8mm Mauser Point of Impact

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  • Last Post 01 March 2010
MauserMusicMan posted this 13 January 2010

:}8mm Mauser Question Hi all! I'm new to the forum and this question has probably been answered many times over, but I didn't see it. I have a M24/47 Yugo Mauser and the Lee 170 .325 mold. I'm loading “The Load” - 13 gr./Red Dot, and have loaded Unique, 2400 and even Bullseye. The problem is I can't even get the bullets to print on the target at 50 yards at my backyard range - are they hitting THAT low? I've raised the rear sight incrementally, to no avail. What's going on? I'm using RP cases, Win LR primers. Also - I've had 3-4 primers not go when fired. I've reloaded for 25+ years, mostly handgun, so rifle loading is new - I'm seating them normally using my old RCBS Jr. press & RCBS primer arm... I might be crushing them, but don't think so. Is loading for this great rifle that different than for pistolos? Thanks!

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Ed Harris posted this 13 January 2010

If you aren't on paper you need to get closer and try a larger piece of paper. You may have some major malfunction. If your rifle shoots to the sights with regular jacketed ammmo, then that isn't the problem.

I have found that most iron sighted militarys shoot close to point of aim at 50 or 100 yards with typical cast bullet loads when the sights are elevated approximately to the 500 or 600 yard setting on the battle sight. I would try that first.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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corerf posted this 13 January 2010

I have had an occasional problem with locating bullet impacts depending on first firing of a gun and expecting a boresight or other approximation to “on the paper". If you have dirt and a friend, shoot at the dirt and have the friend spot the dust. At least it will show super low or if you miss the dirt, then your throwing them up at airplanes. Ed says you may have a problem with the gun in function. Thats seems like a possibility. I assume it shoots a mil surp round on the paper. It sure sounds like you did everything appropriate to make a CB go.

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MauserMusicMan posted this 13 January 2010

Ed, I can shoot military surplus (whatever bullet weight they are - haven't pulled any yet, but they look like 150-170gr. spitzers) or commercial 170-gr. loads to point of aim at 50 yds. with the rear sight all the way down and it's accurate...this thing has me baffled. I've been a shooter for over 30 years (mostly pistol) and understand about sights, but I guess I'm just not used to such a dramatic change of p-o-i. I'll try a BIG piece of paper and see just how far up the ladder I'll have to move the sight, I reckon. The only other centerfire rifle I have is an SKS, which I don't shoot much...I really like this Mauser  - cleaned up the stock, did some refinishing and it's a shooter. Bore's like a mirror. I did run into a case length problem, seating the Lee 170 out too far, trying to seat to the lands - actually pulled a bullet loose and spilled powder all over when I ran the bolt home on a long load- I got to pound it out and now am seating all the way to the top band. Guess I have a lot to learn about how rifle loading is different than handgun...If this thing had a bent bolt, I might scope it but don't want to use a forward-mount scope (58-yr.-old eyes) so I'll stick with the stock shallow groove or get an aperture sight. That might help seeing the target.

Another topic - I have some Berdan cases. Tried to make a decapper (have a VERY mechanical son with machinist training), but haven't had much luck. What about an air compressor? We have a small one. Ever tried that? The double problem of getting the old primer out and flattening the case anvil is troubling...do you mess with these? The cost of new ammo or even cases is crazy, and it would be nice to be able to reload these without moving to Budapest...thanks for your input.

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shastaboat posted this 13 January 2010

I shoot the same rifle/bullet and got good accuracy with 35 gr of H335, st 2010fps.  My sizer is .323 but I wish I was sizing at .325.  Make sure you seat your bullets long and touching the lands.  The easiest way to measure your throat is to take a sized case, no primer and start seating a 170+ gr jacketed bullet reversed (base forward).  Use the bolt and camming action of the rifle to seat the dummy cartridge.  You will find that the military mausers are long throated.  I'm sure after this step you will start to find your rounds on paper, but start at 25 yards.  Red Dot, Unique or 2400 should work fine.

Another real important step is to make sure your bore is 100% clean before shooting cast.  Use the JB's bore cleaner judiciously.  I find the military surplus bores to be generally fouled beyond belief.  Many times a bore looks ruined but after a thorough cleaning they are fine.

One last question is how does the rifle shoot jacketed?  Answering that may tell if you have a rifle problem and not a cast bullet problem.  You mentioned that you had some misfires.  I suggest you strip your bolt and really clean out the cosmoline grease inside the bolt.  I've never received a military mauser that didn't need this done.  I bet you will find grease retarding your firing pin fall.  While you are at it you might just want to strip the whole rifle and use a automotive solvent tank to even clean the stock and all metal parts.  Grease is fine for storage but the weapon needs to be totally degreased then light oiled.  You wouldn't use grease on you horn valves would you?

