Plain Base Bullets

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  • Last Post 12 February 2011
3Lakes posted this 06 February 2011

Shooters using the 32 Miller Short have demonstrated remarkable results in PBB competions.  There are some other cases that seem like they could be good choices for this activity. They are shown below.

                                 Rim Dia Body Dia at Rim    Taper          COA 32 S&W                     0.375              0.3377          No              0.920 32 H&R Mag              0.375              0.337            No             1.075 327 Federal              0.375               0.337            No             1.200 32 Miller Short          0.440                0.379           Yes           1.274 32-20 Win                0.408                 0.353           No

Does anyone have quantitative results with either the 32 S&W, 32 H&R Mag or 327 Federal in comparison to the Miller short?

Thanks,

3 Lakes

      

          

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joeb33050 posted this 07 February 2011

In the 80s I had a Stevens 44 with a Douglas best 30 caliber barrel made up. It was chambered is 32 S&W Long, shot ~ 1 1/4” 100 yard 5 shot groups. Worked fine for offhand, not for bench. This went down the road, and I had a Ruger #1 barreled with best Douglas 30 caliber barrel, chambered in 32-20. This had all of the typical ruger ss problems. After not getting it to shoot, it was re-chambered to 30-30, which also didn't shoot. Both these guns were made by Sam Anderson, who knew what he was doing.Sam made me another short cartridge gun that didn't do great. At least I learned the accuracy secret of the Ruger #1.

 Today Paul Shuittleworth at CPA is an exponent of the 32-20 in, I believe, both .30 and .32 caliber persuasions. Several other good shooters use the 32-20.

The current 32 MS guys seem to cluster around DeHaas-Miller striker actions with barrels by the (CRS) canadian barrel maker and Leupold/expensive scopes.

For a while I've decided that the small cartridge = more accuracy story is not true, or not very true, because of the good work being done with 32-40 and 38-55 rifles.(J. Louis)

This is hard to prove, one way or the other. But, I did some analysis on the CBA national match groups, with the 30BR in Heavy and Unrestricted guns and 32MS in PBB class vs. .308 Winchester Production guns.

The result was that the short cartridge guns shot groups 71% the size of the .308 Win. Production guns. This means that all the custom actions and barrels and guns and the SHORT CTG. reduced group sizes 29%.

This tells me that the short ctg. doesn't make a great deal of difference.

For the whole story on the comparison, go to the book, UPDATES, in FILES, at

http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/CB-BOOK/>http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/CB-BOOK/

joe b. 

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3Lakes posted this 07 February 2011

Joe,

Thanks for the info. Possibly, one can get any of these calibers to shoot with a good barrel, action and lots of practice. The 32 H&R and 327 Federal still seem like good candidates to me, but I don't have the inclination to start a project based on one of them.

3 Lakes

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Balhincher posted this 08 February 2011

"At least I learned the accuracy secret of the Ruger #1."

Joe,

Inquiring minds want to know (at least this one does having recently come into possession of a #1 Ruger) what that secret is.  Would you please share it with us ?

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Ed Harris posted this 08 February 2011

The problem with many cartridges is that standard throats on off-the-shelf reamers are not suited for use with cast bullets at all.

The .30-30 is a good example, as it has no ball saeat, but simply a 15 degree basic forcing cone direct from the case mouth diameter, which is too small to permit bullets larger than about .310 unless you neck turn brass. My cast bullet match reamers all have a forcing cone entrance of .3114 diameter with 0 degree, 45 minutes Basic forcing cone, following the form of the 7.62x39 Lapua. In the .30-30 I enlarged chamber neck diameter to .337 at the case mouth and .339 at the neck-shoulder junction. All dimensions from the shoulder datum back are at min. SAAMI.

Comparing case sizes without having the throats and ball seat cut alike to fit the chosen bullet is like comparing apples and potatoes.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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joeb33050 posted this 08 February 2011

Balhincher wrote: "At least I learned the accuracy secret of the Ruger #1."

