Just Thinking Out Loud...

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  • Last Post 22 March 2009
BruceV posted this 25 February 2009

With happy abandon I have fired my beloved Crackbaby (Rem. 03 w/ 4 groove HS-44 barrel) with Hunters Supply 165 gr. BBFP hard cast bullets over 8.0 gr. of Unique.  I have no clue what might be the velocity of this load.  However on target the bullet holes show evidence of yaw.  That indication was more pronounced when I fired a match this past Saturday.  Temperatures were cold with a gusting wind coming from the left side of the range.

I figure that I will need to increase my powder charge to 9.0 gr. and see if that takes care of the yawing.  I want to eliminate the yawing but avoid increasing velocity to the point that leading occurs.  I do wonder if 10.0 gr. would be a little much.  According to HS, the bullet is sized at .311 and with my current load it has never caused any leading of the barrel.  First shots from a cold barrel routinely hit in the group.  Other than the yawing, the groups are nice and round with no stringing, etc.

 Out of curiosity I wonder:

1.  Would it be possible to estimate what might be the velocity of this load using the referenced 8.0, 9.0 and 10.0 gr. loads of Unique?

2.  Given that the bullet is plain based, would going to a gas checked bullet offer better potential accuracy.  In my case, power is not a concern as I am only shooting at 100 yds.

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Gun Junkie posted this 25 February 2009

BruceV,

My thought go toward how cold was it when you shot? I've had loads that were great in the winter and overpressure in the summer. Perhaps you do need to bump your load for cold weather shooting.

Here's another off the wall thought. I was reading a Precision Shooting article about how a bullet doesn't quite keep up with pointing straight on the path of trajectory but lags slightly behind. If all your yaw was at 12 o'clock this could be the case and the yaw is not a problem. This is a long range thing with J bullets but at such slow velocities you could experience it at  a 100 yds due to the rainbow trajectory?

Hey if your groups are what you normally get and you're not getting leading sounds like you're good to go. Heck who cares if they go through the target sideways if they stay in the group. :)

 

Gee Crackbaby, sounds like a name for a gun for a Gun Junkie....:shock:

As far as gas checks, I would consider them another variable and leave them alone at the speeds you're using. But of course the only way to know is to experiement.

 

 

 

 

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RicinYakima posted this 25 February 2009

BruceV,

  1. All bullets yaw. It is just a matter of degree. It doesn't mean they are inaccurate, if they yaw alike. See #2 below.

  2. Jacketed bullets, being about 100X harder than cast bullets, tend to self center on the great leap from the throat to the bore. Cast bullets will enter the bore in the same position that they are pointing in the case at the instant of firing. So they appear to yaw more than jacketed, but I don't think that is the case.

  3. Handloading techniques can impact the position (angularity) of the bullet to the bore.

  4. A smooth '03A3 barrel by HS will shoot a 220 grain round nose bullet with no stability issues down to 900 f/s, I've done it. Shooting it faster doesn't increase or decrease yaw. BUT there does seem to be velocities that they like better than others.

  5. The lightest data that I have is 12.0 grains at 1540 f/s. I think your 8.0 grains is about 950/1000 f/s. Lee's 2nd edition of Modern Reloading has computations for reduced loads that some folks find interesting.

  6. A gas check bullet will not be more accurate at that pressure level unless it fits your throat better than the one you are using. 10.0 grains is the fastest I can shoot the Lyman 311241 150 grain bullet without leading with Unique, but I never worked at it very hard (lube changes, sizing variations, seating depths, etc.). Gas checks are worth there while when velocity exceeds 1300 f/s and/or pressures get over about 24,000 CUP in the 30/06. At 100 yard targets you only need to do this if you are trying to cut wind drift, where faster and heavier is better.

  7. If “Crackbaby” will hold 1 1/4 inch groups from the bench with an experienced shooter, you can't ask for better than that from an 'A3.

HTH, Ric

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CB posted this 26 February 2009

I find Unique being a fast powder for rifle loads, peaks out fast. I think the 10gr load would probably get you up close to 1,400fps. So, it doesn't take much of a powder increase, probably a .5gr increase may make an improvement for you..................Dan

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BruceV posted this 26 February 2009

Thanks to all for the information.  In my area I have not found anyone who cast bullets or who share my interest in the older military rifles.  I am now located 133 miles from the rifle range so that testing from a bench rest is precluded.  I do have a church member who kindly allows me to shoot over the corner of his peanut field.  All my shooting is now from the prone position using a 1907 sling as I have to remove everything when I am finished.  I do have a very solid target stand that holds up well in spite of wind and that allows me to post two SR-1 targets at the same time.  This allows me to fire two 10 shot strings before patching.

