steadying the firearm to test accuracy

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  • Last Post 19 October 2009
X-Wrench3 posted this 01 September 2009

i have a problem, that i am trying to cure, and i am looking for reccomenations without spending a bunch of money. right now, money is really tight.  several months ago, i modified my utility trailer to work as a towable shooting platform. i did this, becasue i shoot in the woods. i do not have access to a regular range that is anywhere near close. anyway, i also bought a rifle rest to help. it is not a lead sled, i could not afford one it is an ADG that i bought on sale from midway. anyway, with me not touching the gun, it is fairly stable as is the trailer (i put jacks under it). but as soon as i grab ahold of it to pull the trigger,  the gun gets shaky enough that i feel i am THE contributing factor to its inacuuracy. i run a 4-12 power scope, and when i have hold of the gun (the rest requires my shoulder to absorb the recoil) i can hold the crosshairs around a 1&1/2” area. this kind of accuracy would be fine under hunting conditions. but for trying to determine how good a given load is, it's not much good. i need a way to hold the rifle steadier than what the rest will allow me to without messing up the wood on my rifles. i shoot 30-30, 300 win mag, and 45-70 govt. the win mag has the 4-12 power scope, the 30-30 & 45-70 gvt have 3-9's on them. all of the guns have had trigger work done to them, all 3 are in the 2 - 3.2 pound area (measured) with very little to no creep. i have tried holding the front, and not, i even tried to not touch the rifle except the trigger with just my index finger. that does not work out well, as the rifle tries to jump right out of the rest, and that was the 30-30. at this point, i do get some keyholing, but they are not cosecutive shots, so i dont know if it is just dumb luck, or if things are actually good. i really suspect it is dumb luck. it is not a matter of flinching. as soon as i grab ahold of the gun, it starts moving. loaded, or not. also, i shoot quite often, at least two or three times a month, and usually much more often. i fell this has come with age (53) as i used to be a much better shot. i need a way to take me out of the equasion, but, i have to do the shooting. any idea's??? thanks.   :fire:fire:fire

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canalupo posted this 01 September 2009

X

I am not familiar with a ADG rest.

I also shoot in the woods. I built a ell shaped shooting table out of 2 X 4's and some wafer board. I made a rifle rest out of 2 x 6's. It only has a front post about 8 inches high with a VEE cut and some foam rubber for padding. I added a smaller post with a U cut for the butt end of rifle, also padded. I then screwed the rest to the bench. It gives me a pretty solid bench for sighting in. A lawn chair completes the sitting arrangements. You could add some tie down straps for the rifle if you want but I find they are not needed.

It is a little on the heavy side but I can move it around by myself.

I hope this helps.

Thanks Bob D

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KenK posted this 01 September 2009

x-wrench, I can't really visualize your set up but I will say that you can get a pretty  good hold shooting across the hood of a pickup.  I was forty years old before I had anything better.

A sandbag or rolled up jacket is all you need.  The trick is to get your body braced good and tight against the truck.  Shot many sub-m.o.a groups that way.

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CB posted this 01 September 2009

x-wrench

In addition to what Ken said about shooting across the hood of a truck try this. Pull the buttstock firmly into your shoulder. This will help steady your aim and handle the recoil of a centerfire. If scoped avoid the scope on recoil.

Stephen Perry

Angeles BR:fire

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JSH posted this 02 September 2009

I am in the dark also about the ADG rest. I have a pretty good front rest, windage ajustable. I still find myself going back to sandbags a lot of times. Slickest and cheapest way I have seen these made is to use the leg out of an old pair of jeans. If you don't have any try garage sales and second hand shops. Zip ties can be used if you don't have a way to sew it shut. You don't need sand either. I have seen corn, beans and rice used instead of sand. Another neat trick to keep weight down is to used corn cob. I picked up a 50 pound bag several years back and have a few bags filled with this. I don't like it near as mauch as sand, but it works well if you have to pack it very far. Sounds to me like you need a rear bag to take your movment out of the gun? I have done my fair share of shooting over the hood and over the cab. It is a far cry from a proper solid bench to look for a good load. I have seen guys with trailers that they shoot from. With a spring suspension it caused them alot of grief. One of the guys that i hunted p dogs with had a small trailer that had jacks on all four corners. By the time he got that rig squared up, leveled and all of his stuff packed up on it from the back of his truck, the guys that had portable benches were already shooting. Do a search on home made portable shooting benches. I think you can find a good design that is pretty easy to build and that will break down for storage. jeff

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CB posted this 02 September 2009

JSH

The original Poster is still having trouble steadying his gun to make a good shot or shots.

Stephen Perry

Angeles BR:fire

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big boar posted this 02 September 2009

A friend built a nice shooting shed, raised about 1 foot off the ground. While he did a really nice job of it, roof and all, it still is not as stable as a shooting bench sitting on the ground. When another guy is firing, you can see the small vibrations through your scope, even with a 22, more so with a big bore. My suggestion is to firm up the legs as much as possible and the bench top as well. Then under the feet of the bench put some thick rubber pads to offset any vibration, if you can get the pads used under heavy machinery all the better. Is the bed of your trailer thick enough or does it have a lot of flex to it?

