The source???

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  • Last Post 27 July 2009
Vassal posted this 25 July 2009

Hello,

          I am relatively new to shooting and casting and find myself a bit lost in some of the more complex discussion that go on here. I hear things like “throat reamers, and chamber casts, bump and taper dies, neck turning et cetera and I am (almost) entirely lost. Can anyone recomend a book or other source for a thorough and welcoming introduction to the finer points of shooting?

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Duane Mellenbruch posted this 25 July 2009

Other than joining the CBA forum, have you  obtained a copy of the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 3rd edition?  This is one of the books that is the first steps that many of us began to build our knowledge of bullet casting basics.

Have you used the search feature on the main page to look up those terms that you are not familiar with?  I am not saying that all those questions can be answered, but there certainly has been a lot of material covered since this forum was created.

This way, you can learn at your own speed and if you find something interesting just follow that thread until it ends.  The learning experience is worth the time it takes.  Duane

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CB posted this 25 July 2009

Good questions and I think there's quite a few people that don't understand the language. The throat of a rifle is the portion in front of the chamber that guides the bullet into the bore. There's a few different types of throats which you can search on this forum because there was a couple of good discussions with pictures explaining them. When throating a rifle for cast bullets all you're doing is reconfiguring or lengthening the throat to give better guidance to the bullet. When rethroating a factory barrel you'll want to clean up the existing throat so will pick a size on your throater that'll accomplish it like .310 or .311 for 30 calibers. Below is a picture of a throating reamer.

 

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CB posted this 25 July 2009

A bump or taper die is a die made with the same reamer that you used to cut the throat in the barrel. The object is to taper or bump the bullet so that it's a perfect fit into the throat. I use full diameter LBT style bullets so don't bump just taper so the dies will be a little different. A bump die will have a stop built into it so that when you run the bullet into the die the nose will be expanded to fit against the taper of the throat where as using a taper die and an LBT style bullet I'm tapering the nose down to accomplish the same thing. Here's a picture of my taper press ready to taper a bullet. 

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CB posted this 25 July 2009

Here's the before and after effects of a trip through the taper die. The bullet on the right is before and obviously the bullet on the left is after. The bullet will now fit the throat cut with the same reamer like a Morse taper.

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CB posted this 25 July 2009

The picture below is of a Sinclair neck turner. Primarily used for fitting brass to tight necked chambers just think of it as a small hand powder lathe.

Sometimes it gets a bit confusing trying to explain this stuff so if you have any specific questions feel free to ask and I'm sure myself or someone else will do a better job than this.

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CB posted this 25 July 2009

Pat

Now I can see how guys get cast to shoot as good or better than jacketed. I can do what your doing. Hope to have as good of results as you guys.

Yesterday while sighting in I shot .893 for 3 shots at 200 M. Had my own 66 grn bullets but was finishing off a box of Hornady 65 Vmax. The gun is a Rem 788 27” Hart barrel Weaver 36. I was loading a snoot full of 748 in a traditional 6X47 Fed nickel brass .265 neck. Canjar set trigger. I forgot my front rest and bags so I shot off sandbags.I am a wind and mirage shooter so this group came together rather easy before the blow in the afternoon which I stay around for too. Of coarse I set 4 wind flags.

This 788 in all likelyhood will be my Cast gun for persnickerty accurate bullets. I would hope and be confident I can do the same with Cast. The gun has shot 1/4 aggs at 100.

Stephen Perry

Angeles BR:fire

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CB posted this 25 July 2009

Let me start by saying “as good as results as you guys” doesn't include me. I'm not a very good shot or condition doper but couldn't care less because my fun has always come from the experimental side of cast bullet BR shooting, mostly trying new wildcats, twists, and bullets.

You're going to find that while there are a lot of similarities between jacketed and cast there's also a lot of differences. It's not as easy as throwing XX.X grs of powder into a ??? case in front of Brand X or a handmade jacketed bullet using J4 jackets made on Niemi or Blackmon dies and shooting it down range. And when you get to the under .30 caliber bullets it gets worse. In the first place pushing a 65 gr bullet at 3200 fps is a damned sight different than pushing a 70 gr cast bullet with a BC of maybe .200 at 1900 fps. Then there's throwing good bullets consistantly so you don't end up getting those lovely flyers that kick every one's behind. Then lube, twist, bench set up for a bullet with twice the barrel time of a jacketed, and the list goes on and on.

It's good to have confidence that you have the equipment and are capable enough to set the cast bullet world on it's ear but speaking from experience be careful how loud you yell it because crow doesn't go down too well. We've all had our occasional wallet sized groups but while I've heard of a lot of 1/4 inch cast bullet rifles to be perfectly honest have seen exactly none.

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CB posted this 25 July 2009

Pat

 I appreciate your concern for my welfare. I said earlier that I felt Cart is more involved than what I do. Yes I do have a lathe all the top drawer nk turners and mic jigs yo do any bullet job.. I just want a friendly sideline to my NBRSA shooting. I have no ego worth exposing. I shoot one shot at a time like the rest. I also have no wallet targets just many 100 BR targets most shot in severe conditions., Phoenix, Midland, Kelbly's, Raton, St Louis. Not a big item in BR but I shot one time .158, and a .165 groups at 200. I placed but I didn't win the agg that day.  I don't need to brag I've done all I said I have done and more. 

