Accuracy of heavy vs medium weight revolver bullets.

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  • Last Post 21 August 2010
Changeling posted this 05 March 2010

 I am really interested in the accuracy potential of  my  Ruger 45 5.5 inch barrel relative to 300gr vs 255/260 gr bullets  give or take.  I know that is a wide open question due to a lot of things, but I'm not interested. I know about those things, they are being corrected.

 What I want to know is how much of a loss between the heavies and the mediums can be roughly expected at a 100 yd?  If you want to call it theoritical do that , just don't start talking about throat diameter vs bullet and all the other things that most people know, I hope you understand.   As an example lets say we have a great shooting weight in both weights.

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hunterspistol posted this 06 March 2010

:coffee     I, too, would like some real-world answers on this. The lack of experience with the Blackhawk rather limits me in this area. I'm just starting with a 41 Mag and 6&1/2” barrel.  I do know that my TC Contenders tend to shoot the lighter weight bullets more accurately.  Granted, it isn't hunting but, target shooting.  The ability to do damage doesn't mean anything more than toppling a steel target in silhouette shooting.  The TC Contenders that I shoot are all 10” barrels. The best example that I could give you would be the load tests for the 32-20 WCF.  I used two production molds, the Lyman 225008 at 115 grain and the RCBS 32-98-SWC at 98 grains. Both are plain based, both with the same lube, same powder, same cases, same primers.  Neither did too shabby at 100 meters. The lighter bullet groups only somewhat smaller.  The larger of the two is more trustworthy as far as knocking down the ram but, the lighter one does it with enough gusto to equal that.  Here's a photo of the targets, sandbagged from the bench with Leupold 4-12 scope.

     I'm only relatively sure of this, within my own given abilities.  The pistol isn't isolated from the shooter and this isn't 100% scientific. Then there's the fact that I shoot enough to correct my own shots without forethought. However, it is done with an extremely light trigger and over-powered scope. I think it demonstrates that lighter bullets in a certain range are slightly more accurate, to the degree that I can do this on my own.

     The left one shows the heavy 115 with a larger group than the center target with 98 grain.  These are the smallest groups for each bullet, of a series.  And shows that it makes 1/10th grain of difference in powder to do that. Just ignore the right hand 7mm target and you get the experiment.

    Ron

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Changeling posted this 06 March 2010

Is this question to hard?

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Duane Mellenbruch posted this 06 March 2010

hunterspistol wrote: :coffee      The lack of experience with the Blackhawk rather limits me in this area. I'm just starting with a 41 Mag and 6&1/2” barrel.  I do know that my TC Contenders tend to shoot the lighter weight bullets more accurately.  Granted, it isn't hunting but, target shooting.       Ron

Ron, I have also found that the light for caliber seems to do better in the contender.  Even considering that they do have a longer throat than one would normally expect.  Especially odd when shooting a 120 grain Truncated cone bullet in 38 special cases, and shot from a 357 magnum barrel.   

But this is short distances of 25 yards and therefore little wind effect to muddy the water.  Duane

 

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hunterspistol posted this 06 March 2010

      Changeling, the question isn't hard, it's arguable.

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Changeling posted this 14 March 2010

 Arguable or not, every time it's brought up the people who shoot revolvers a lot with years and years of experience seem to just clam up. This just doesn't make sense, if something is not right why can't it be brought into the open and examined like any other problem.    I know that Veral Smith definitely likes the heavier bullets but  doesn't explain in his book the estimated variance amount in accuracy to be expected from 250 vs 300+ gr bullets for instance.

 Elmer Keith seemed to stick with the bullets he considered the 44 and 45 caliber revolvers were designed for and praised many times the accuracy of bullets in the 240/260 gr area.

 However the different forums that everyone comes to for answers seem to think this conversion is “Taboo” for some reason.

  If you think I'm wrong please give me a link to a test/discussion/whatever concerning the subject.    

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KenK posted this 14 March 2010

Changeling wrote:  300gr vs 255/260 gr bullets   What I want to know is how much of a loss between the heavies and the mediums can be roughly expected at a 100 yd? 

6.473 %

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Changeling posted this 15 March 2010

Sorry Ken, I didn't mean to jump in on your post.

The Mediums will lose roughly somewhat from medium velocity. However the Heavies will probably be more in the Heavy category and will lose velocity relative to there starting velocity and mass.

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JetMech posted this 15 March 2010

Sorry, too ridiculous to leave up.