Good luck and keep us posted.

Because I said so!

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MauserMusicMan posted this 13 January 2010

shastaboat, I have cleaned things pretty well, and it does shoot jacketed bullets fine...just trying to find my way with the cast ones. The misfired primers show a good dent, just like the others, which leads me to believe it may be me crunching them. The bore's like a mirror. Thanks for your input - I will try the backwards-bullet-throat-measurement as soon as I can, to get O.A.L. No more pulling bullets loose by jamming 'em in too far! As I said, handguns are a different animal...wow!

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shastaboat posted this 13 January 2010

Dump the berdan cases.  I make all my 8mm from 30-06.  Power trim to 57mm and then size in 8x57 or use an 8x57 trim die and hack saw the excess.  When you set your 8x57 sizer die, smoke the shoulder of an unsized case, back off the sizer die 1 turn and then move sizer die into press about 1/8 turn at a time until you just touch the shoulder of the fired case.  This step will minimize case stretching and fit the cases to your rifle.

Because I said so!

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shastaboat posted this 13 January 2010

See my last post.  You may be creating headspace if your sizer is all the way down to the press ram.  I seat many primers with my press and generally don't have a problem.  I recently had some misfires with some Remington 9 1/2 that were quite old.  My OAL length with the Lee 170 br bullet is 2.90 inch.  Just seat the bullets deaper  in until the bullet does not pull.  I've pulled them too...and dumped the powder in the action.  Keep at it, you will succeed.  Last summer I played hell getting a 6.5 x 55 Swede to shoot cast and finally succeeded with .75” groups at 100 yds.  Another thought is to let your cast bullets age for a couple of weeks.  They get harder.  What alloy mix are you using?  I primarily shoot WW but do add some LT st times.  I also freeze mine or sometime heat treat them after seating the gas check, then lube/size.

Because I said so!

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MauserMusicMan posted this 13 January 2010

I will try smoking the case. As I said before, rifle loading is new to me but I'll get it eventually. I REALLY want to get an accurate load going with my bullets...I can see knocking a squirrel out of a tree and someone asking what I used & I tell 'em my 8mm Mauser...HA! As for alloy, it's mostly wheel weights with a small amt. of lino added. I drop 'em from the mold into water to harden 'em even more, without them becoming too brittle. I use them as-cast, no sizing and have no trouble seating them (no neck bulge, etc.). I tumble-lube 'em with Lee's liquid Alox and don't use a gas check. (I know, I'm supposed to, but I get zero leading and will get good accuracy eventually again...I do know they CAN be accurate, because I'd played with a few other powders before with this bullet and they grouped decently well - I guess I'm just going to have to put up a 5-ft. tall target to check the vertical drop with Red Dot. (Here's where you say “...dummy, you got decent accuracy with other powders, use those!!"... and I have no defense other than to say I'm looking for that perfect load that gives me the highest velocity and accuracy without leading that I can find, and many others swear by Red Dot so I'll keep experimenting. I will also continue to try 2400 and Unique).  Thanks again for the input!

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res45 posted this 13 January 2010

MMM I just recently started casting and shooting the Lee .312 160 gr. TL bullet in my Chinese SKS and Mosin M44 carbine.

I pretty much has the same experience as you on my first attempts at sighting in,using the same bullet in each rifle my M44 with a 16.0 gr. load of 2400 dropped 8” on my normal 100 yd. setting at 50 yds. once I moved  the rear sight up to 500 meters I was dead on and only needed a little side adjustment on the front post.

One the SKS I used only 12.5 grs. of 2400 it cycles the rifle with no problems and leaves the cases at about 5' from my shooting position,I had to use the 400 meter notch to get the bullets POI on center at 50 yds.   It's a whole different ball game shooting cast in rifles.

'Artisan' in Lead, Brass & Powder.

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Mike H posted this 23 January 2010

If you are not using a gas check I would drop the powder load down to start. Try eight grains, and shoot at a very short range first.

Mike.