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 02 September 2009

Hi... some partial answers:

firstly Keyholing is not caused by erratic bench technique...  something is not correct with your load, or a marginal twist rate is suspect.

I agree with the homemade sand bags ... make 3 or 5, different packings and sizes ... I have some I made 40 years ago with sand from down the creek a bit (g).  For not much you can get coarser sand at a goldfish shop ( walmart etc. ).

I made one bag with #9 shot, but wow that is expensive nowadays, and also I cannot hardly lift the bag. (g).

For a commercial thingy, a couple of my shooting buddies have a ” buffalo bag ... or BullBag ... “  this is about a foot wide and 1.5 ft long, I like them real well, the whole rifle kinda gets swallowed up in them, ... but they do not like them ???

Oh yeah, for the mucho recoil rifles, try putting a sandbag between the rifle butt and your shoulder ...   no shame here, I am recoil-flinch proof, but still after a couple of gnarly 500 gr loads in a 45-70, I cannot move my shoulder any more .....


Also, your intuition is correct about ” error” ...  With a 10 power, and a perfect rest  ( as in ARA rimfire rules ) ....   the aiming error is still about 1/4 moa ....  With my much beloved Weaver KT15 ( does everything well ) the error is still over 1/8 moa.

Heck, I just subract that amount from my groups...  problem solved ...  & makes for a good feeling shooting session. 

( OH, for lower powered scopes, I find the aiming error is reduced by aiming at a hollow circle that is bigger than the cross hair junction   ... the eye can divide the circle into 4 parts pretty well.  Kinda like a reversed Peep front Insert for the Globe front sights ...  ).

hope this helps ken campbell, iowa

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JSH posted this 02 September 2009

Stephen Perry wrote: JSH

The original Poster is still having trouble steadying his gun to make a good shot or shots.

Stephen Perry

Angeles BR:fire

I understand that.

I never had much problem with the scope moving around when the gun was properly bagged. Maybe had to squeeze the rear bag a bit to get elevation right, though i don't like to do that.

I hate all the “gizmo's that they sell to strap a rifle into. It is n't a rail gun and will recoil differently when you shoulder the gun bags or not after a mechenical rest of some sort.

jeff

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CB posted this 02 September 2009

I have 4 front rests. Two I bought two I had given to me. If you have a rest you might do as I did. I bought a bag for one rest that is a no shape sand bag. The bag is a San Angelo by the same company. Fill this rest with fine sand just less than firm. It handles any factory stock and takes out the heebie jeebies while looking through the scope.

Stephen Perry

Angeles BR:fire

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hunterspistol posted this 03 September 2009

:coffee   I shoot TC Contender pistols from sandbags. From problems on forums, I've learned a couple of things that might help.  When I set my big sandbags, I always sort of 'karate chop' a front indention to  sit the forend in.  My 10” barrels are really short, so I make concessions. Then, I don't use a rear rest.  The grip goes in my hand, not on the bench- meaning you'd have to shoulder the rifle to make it work.  My last little trick is to hold the barrel down on the sandbags with my left index finger.  I can't really say if you can do this with a full grown rifle, maybe, and it would be better.  You'd have to press straight down and nothing else.

     Next is shooting form.  The same as standing, draw the rifle down onto target, provided that's what you are used to, with it shouldered.  You probably know this part, while exhaling slowly so as not to spoil the best sight picture.

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hunterspistol posted this 03 September 2009

     After reading your post a little more carefully, I thought, “Gee, I'm 53 myself!"

     Is your rest too reactive? If it swivels too much or loosely, it might be messing you up.  You know, I do this stuff like playing golf, when it isn't relaxing, I don't do it.  Sometimes I back away from it and review the basics.  Other times, I just relax, do something else and think it through. Maybe, what you're seeing is the movement before you get the rifle all the way to your shoulder(I've had that 'unusual periphereal vision').  It only counts when you bring together a good scope picture, breath control, good shoulder contact, trigger technique and a lot of confidence.

     I don't know, I'm not Freud.

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CB posted this 04 September 2009

Hunter

I think you said it all about good technique. A pistol shooting iron sights is about as challenging as it gets. I like the big sand bags you use. I  also feel if x-wrench applys all the discussion here his shooting will settle down. Thanks for your comments Hunter. I will be gone till next Tuesday for a Shoot see ya later.

Stephen Perry

Angeles BR:fire

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Don Fischer posted this 18 October 2009

Your major problem seem's to be technique. Decent front rest's can be made fron the leg of a pair of pant's filled with sand, been making then for years. Your rest i'm not familur with but if it has a bag on it, it should work. You also need a small bag for under the butt of the rifle. To raise and lower the muzzle you either squeeze or relax that bag. Don't touch the forarm with your free hand. With your shooting hand, gentlly grip the pistol grip or better yet don't grip at all. To fire pull the rifle into your shoulder with your finger on the trigger. Heavy recoil you'll want to hold onto that s**ker! Befor you shoot, take a deep breath and let out about half of it, hold there till you shoot. Make sure that the forearm is on the bag about the center or just forward of the center in front of the trigger guard. Do not allow the front sling swivel to touch the bag. Shooting is much easier with a heavier rifle, they sit on the bags better. The craze for these light weight rifles that are easy to carry makes the rifle more difficult to shoot off a bench.

