat, I like to compete sometimes and I like to shoot a whole batch of guns for the hell of it at other times.

The thing I would like to see is for people to be more tolerant of others who get their kicks in different kinds of shooting. Nothing wrong with either tin can shooters or hard core competitors. All are interesting in their own way and I hope all are “enjoying the day.” The CBA and this forum needs all kinds.

John

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