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RiverRat posted this 28 February 2010

MauserMusicMan, I feel your pain! I am shooting the same rifle and using the same bullet mold. My problem is I can't stop my bullets from tumbleing. At 25yds, they hit perfectly side ways.I can't find any Gas Checks for 8mm so I am shooting them naked. Like Mike suggested, I'll try dropping the load. My rifle shoot Romanian Surplus excellent. I can hit the foot square gong at 300 feet 9 out of 10 shots. I apologize for highjacking your thread.....sorry:)

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MauserMusicMan posted this 28 February 2010

Don't apologize - that's why I posted here to begin with. I want to hear from others who are shooting similar equipment and bullets. I dearly like the rifle, and as I read more about it the M24/47s seem to be the way to go right now. (At least at Mitchell's...the “old Serb” holding the piece in the print ad adds to the image, I suppose) - they still want $300 for a rifle with accessories; I paid too much for mine at a gun show but don't regret it. I cleaned it up, refinished the stock and am having a rear aperture sight made for it by one of my sons, a whiz at the ol' milling machine. (I can't keep the Lee bullet on the paper at 25 yards, much less 50, with the issue sight-bullet hits too low for it). Am hoping some more leeway (no pun intended) in sight adjustment will help. Have tried 2400, Red Dot and Unique. Not sure why yours is tumbling; could be it's not totally concentric with the case when you load the bullet. The milsurp stuff shoots OK you said, so you may want to try a different bullet/mold and see if that's the problem. There are guys on this forum WAY more knowledgeable than me on bullet tumbling; maybe they'll come in on it. (Funny...we think of tumbling bullets as something to be avoided like the plague, but when the M-16 was adopted one of the selling points was that the bullet WOULD tumble, at least when it hit a target...guess that's different than the bullet doing a 2-1/2 half-twist gainer BEFORE hitting the target...)

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raytear posted this 01 March 2010

I'm not an expert, but have some experience with a Yugo M1924. Mine likes the Lee bullet, preferably with the gas check--GSs are available from Midway USA--and sized .325. Without the GC there is,apparently, too much room in the area of the chamber neck and leade between the bullet base and the surrounding steel. If not using a copper/gilding metal GC, a friend with a Persian 8mm uses CF Ventures' wax gas checks.

I cast from straight WW dropped into water, then lube sized in a Lyman 450. The top punch is one I made from a Lyman of similar shape. I took a bullet with a perfectly flat base, coated the nose with a little grease, then with bullet and nose punch in the lube sizer, making sure there was no lube on the base pin to set the bullet cockeyed, I put a SMALL amount of paste expoxy in the nose punch cavity and let the ram down so the bullet nose pressed its shape into epoxy. After the epoxy set up, I cleaned up the squeeze out and now have a fitted top punch.

My best loads have been 23.0-25.0 of SR4759. 29.0 of Reloader 7 is also excellent. The Lyman manual's loads of AA 5744 are OK, as is 10.5-11.0 of Titegroup, but the above listed are better. With the better loads I get 3"-4” groups at 100 with the issue sights. The same as with jacketed.

I also take care to NOT seat bullets too deeply, even though it leaves the crimping groove above the case mouth.

My eye-balls are well-used over 6 decades, so they need some help. So I have done 2 sight modifications. First thing I tried was to put some black epoxy on either side of the front sight blade so that, instead of an inverted V it was more like a wide vertical line. Then I filed it on either side until it was about .10 inch wide. The V notch on the rear sight was next. With a small, thin mill file, I filed the rear sight notch square. The effect of all of this was to give a Patridge style sight picture. With the loads mentioned above, I could use a 6 o'clock hold at 100 yards with the rear sight elevation slider set at 400 to get bullet strikes just above the front sight. For better sights on a budget, the above system is quite good. However, unless you have spares of the sights, it is a more or less permanent modification.

My latest permanent modification is with a Brownell's replacement blade style front sight and a Williams 5D receiver sight. The aperture style rear is my preference on any rifle. I cranked the elevation on the Williams sight down 'til there is about the thickness of 2 playing cards between the sight base and the arm that carries the aperture. (I wanted to have some downward adjustment left if I ever switched to jacketed loads which are hotter than the CBs I prefer.) Then I filed the front blade down until it was on at 100 yds with the loads mentioned above. I also filed the front blade so the side-on profile is similar to the GI original, i.e. lower at the front and higher at the back. Groups are a bit smaller, but also much easier to achieve with the latest sighting equipment.

DISCLAIMER: My Yugo M1924 is not a collector piece, so by improving its shooting qualities I have done no violence to history. It is in really fine condition with a smooth, bright bore and most of the original outside finish on the metal. The stock was dirty, but cleaned up very well. I lengthened and refinished the stock and was able to preserve the Yugo cartouche stamped into the right side of the butt. It had no real dings until it got knocked out of the rack the other day. It is one of the better Yugos and was among the first imported into the US. I bought it about 20+ years ago for $89.00 plus tax at a Rose's Discount Department Store in NC.

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