One last thing to try is turn the scope power down to about 6x. Some guy's can shoot very well at higher power's, I can't. At higher power you'll even see your heart beat thru your finger tip, at lower power that goes away. You sitting there watching your heart beat you probably try to compensate for it.

Here's a photo of my portable bench. Made from 1 1/4” plywood with 1 1/4” steel pipe screwed into floor flanges for leg's. I think I have a plan for it in photobucket if you want to see it.

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Fred Sinclair posted this 18 October 2009

Speaking strictly about field rifles, your front bag should be indpendant of the rear bag. Your ADG is one piece.

Shooters get all excited about trick front rests, as well as vendors do about selling them, and spend to much money on front rests. A good heavy bottomed rear bag, with ears, is the place to start. You can rest the front on anything with a sand bag.

Turn your ADG around and use it only as a front rest and come up with some kind of sand bag for the rear and see if that doesn't help.  

Oh boy, this post is gonna' get me in hot water. Glad I'm retired.

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ubetcha posted this 18 October 2009

One thing I have found is don't wrap your trigger hand around the stock.When applying pressure to the trigger there seems to be movment of the firearm.Lay your hand along side the stock or just pinch the trigger with your thumb and index finger between the trigger and the back of the trigger guard.It may not work with full power load due to lack of control or recoil managment, but it works for reduced loads or lower power loads.It works for me

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Lillard posted this 18 October 2009

Fred Sinclair wrote: Speaking strictly about field rifles, your front bag should be indpendant of the rear bag. Your ADG is one piece.

Shooters get all excited about trick front rests, as well as vendors do about selling them, and spend to much money on front rests. A good heavy bottomed rear bag, with ears, is the place to start. You can rest the front on anything with a sand bag. .  

Fred I think you are correct about one piece rest I don't like them either. Good old sand bags are hard too beat. The range where I shoot has several sand bags made from pant legs that many shooters use.

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tturner53 posted this 18 October 2009

After a rain the sandbsgs are wet or at least damp at the range I go to. They seem to hold the rifle more steady when they're damp.

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Don Fischer posted this 18 October 2009

tturner53 wrote: After a rain the sandbsgs are wet or at least damp at the range I go to. They seem to hold the rifle more steady when they're damp. That is probably true because being wet, they are heavier. Take two pant leg's and fill one with dry sand. The other fill with wet sand inside a bread bag, keep the wet off the rifle. The wet one will lay still better because of it's extra weight. Wet, you can pile sand higher than you can dry.

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corerf posted this 19 October 2009

I use a relatively loose grip on the rifle (if rifle) unless the recoil will do damage. The less I am coupled to the rifle (light recoil rounds) the better I can hold. This is me and it is subject to the caliber being shot.

I use a cast iron front rest, similar if not exact in what hunterpistol shows in his picture. I do try to find a range with a stable bench and not be forced to shoot from a portable table, etc. The front rest has a leather bag on it with a formed notch.

So you can as others have said, make a similar rest that will virtually eliminate the side to side travel on the forend. Your shot will depend solely on the control you can exert on the stock. Use an old pair of pants, needle and thread. Clean sand and don't stuff the bag full tight. It needs to be moldable. Make a tube from the pants. Say 12 inches long. At 6 inches, sew it shut to form 2 pockets. Sew most of the ends closed, miinus about an inch. Fill with sand using a funnel. Sew the two ends shut. Yo now have a low cost notched front rest. Take the other leg, make a second, third, fourth tube. Leave these full lenght. Fill 3/4 with sand, not tight. Sew up and yo now have adjustability for various heights. Use a wood plank to add thinner increments under a bag or two. You can make a similar stock bag with a deep notch. Once you've done the front, you'll get ideas on the rear. My rear bag has a deep nothc, I just squeeze the bag with my left hand to raise or lower the sight line of the rifle. It'' make sense once you get the front rest is sewn. Cheap compared to $30 for just the leather bag for a cast iron rest.

You can sew by hand, no machine necessary. Levis and denim make the best rests, I believe. You wanted steadier on the cheap. That's about all I can offer. Others have indicated shooting tactics like breathing but you have been shooting a while so I think your aware of that.

Flat steady bench, notched front and rear bags, then a few other simple bags for the front. Yo can even pile up the bags to the sides of the forend, not to cover but for better side support.

Good luck to you. Hey If your not hunting too much, I would work those triggers down to the 2 lb range. That will make a huge difference in your let-off consistency. I shoot some crazy light triggers, I just know that I can't lend a gun to a friend nor carry with the hammer back or a round in the chamber while hunting. Under a pound with very minimal sear engagement makes for tight groups that might not be otherwise attainable.

Also ubetcha has a good thing with not gripping the stock with the trigger hand. Less contact is better, IMHO. Unless the 300 win mag is in service, then you've gotta do what necessary to keep control and a shoulder intact.

Good Luck. Mike

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