Best chance for a tack driving 32-20 rifle load?

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  • Last Post 11 September 2010
Canuck Bob posted this 26 August 2010

I've been studying cast bullet accuracy tips and I thought it was time to start work on a real load.  32-20 in a Miroku/Winchester 92 with 24” barrel.  New to cast bullet shooting, planning plinking loads no need for hunting bullets so hard bullets ok. 

Rem cases (Starline not available) fireformed from new and neck sized, H4198 powder (temp insensitive important) at 100-105% case capacity, 120 gr LBT 30 Carbine bullet style (rounder ogive and smaller flat than normal I believe),  1400-1600 fps range.  Speer manual load parameters (22,000 cup or less).  Will be using Veral's book as my cast knowledge manual.

GC required?  Primer (books indicate rifle primers, CCI 400 size)?  Water quench WW?  Bullet seated to touch rifling?  Lee factory crimp or other?  Tight neck tension and strong crimp, etcetera?

I'm not new to reloading but new to cast bullets and small capacity case with mid range rifle loads.

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delmarskid1 posted this 26 August 2010

Hello there. It all boils down to your rifles twist rate. If it is slow you will need light bullets. My Marlin has an 18” inch twist and anything over 100 grains is a tumbling exercise. I suppose you know these things already. A 14” twist will let you go up to 120 grains without much trouble. As for plain base or gas check? Gas checked bullets are a lot more user friendly when it comes to accuracy. Bore size can be all over the place with old barrels as well. I've been toying with the idea of an Encore rifle barrel in 32-20. Thompson makes them with a 1 in 10” twist and are made for .308” bullets.  I've had a few 32=20's and my best results came when I treated the round as a pistol cartridge. I used 38 special type powders and kept my speeds under 1100 fps with plain base bullets. Load the bullets out until they mash into the rifling. They don't need to be hard. They won't be going that fast. The two rifles that I have used shot about 4” groups with 95 grain plain base bullets and open sights. With a gas checked bullet and a scope you may get close to an inch. At least I have heard of it being done. I would like to get my hands on one of those old Marlin clip fed bolt guns. They shoot like crazy.

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hunterspistol posted this 26 August 2010

       I reload the 32-20 to around 1300 - 1400 fps, with 2400.  Of course, I'm shooting a 10” barrelled TC Contender with rifle scope.  I use the 98 grain RCBS mold and the Lyman #008.   I can tell you this, I don't water quench the bullets, that's too hard for the velocity.  All it takes for me is wheel weight, air cooled. 

     The best way to find the load is to load 25 rounds in 5 powder charges and shoot them (with a scope) at a spot the size of a quarter at 100 meters. Patience pays off here.  Neither bullet is gas checked although, that could help.

  Ron

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hunterspistol posted this 26 August 2010

     As you can see, these are the winning loads cut into 5X9 cards.  I used posterboard taped on plywood.  As far as equipment, I don't use Lee so, I'll not go into it.  My cases are Starline with Winchester primers (on other calibers I use Winchester cases and primers).  The bullets are weighed to within .5 grains of each other to offer consistency. I single stage this with a powder measure, scale and TRICKLER to get the last itsy bitsy granules exactly the same. 

     What do you think? Almost good for an old guy with a short barreled TC, eh?

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Canuck Bob posted this 27 August 2010

Your shootin' is just fine.

I have only got one answer to the rifle twist question, 1 in 18 from a forum member on another forum.  Interesting about the stability problem with heavier bulets.  I'l check that out for sure.

The rifle is new (don't have it yet) and I will slug the barrel and throat before ordering my mold. 

Primer choice is very confusing.  It seems to be all over the place regarding advice.  The Miroku is notorious for a weak primer strike suggesting SP primers and non CCI from research. 

 

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JSH posted this 27 August 2010

I don't have a rifle in 32-20/30-20. But I have fooled with a TC and BF pistol for IHMSA for a long time. Switched to CB's about 10 years ago and have not looked back. hntrspstl likes 2400, I like AA#9. For my loads of 110's-140 plain based CB's that I shoot from 25-100m I use a small pistol primer. I have found it to be some what better with small charges, flyers went away for the most part. My other heavy loads 150-200+ grain CB's I have used a small pistol, but they will flow. So I run a small rifle primer in them with no ill eefects as the charge is fairly full case. I think you will be just fine with pistol primer in what you seek with boook loads. jeff

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Ed Harris posted this 27 August 2010

Recommend that you first cast the chamber and also check twist. I'm not sure what Japanese '92s have for a chamber. Traditional SAAMI style .32-20 chamber has no cylindrical ball seat, but a 15 degree Basic (per side) transition direcltly from the outer mouth diameter of the case into the rifling. Accuracy is usually improved if you run a .30 cal. throating reamer in just a wee bit to kiss the origin of rifling and put a very slight ball seat in there. It only needs to be about .020 to .040, but as much as .080 really does no harm.

The .32-20 brass is thin, fragile and easily damaged if you are not careful. Maintain loaded cartridge neck diameter with the bullet seated at least 0.0015 smaller than the chamber neck as measured on the cast. If chamber neck is less than .328 this will limit bullet diameter to no more than .310 or so. You want a neck about .330-.332, but up to .335 as cut with a .32 H&R Magnum reamer does no harm and will let you use bullets as large as .314

For most .32-20 rifles if using a production mould I would use either Saeco #322, NEI #82 115-gr. plainbase or Lyman #3118 and try bullets as-cast and unsized, no harder than 13 BHN. You don't need to quench, wheelweights are fine, or 1 part linotype to 2 parts plumber's lead.