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Tom Acheson posted this 16 March 2010

FWIW, Hope this is relevant. I flogged a S&W Model 57 with 8 3/8” barrel in IHMSA events from 82 to 94. Did a ton of load development using cb's. Sometimes it seemed like matches were also load development trials at times. I did shoot (5) Mule Deer in Wyoming with it using iron sights and cb's before switching to a customized version of 414 Super Mag. bulit on a DW frame with Douglas barrel. With that i've taken (17) deer. I never shot any bullet weights below 210 grains (matches or hunting). The deer loads in thw S&W were a Hoch mould weighing 296-grains (a copy of NEI mould that SSK sold but I had Hoch include a gas check). The Dw uses a 325-grain bullet.

In our club we had a member who specialized in small arms and ammunition manufacturing and working for Honeywell he toured Europe visiting arms maker's sites, etc. He conducted handloading sessions for the members and I remember him saying..."the most accurate bullet weight for a given caliber (not cambering) is generally the heaviest available". He was a strong proponent of the 220-grain bullet in the 30-06.

Two things to think about...handguns, heavy bullets, lots of recoil...we as shooters don't always control those shots as well as the light bullets so we might mis-lead ourselves into believing the heavy bullet is a poor choice. And...the rear sight assy. on the so called S&W “target sight” is lousy. With only 6 clicks per revolution it has poor “fine tuning ability". The Rugers are not any better and neither are the early TC rear sights. I have a factory installed Bomar on my Model 57 that I'll be messing with this spring.

I agree with Veral that heavier is better and we've discussed this heavy vs. light mindset over the years.

Now it's time to have some fun with all the opposing views to the above....

Regards,

Tom

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Changeling posted this 16 March 2010

There is no opposing views from my end. You just repeated what I had already said. Everyone knows what I'm asking, just not getting an answer.

The question was what group size on average can one expect from 300gr vs 250/260 gr cast bullets with all things equal as possible?

Is the difference 1 inch/2/3/4/5/3 feet/6 feet? What can be expected?

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Changeling posted this 16 March 2010

There is no opposing views from my end. You just repeated what I had already said. Everyone knows what I'm asking, just not getting an answer.

The question was what group size on average can one expect from 300gr vs 250/260 gr cast bullets with all things equal as possible?

Is the difference 1 inch/2/3/4/5/3 feet/6 feet? What can be expected?

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1911Tuner posted this 17 March 2010

It's not the weight/mass of the bullet that determines whether a given twist rate will handle it at an optimum level. It's the length of the bullet, and largely the bearing surface...or the full diameter that contacts the bore. Velocity plays into that as well. A given rate of twist that stabilizes a given bullet length at 1500 fps, but sling it all over the paper at 2,000 fps...and vice-versa.

More than a few shooters ran into problems with solid copper bullets without a lead core...in certain rifles. Because a 180 grain copper bullet is necessarily longer than a conventional 180-grain bullet...the rate of twist was wrong for that particular bullet.

Likewise, a too-fast rate for a shorter bullet won't provide optimum performance.  The bullet length should be matched to the rate of twist within the projected velocity range.

For example, the M16/M4 rifles in use with the military does well with the longer SS109 62-grain bullet.  Not as well if fired with the old M193 55-grain bullet...and the older 1:12 twist rate doesn't do as well with the 62-grain bullet from the 109 round.

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454PB posted this 17 March 2010

Maybe the lack of direct answers is because not many shooters benchrest a 5.5” barrel at 100 yards.

My Ruger Blackhawk .45 convertible likes from 200 to 320 grain bullets, but I can't say how well it does at 100 yards, since I've never shot groups at that distance. I suspect that the really heavy bullets destabilize at 100 yards, due to the low velocity. But, the only evidence of that is from “plinking” at 100 yards.

I can tell you that it will group into 3” at 50 yards with all bullet weights if I do my part.

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delmarskid1 posted this 18 March 2010

I used to do a good bit of 100 yd. shooting at paper with all my hand guns. I used to shoot more often too. I've never really noticed much difference between heavier and lighter bullets at that distance if they shot really well at short distances they shot well out to 100 yds. I'm pretty sure that heavier bullets will handle the wind a little better just as with rifle bullets but really any handgun load goes subsonic in a big hurry because they are shaped like clubby little lumps! I used to get 6' or 9” groups with my glock 45 acp at 100. they were usually 200 grainers. I stacked the targets three high to find out where they were landing. Lots of fun and easier than it sounds. If you have loads that do less than 2” at 25 yds. You should be able to get 6' to 10” at 100 right? I've gotten 2'to 4” flukes with my 4 5/8” .44 black hawk at 100 but that's what they were was flukes. It's hard to shoot those short guns at that distance because the sights are too close together. With an 8” It's easier to half that.I usually stay with the traditional weight ranges because they've worked for a long time and they don't eat as much lead, or powder, or beat me up, or break my guns. I must say though that the Lee 340 grain bullet for the 45-70 can be squezzed down to fit in the colt case and it shoots real well!