I could offer shooting instruction here but those with a snoot full are not humble enough to ask for help. So I keep to myself run my own Range and have fun with the BR locals.

Stephen Perry

Angeles BR:fire

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CB posted this 25 July 2009

It's not your welfare I'm concerned about and don't get your panties in a knot. I'm just trying to point out to a guy that as far as I can tell hasn't shot many cast bullets in rifles it ain't as easy as you might think.

Maybe you could provide some shooting instructions here but before you start talking about people having a snoot full and not being humble go take a look in the mirror.

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CB posted this 25 July 2009

Pat

Correction, I have shot many thousand through rifle barrels. I shoot and cast traditions nave 25+ molds all my stuff generic lyman and Lee 4 pots and many bukets of  ww and lintype and most manuals ever written on the subject. Just want to compare notes and get better at it.

I don't mad I go find something else to do. I like making cast as well as jacketed and am trying to shoot more Cast. Look ar me as a resource not a villain.

Steohen Perry

Angeles BR:fire

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CB posted this 25 July 2009

Since my job here is to quiet things down instead of adding to it I better just pipe down. Good luck with your 6x47 project, keep us abreast on how it shoots.

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CB posted this 25 July 2009

Forgot to mention it earlier Vassal but welcome to the CBA.

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CB posted this 25 July 2009

Thanks Pat

I am curious to see where I can go with the 6X47. I have a 1000 245496 bullets I'll try some but I want that RCBS 70 grn cast mold. I just won a pair of RCBS handles on e-bay a couple minures ago. I have to have these these handles if I want to go RCBS, LBT ot whoever makes good molds. I have plenty of Lyman handles but I am limited with these. I also use Lyman 45 & 450 sizers. 30 + molds and all the sizing dies and punches for each. All generic stuff.

I have a good handle making 22 & 6 BR bullets but I want more. That is why I am here to learn from the good guys, but i aint no rube.

 

Stephen Perry

Angeles BR:fire

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hunterspistol posted this 25 July 2009

   That's great, Pat!  So, the throat is the area immediately in front of the chamber, is it rifled? By reason and logic, it should be. That would mean you're matching the bullet to the lands?  Another question here: I've seen mountain molds and heard of bore riding bullets but, what's that about?

   It's 102-104 degrees in Texas. Don't ya hate it when they can type faster than you can talk?:coffee

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tturner53 posted this 25 July 2009

Vassal, welcome to the CBA. If you find all the technical stuff a little overwhelming don't worry about it. Follow Duane's advice and get that Lyman book, it'll get you started with the basics and you'll have fun too. As a new member you will also get a book from the CBA that is Very helpful. Making and shooting cast bullets is a great hobby, and feel free to ask questions, we're all happy to help.Edit; I may have spoke out of turn about the free book from the CBA, I've been advised that the book is available for sale but is not included with your membership. Sorry about that, things changed I guess since I joined. Anyway, it's a very helpful book called “Cast Bullets For Beginners and Experts” by Joe F. Brennan Jr., a man known as the cast bullet ambassador of good will on this forum.

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hunterspistol posted this 26 July 2009

:coffee  Vassal, most of it is fine tuning for benchrest.  Chamber casting is like taking an impression, likened to a plaster of paris cast of the chamber(section of the barrel that the cartridge slides into). Neck turning is cutting off the thicker side of the brass neck that holds a bullet, makes the tension on the sides of the bullet even. For most applications, some of these operations are going to extremes for accuracy.  As Pat demonstrated, taper dies change the shape of the bullet with pressure, the elasticity of lead comes into play.

      I'm fairly happy to make homemade bullets and shoot some steel targets. Although I've won a few shooting matches, getting too competitive too fast would take the fun out of it.  I need some more books myself. The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook is an excellent start. I have one too.

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CB posted this 26 July 2009

hunterspistol wrote:    Another question here: I've seen mountain molds and heard of bore riding bullets but, what's that about?

    Below is a picture of a bore ride bullet. The forward portion will be bore diameter, hopefully, and the body will be a bit over groove, again hopefully. They're designed so that the forward portion of the bullet is supposed to ride on top of the lands (bore). You're able to get a heavy bullet to fit a short necked case and short throated rifle that way. If you're interested in learning about throats i'd do a search and see what you find because I know there's topics covering them. You might be better off searching Ball Seat because I think it'll cut out a lot of clutter that way. I don't have any mountain moulds so know nothing about them.

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hunterspistol posted this 26 July 2009

    Now that brings me to: what's the definition of ball seat?  roundball space?  I see what the throat appears to be, a tapered funnel into the rifling, the actual fit of the bullet or supposedly.

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CB posted this 27 July 2009

It'll be easier if you read this. Only thing I see wrong with it is the author has ” then a custom transition” written above the ball seat throat and it isn't custom at all. The .308 Win, .243, and other chamberings use this type of throat.

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/attachment.php?id=674>674>http://www.castbulletassoc.org/attachment.php?id=674>http://http://

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runfiverun posted this 27 July 2009

JOE BRENNER JUST ADDED A SECTION TO HIS BOOK ABOUT THE THROAT BORE RELATIONSHIP WITH PICTURES. i know it for a fact, as i gave him some suggestions. he may still be trying to figure out how lube affects accuracy though.

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