For rifle use only, easiest is to just fill the case nominally full of RL-7 or 4198, settled in with a long drop tube to give only slight compression as you seat the bullet. Velocity will be about 1350 with 120-gr. bullet, a bit warmer than factory, but safe in the Winchester 73 and clones and close to original blackpowder loads.

If you have a revolver also and want a load which gives dual use in rifle and revolver 3.5 grs. of Bullseye, 4.0 grs. of W231 or 4.5 grs. of Unique are fairly standard with plainbased bullets. You could also try 7-8 grs. of #2400 or 8-10 grs. of 4227, but in revolvers I've had better results with the faster powders. You may need somewhat heavier charges of those powders to get clean burning in a revolver, but I would not increase them more than a grain without changing to a gaschecked bullet. In a strong rifle you could increase maybe another grain above that, but I don't think that necessary.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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hunterspistol posted this 27 August 2010

     In regards to twist rate, the TCs have a must faster twist at 1 in 12” or 1 in 14".  That means they stabilize the bullet quickly for the short barrel. It also means that the velocity will be slower.  In a rifle, you may be able to push the velocity up and better utilize a gas check. 

     Of course, none of that counts much until you get the right powder charge worked out.  They are all just factors with only some effect.

  Ron

 

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JSH posted this 28 August 2010

My TC and BF are both 1-10” twist.

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Canuck Bob posted this 29 August 2010

Thank you all very much.  Ed, your advice is the most detailed I've ever received, thank you.

This business with throats is interesting.  A brief peek in my 444 Marlin chamber shows just such a throat as you describe above.  It seems very brutal as compared to a shallower angled throat, mashing a bullet rather than squeazing it into the bore. 

The thin case walls is mentioned a lot.  Starline just doesn't seem available at this time here.

It didn't dawn on me that RE7 will fill the case like the H4198. 

I plan to remove the rebounding hammer feature per internet instructions.  However I'll wait because of possible warranty issues before altering the gun and voiding the warranty.  SP primers should work with the light strike often reported for these rifles, correct?  My take on primers was to generate as much flash and power as possible, seems I got it all wrong.     

 

 

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JeffinNZ posted this 31 August 2010

A Lyman 311316 in heat treated WW over 15gr H4227 with a stout crimp. Works like a charm.

Cheers from New Zealand

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bsdger45 posted this 04 September 2010

Bob, I have been shooting the 32-20 for 50 years and now have 6 rifles and 3 revolvers in 32 WCF. I don't have any documented data in my files using RL-7 or 4198. Regarding powders in the rifle, 2400 is very dirty burning with many kernels left in the bore, along with extreme velocity spreads of 150-200 fps for 5 shots. New 2400 was no better than old 2400. Blue Dot was equally unacceptable with ES of from 30-326 fps for 5 shot groups. AA-9 is very clean burning with ES always less than 50 fps per 5 shot group, with good accuracy. Loads using either Unique or 4756 are excellent in both rifle or revolver. Although obsolete, Alcan AL-8 is my very best performer. Most bullets shot are 3118, 311316 and 311359. The pointed 359 bullet will often outshoot the others in my Savage Sporter BA. I recommend reading Ken Waters' Pet Loads, seperate articles for rifle and pistol. I have the Browning 53 which is almost to pretty to shoot, but I do. John

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Canuck Bob posted this 04 September 2010

bsdger45 wrote: I don't have any documented data in my files using RL-7 or 4198.Speer has loads for strong rifles at 28000 CUP for these powders.  I want to start with slightly compressed loads and these work as well as AA2015. AA-9 is very clean burning with ES always less than 50 fps per 5 shot group, with good accuracy. Loads using either Unique or 4756 are excellent in both rifle or revolver.I'll add these to my list of candidates.Most bullets shot are 3118, 311316 and 311359. I recommend reading Ken Waters' Pet Loads, seperate articles for rifle and pistol. I'll find Waters book and I'm going to use an LBT bullet of 120 gns.  Veral's 30 Carbine style.I have the Browning 53 which is almost to pretty to shoot, but I do. John My rifle is listed as a 92 but has the Browning/Miroku pistol grip like your B53.  I am very excited and must admit to prefering the pistol grip..  This will be my first centerfire not designed for big Moose.

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bsdger45 posted this 04 September 2010

Bob, I didn't mean that data wasn't available for your powders of choice, I was reporting information to you from my personal log books. There are perhaps 20 powders that will allow you to use 100% capacity and more. I just derive more pleasure from a drive in the country then a few turns on the race track with the pedal to the metal. John

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Canuck Bob posted this 05 September 2010

Thanks John.

I'm returning to reloading after many years away and a rookie caster.  For safety I wanted a full case of powder to eliminate any overcharging rookie accidents.  Once the processes of reloading become second nature again it will be time to play around with faster and much cheaper powders.

I'm one of those guys who prefers a single load that works well and then I never experiment very much.  A mid-range plain base bullet load of around 1400 fps is desired.  Ed's Re-7 load will get tried because my 444 suits Re-7 as well.

Your experience with the 32-20 is outstanding.  It is a bit surprising to me how popular this cartridge is.  It is unfortunate that handgun ownership is so restricted here.  An  older S&W in 32-20 would be a real nice second gun to the lever.

 

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nobade posted this 11 September 2010

If you don't need blazing speed I am getting extremely good accuracy from my relined Cadet using #3118 and enough Trail Boss to touch the base of the bullet. Approximately the same speed as a black powder load and most shots touching at 50M. Easy to ring the 300M gongs at the range.

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