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Changeling posted this 22 March 2010

delmarskid1,  I really appreciate your reply. It's something I pretty much figured but didn't really know. It is just so dam nice to hear someone with experience with shooting cast bullets to reply that is honest in what he says , Hats Off!!!   I've heard so much BS that it just gets to the point that you know!!   Thank you very much, I will not forget your handle!!

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JimmyDee posted this 22 March 2010

Changeling wrote:   I've heard so much BS that it just gets to the point that...

I just spent a day sitting with a friend of mine who rented a couple tables at a gun show.

"If we had a quarter,” he said, “for every BS story we heard our pockets would be so heavy we couldn't walk to the truck."

True that.

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Changeling posted this 02 June 2010

JimmyDee wrote: Changeling wrote:   I've heard so much BS that it just gets to the point that...    Well, you just heard another one, but I was told to be nice!

I just spent a day sitting with a friend of mine who rented a couple tables at a gun show.

"If we had a quarter,” he said, “for every BS story we heard our pockets would be so heavy we couldn't walk to the truck."

True that.

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jhalcott posted this 04 June 2010

I shot the Ruger SBH in “silly wets” for a few years. I found that the lighter bullets were fine for the smaller, closer targets. The rams would topple easier with the heavier slugs. As far as accuracy is concerned, I would use a specific load for rams and “dial” the sights in for that load. Typically the practice groups of the ram load went into about an 8” circle, The lighter target load would stay within a 4” cluster. Good enough to hit clay pigeons out to about 150 yards. Then they came out with the “easy fall” rams where the rear of the feet were cut by 3/4". Even those light bullets would take them BUT wind would move the bullet more.

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Changeling posted this 05 June 2010

jhalcott wrote: I shot the Ruger SBH in “silly wets” for a few years. I found that the lighter bullets were fine for the smaller, closer targets. The rams would topple easier with the heavier slugs. As far as accuracy is concerned, I would use a specific load for rams and “dial” the sights in for that load. Typically the practice groups of the ram load went into about an 8” circle, The lighter target load would stay within a 4” cluster. Good enough to hit clay pigeons out to about 150 yards. Then they came out with the “easy fall” rams where the rear of the feet were cut by 3/4". Even those light bullets would take them BUT wind would move the bullet more.

  Makes good sense, thanks very much for your input.  What type/weight bullets were you using?

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tturner53 posted this 06 June 2010

Changeling wrote:  I am really interested in the accuracy potential of  my  Ruger 45 5.5 inch barrel relative to 300gr vs 255/260 gr bullets  give or take.  I know that is a wide open question due to a lot of things, but I'm not interested. I know about those things, they are being corrected.

 What I want to know is how much of a loss between the heavies and the mediums can be roughly expected at a 100 yd?  If you want to call it theoritical do that , just don't start talking about throat diameter vs bullet and all the other things that most people know, I hope you understand.   As an example lets say we have a great shooting weight in both weights.

This IS a hard question, but I'll step up to the plate, I agree with Ken, aproximately 6.5%. If I have a great shooting weight in both weights then I'd say the 'potential' is probably more equal. A lot would depend on the other things, but I'm not interested in them either. We have a similar approach to this game. Maybe test some loads, compare the results, and let us know how it goes. Other people have the same question.

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wildcatter posted this 21 August 2010

In 35 years of shooting pistols and revolvers, I have had my most CONSISTENT luck with heavy for caliber, in the heavier load dept. I mean if I really load em up the heavies seem to take it better, and produce the most satisfying results with good accuracy at close range but they really seem to outperform lighter bullets out further. then in the most accurate dept, at 25 yards I have found no load that will out perform my 148 grain wadcutter in my 357, for accuracy, but it is totally worthless at 100 yards, and really have better choices at 50 yards.I don't care what gun or caliber you discuss the question you ask is not very defined, you leave a wide area for many to speculete. 

For the most part, I like heavier boolits for HOT LOADS, I seem to get better accuracy when loading this way. I like lighter boolits for LIGHT LOADS in any given caliber, and also like much softer boolits when I cast for light close range target loads. I have to say there are so many variables in alloys weights and sizing lubes and numerous other things to consider  that you can make an argument for this LOADED question in 100 different way's!

just do your job of working up a load like any other reloading situation, get your alloy, lube, weight for twist, and powder charge and type of powder right and you should have no trouble with accuracy from the right load!!!:}:^:

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