Joe,

Inquiring minds want to know (at least this one does having recently come into possession of a #1 Ruger) what that secret is.  Would you please share it with us ?

I was hopingt someone would ask.

The accuracy secret is simple. Take the Ruger #1. Either throw it away or sell it. Buy a good rifle. An H&R 30-30 is a more accurate cast bullet rifle than any .30 Ruger #1. The CPA Stevens 44 1/2 is way better. The Ruger begins to shoot only after replacing the barrel and trigger, fixing that overhanging spring holder/forend holder, and performing some set of arcane trickery. Why ruger made a hammer gun with a zillion parts eludes me.

joe b.    

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Ed Harris posted this 08 February 2011

Trick on Ruger No. 1 is to mill a radius inside the forearm hanger to ensure that it clears the barrel. Then relieve rear face of fore-end so that it does not contact the receiver at all. Then pillar bed fore-end in epoxy and securely bolt the fore-end wood to the hanger iron so that barrel is completely free floating and does not contact the wood anywhere. Then the rifle will shoot.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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tturner53 posted this 08 February 2011

Re. H&R accuracy, I have a bunch. Best so far is a 7.62x39 barrel, bought used. I do my load work at 50 yds., then go to 100 when I find a good one. It will stay well under an inch at 50 with the Harris designed Lee CTL-312-160-R and LLA over a healthy shot of AA2230c using a BSA 4X. So far it will outshoot my 30-30 barrel, but one of them will be my Postal Match single shot gun for this year. If H&R/NEF came out with a .32 H&R Mag. barrel I'd jump on it. The cost of having one made isn't in the budget right now. My hunch is if they go this route at all it will be a .327 Federal. That would be nice in one of their Youth or Ultralite barrels with sights. Throw on a synthetic stock(much lighter than their pallet wood stocks) and bingo you have a Bunny Gun! That and a good pistol like chambered and a guy would be set for a walk in the woods.

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raytear posted this 08 February 2011

I know lots of folks do not think much of the Ruger No. 1.   However, I fell in love with the rifle the first time I saw one in a catalog or magazine ad. I finally acquired a No. 1-B Standard Rifle in .30-06 in 1973 in a trade where the store clerk told me the original owner could not get it to shoot to his satisfaction. For less than $100 and a sporterized Eddystone M-1917, for which I had paid about $45 or $50, I had a like-new No.1 with a 4X scope.

It initially would not shoot less than about 2.25-3” groups at 100 yds. with any ammo I tried. So, first thing I did was to remove the forearm. There was some kind of soft epoxy, probably added by the original owner, that formed a kind of pad in the barrel channel about 3/4” back from the front of the forearm. I removed that by rubbing it hard with my finger!, then added a small metal shim where the forearm screw comes thru the wood. Put back together it shoots most anything into 1.5” or less. It REALLy LIKES Winchester cases with CCI standard LR primers, and 58 grains of IMR 4350 sending Speer 165grn BT spitzers downrange at about 2800 fps.  putting these into 1” or less as long as you want to feed it cartridges. On more than one occasion I have put 5 of these into 1.5” at 200 yds. Probably could not do that 200 yard bit now because the eyes of the trigger operator have gone and got so old that even a 3-9 variable cannot completely compensate. Another good load in that rifle is a Hornady 220 grain RN behind a near-max load of Winchester MRX. Don't know the velocity, but it shoots about 1” at 100yds. MRX has since been discontinued, but I have about 7.8 lbs. of the stuff left over. My personal opinion is that the 26” barrel of this No. 1-B likes slower powders as it shoots even 125-150 grain jacketed bullets better with those propellants.

Bottom line is that, essentially, what I did was what Brother Harris suggests, but without relieving the the rear of the forearm. I may try that last bit and have a go to see if it will do sub 1” groups.