This past Saturday was the first time I have fired this load in weather this cold.  I did shoot it extensively during the summer when temperatures were as high as 95-100 degrees.  There was evidence of yawing, but nothing serious.  Accuracy was excellent.  From my notes I find that I averaged 96.9 firing 10 shot strings.  I have some problems after reloading with maintaining the same POI.  I am hoping that a increase in the powder charge will address what to me appeared to be an increase in the yawing.

I can not say what would be the average 10 shot group size for this load when fired from a bench rest as I have not had access to a bench rest for such testing.  With good light conditions and little or no wind, I have from the prone position fired a number of 2.0-2.1 inch groups.  Average is more honestly about 2.5 inches.  At least a bit of this is due to my own vision issues.  I have found that if I can see my front sight clearly, I can produce a good score using black bullseyes. 

One thing I am going to have to do is work up new brass.  At a minimum I want all my brass to be of a single headstamp.  At present I am using WW, Fed. and Rem. cases, sorted by headstamp.  I also think it might be good to weigh the cases so that they will be as identical as possible.  I also intend to sort all my bullets by weight so that individual 10 shot strings will be fired with bullets as near identical as possible.  Hopefully all of this will have a positive effect on my group sizes and scores.  This is now especially important as recent matches at the club have been 5 rather than 10 shot strings for each position.  I think it is easier to fire a good score using 10 shot strings as a single dropped round does not so seriously affect ones score.  In testing and practice I think I will be sticking with 10 shot strings as I think it is more demanding.

If and when things slow down a little bit here at my churches, I will hopefully have time to get out and do some load development.  Right now everything is focused on looking toward and preparing for Easter.  May God bless you all.  Sincerely.  Bruce.

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CB posted this 26 February 2009

There is nothing wrong with testing loads from the prone position. Over the years I've known most hi-power competitors that never used a bench to test loads. A good position shooter can shoot practically as a good in prone as off the bench with a typical configured rifle for position shooting, (not a bench rifle).

There is nothing wrong with GI brass. If you do a web search for military surplus powder, you'll find a couple of dealers selling powder and brass. If you could purchase some GI 30-06 from one of them, it is cheap and usually all one head-stamp. There is a lot of DCM brass out there in 30-06 with head stamps in the late 60s and into the 70s. My experience I find the GI brass better for cb shooting, as it is heavy, durable for many reloadings and has less case capacity for a little better reduced load performance.

Don't let them get use to 5-shot strings. A real hi-power match is always 10-shot strings. Like you say, its a true test of ammo, firearm, and competitor. After all, its always better burning more powder and throwing more lead! :cba:  ....................Dan

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CB posted this 26 February 2009

You could look here for a guestimate on what you're asking.

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm>http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

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CB posted this 26 February 2009

Every time I think out loud, I end up with my foot in my mouth!

Sooooo.

I have learned what to do to keep the shoe leather out of my mouth.

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BruceV posted this 28 February 2009

As far as testing of loads is concerned, I've always thought it would be wonderful to be able to have a nice solid benchrest from which to fire since this would eliminate some of the variables in prone shooting that can affect on target results.  Years ago I had access to a wonderful range... I shot off the top of my car behind the house of one of my church members.  Once I figured out how to set everything up, my results were remarkable.  I will say that learning to shoot using the various positions has definately improved my results when hunting.

I think the reason strings were cut from 10 to 5 shots had to do with the cost of ammunition.  In my case, ammunition is one of my smaller expenses in shooting a match.  For me the cost of gas for the 266 miles I drive round trip is a greater concern.  However the other fellows live much closer so I can understand their concern about the cost of ammunition.  If it were not for my being able to use Crackbaby with these handloaded lead bullets, I would find it difficult to continue participating in the matches.

I have looked at my brass enough to know that I have at least 200 Greek HXP .30-06 cases.  I also have a lot of the Korean PS-75 .30-06 cases.  I think I'll do a little experimenting and see if there are any significant differences in the results that can be attributed to different brass.

At least for the time being I'm going to be focusing on shooting my homemade cast bullet loads.  That way when the next match rolls around I will hopefully have worked up a good load using new brass, eliminated the yawing and be in a position to shoot a nice score.

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KenK posted this 28 February 2009

Bruce, I still want to come and shoot a match with you guys.  I'm having a hard time getting my ducks lined up right now.

For those matches I expect your prone shooting is more benefit than testing on a bench.  I guess I should find out if I can still get in the prone position.