In my opinion, Ruger's No. 1 is about the prettiest rifle ever to pop a cap. Like any thoroughbred, they need tender care and proper feeding.

Good shooting! RT

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joeb33050 posted this 09 February 2011

Ed Harris wrote: Trick on Ruger No. 1 is to mill a radius inside the forearm hanger to ensure that it clears the barrel. Then relieve rear face of fore-end so that it does not contact the receiver at all. Then pillar bed fore-end in epoxy and securely bolt the fore-end wood to the hanger iron so that barrel is completely free floating and does not contact the wood anywhere. Then the rifle will shoot.

Maybe yours shot, but many don't. Taking the forearm off and shooting with a muzzle clamp will tell the story-whether the forearm bedding is the culprit.

Early Ruger ss's had bad barrels, they all have poor triggers for serious shooting, the hammer fall is considered too long, etc.

Many shot jacketed very well, it is a chore, and a very expensive project to turn a Ruger ss into a good lead gun. More than a new CPA? Could be. I had one in 300 WM that eventually shot lead -mediocre-at GREAT expense and a lot-yearsa-of waiting.

Note the almost complete absence or Rugers in competitive ss shooting.

When the Ruger SS was introduced it was named the “Victorian", but it never lived up to the name.

It's a lot more than the forend bedding. I know. I have the holes in my pockets to prove it.

Get a NEF/H&R 30/30, the Buffalo Classic or the 38-55 and save yourself a lot of time and money.

joe b. 

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CB posted this 11 February 2011

Joe,

I think you have had a string of exceptionally bad luck with Ruger #1s. I know that some other people have as well.

I have had good luck with all four that I have owned. 2 #1Vs in 22-250 that would average about 0.7 moa for five shot groups, #1B in 270 that will average an honest 1.0 with a wide variety of loads and has for forty years, and a #1B in 223 that won its share of postal matches for eight or nine years back in the 1980s in the old CBA production class.

The 223 is back at Ruger for a new barrel and we will see how that goes. I never had to do any tricks to get these four rifles to shoot. That's a small sample and doesn't prove anything except that some #1s will shoot.

I believe the folks who have had bad luck because I had three #3s in 22 Hornet that wouldn't shoot even when all the tricks Ed has mentioned were tried. Ruger even agreed with me and replaced one of them when I sent one back before altering.

John

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joeb33050 posted this 12 February 2011

John;

I'm talking about Ruger SS rifles with lead bullets.

The virtual absence of these in SS competition should tell the story. To reinforce the story, see the gunsmiths and gun parts = triggers used to get them “right".

I think it was Bass who sawed the forend/spring holder off the action and mounted it on the barrel. A guy named ?Bosselman? claimed to have written a book about how to fix them.

Take a Ruger SS rifle apart and look at it. Think about it. Show it to your mechanically inclined friends.  It's a design disaster. More parts than a swing set. For comparison, look at a coil spring high wall or a Hepburn or a Maynard or a rolling block.

joe b.

 

   

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joeb33050 posted this 12 February 2011

Ed Harris wrote: The problem with many cartridges is that standard throats on off-the-shelf reamers are not suited for use with cast bullets at all.

The .30-30 is a good example, as it has no ball saeat, but simply a 15 degree basic forcing cone direct from the case mouth diameter, which is too small to permit bullets larger than about .310 unless you neck turn brass. My cast bullet match reamers all have a forcing cone entrance of .3114 diameter with 0 degree, 45 minutes Basic forcing cone, following the form of the 7.62x39 Lapua. In the .30-30 I enlarged chamber neck diameter to .337 at the case mouth and .339 at the neck-shoulder junction. All dimensions from the shoulder datum back are at min. SAAMI.

Comparing case sizes without having the throats and ball seat cut alike to fit the chosen bullet is like comparing apples and potatoes. Did you read the article??  Declarative sentences written about topics without understanding the topics don't advance the frontiers of knowledge. joe b.

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