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BruceV posted this 28 February 2009

You will not have any problem getting into the prone position. Just follow my surefire method! I have developed a very effective foolproof method for getting into the prone position. First I take two Tylenol and two Ibuprofen tablets. I also drink half a pot of strong coffee with plenty of cream and sugar. I lay out my extra rounds, etc., and stand at ease waiting for the range command. Upon the command, I just fall down. I roll around ignoring the pain in my knees and elbows as with fixed determination I flop around, establish a rock solid prone position, reorient myself so that I am actually facing the general direction of my particular target and prepare to fire. The coffee w/ sugar and cream is a great help in helping me to twitch around and gain the final perfect position that will allow me to methodically plunk my shots into the target. The Tylenol and Ibuprofen usually have kicked in so that I can ignore any pain in my knees or elbows and concentrate on the match. Sometimes I've been known to eat some M&M's during the match just to keep my strength up. Trust me, you come to the match and I will take you under my wing... I'll see to it that you get off to a really good start. You just let me and the other fellows help you. I'm sure you'll do just fine. Really you will. I'm sure of it. We will all be looking forward to seeing you. I even have a guest pass waiting for you in my range bag!

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CB posted this 28 February 2009

BruceV wrote: You will not have any problem getting into the prone position. Just follow my surefire method! I have developed a very effective foolproof method for getting into the prone position. First I take two Tylenol and two Ibuprofen tablets. I also drink half a pot of strong coffee with plenty of cream and sugar. I lay out my extra rounds, etc., and stand at ease waiting for the range command. Upon the command, I just fall down. I roll around ignoring the pain in my knees and elbows as with fixed determination I flop around, establish a rock solid prone position, reorient myself so that I am actually facing the general direction of my particular target and prepare to fire. The coffee w/ sugar and cream is a great help in helping me to twitch around and gain the final perfect position that will allow me to methodically plunk my shots into the target. The Tylenol and Ibuprofen usually have kicked in so that I can ignore any pain in my knees or elbows and concentrate on the match. Sometimes I've been known to eat some M&M's during the match just to keep my strength up. Trust me, you come to the match and I will take you under my wing... I'll see to it that you get off to a really good start. You just let me and the other fellows help you. I'm sure you'll do just fine. Really you will. I'm sure of it. We will all be looking forward to seeing you. I even have a guest pass waiting for you in my range bag! That got me laughing out loud

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R. Dupraz posted this 28 February 2009

BruceV:

Thanks for the tips.:dude: Have been doing all those things for some time already, exept for the m&m's. Doesn't seem to do any good. Maybe it's the m&m's. Gotta get some. Any particular color?

But now, my real question is.... What's your secret for getting up again?   And not only from the Prone.:thinking:

 

Regards

R. 

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muley posted this 28 February 2009

BruceV its good to see a dedicated shooter. on the issue of a shooting bench, we used an old wooden folding ironing board. it was light and portable. some of the younger shooters may not know what i am talking about, but it works well when the ground is so low. this may work when the peanuts get high

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Muddy posted this 05 March 2009

What really works well is a Black & Decker Workmate, Just cut a rectangle ect. from a piece of 1/2 inch plywood for the bench top and screw a 2x2 piece to the bottom center, oriented lenghtwise, and simply clamp in the workmate. I use a 5 gal bucket and float cushion for a seat. Its light, portable, 2 piece and folds flat. I've taken it to Montana gopher shooting many times.

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35Whelen posted this 22 March 2009

  Bruce:

First, have you considered your bullets velocity and the transition from super-sonic to sub-sonic? I'm no ballistics expert, but it's my understanding that the flight of a bullet making the transition from super to sub-sonic is upset enough to be detrimental to accuracy.

   I recently began shooting High Power again and I use a 155 gr. flat nose plain-base bullet in a Swiss K-31. We only shoot at 100 yds., so I see no need in burning extra powder. My original load was 8.0 grs. of Red Dot and while it shot quite well, there were always a few flyers. This was evident in the first match I shot in February. I'd have a nice group, then one or two unexplained flyer per 10 shot string in sitting and prone. I discussed the effects of the super to sub transistion with one of our seasoned competitors and he told me he fought this with his 308. He could shoot good scores out to about 800 yds., but after that accuracy fell off as his bullet slow to sub-sonic. This got me to wondering if that was my problem...

  So I chronographed my loads and they were running about 1200 fps which meant they were crossing the super/sub threshold well before they reached the 100 yd. target. Long story short, I switched to 6.7 grs. of Bullseye which netted a hair over 1100 with the same bullet. I didn't do much bench testing to see whether or not the number of flyers decreased, but my score rose  from 612-2X in February to 662-6X in March and there seemed to be a decrease of flyers during the match.

  Just somethig to think about! Good luck in your quest.

    35W

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BruceV posted this 22 March 2009

I had not thought of the idea that my bullets might be going sub-sonic. With my next batch of loads I will be increasing the powder charge to see if that might address the issue of yawing.

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