UNLUBED 22 CALIBER BULLETS

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  • Last Post 19 December 2016
linoww posted this 16 January 2009

I sent friend and CBA member Bob Mills of Colton Oregon some of my 225662 Hollow points and solids(cast of linotype) to try in his 222 Rem 40X benchgun.He shot the solid without lube and other than the first 5 shot group all other 5 shot groups at 100 were either a touch over,or a bit under 1".A total of 5 groups were fired after the first warm up group.He then added lube to the bullet and the first group had the same point of impact as the unlubed bullets and grouped MOA as well.Velocity was 1750 with this load.He has been experimenting with other  .22 cal cast bullets with no lube at 2700 FPS and is getting about 1” at his 50 yard range and no leading over a long term of near 100 shots.He has also shot the little 36g 225107 @ 4000 fps with no leading (or accuracy he tells me)but it also cannot be found to lead the bore and does actually print staight on the target..Groups fired with lubed bullets following the hi velocity loads fall into the standard point of impact as before even after the abusive procedure.I just figured I'd let people onto what i thought was a pretty interesting phenomenon with 22 caliber cast bullets.

 

George

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KenK posted this 16 January 2009

I assume all this was with gas checks?

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linoww posted this 16 January 2009

Ya,he cheated a bit<G>

 

George

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KenK posted this 16 January 2009

Still impressive.

How many people have actually tried shooting cast bullets without lube?  I haven't, they are supposed to have lube. The bullets come with grooves for it and everything.

I do think I recall reading about some work done with unlubed bullets and a case full of cream o' wheat.

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linoww posted this 16 January 2009

KenK wrote: Still impressive.

How many people have actually tried shooting cast bullets without lube?  I haven't, they are supposed to have lube. The bullets come with grooves for it and everything.

I do think I recall reading about some work done with unlubed bullets and a case full of cream o' wheat.

I know CBA member Ken Mollohan played with it quite a bit.Bob does use slower powders in the 223 and 222 like 4895 when he tries to drive them over 2500 without lube.When you live on a 40 acre ranch with your own shooting range boredom gets the best of you and you try weird things ?.If i am having an odd cast bullet problem i tell Bob and in a short time he has it worked out through pretty thorough testing.His mentioned 222 40X has shot many 1/4 to 1/2” groups with lead.With lube of course and at about 1700 fps.

George

here is Bob in his shooting shack coaching me while i shoot plainbase bullets in my 30BR.

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codarnall posted this 18 January 2009

As a printer's devil I remember the hand set type use in our junior high school was so hard you'd be hard pressed to dent it with a center punch.  I really don't know the analysis of the type metal but I'd bet it was mainly tin and antimony etc, might even have some lead in it.  This is pretty interesting for sure.  Maybe this would satisfy the environmental freaks using lead free bullets.   Charlie

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CB posted this 18 January 2009

codarnall wrote: Maybe this would satisfy the environmental freaks using lead free bullets.  

Ha! That is a good one. Never count on that. To them, everything 'industry' does is bad, including the shooting industry. (they team with the antis)

Speaking of industry, babbitt bearing equipment has been around for a long time. That is lead alloy against steel. For the 22  shooters at 55gr cb per shot, babbitt alloy might be worth trying, somewhere around $.10 cents as cast....................Dan

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CB posted this 18 January 2009

George,

I have competed off and on in CBA events since 1978 with the 22 caliber. I would love to see you friend Bob Mills show up and win a CBA match with his rifle that shoots those 1/4 and 1/2 inch groups. Should be a piece of cake and would give us struggling 22 shooters a morale boost.

My first cast bullet was the 107 and I can agree it is hard to get to shoot accurately even at normal velocities.

The work with unlubed bullets is fascinating. I certainly would like to hear more about controlled experiments with the technique. How it is done. What doesn't work. Comparison to similar lubed bullets. Etc.

John

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linoww posted this 18 January 2009

He shot one CBA match with it about 10 years ago.He shot a 198-4X @100,but couldnt see his hits well enough @200 and may have DQ'd,i cant recall. George

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linoww posted this 21 January 2009

Friend Bob MIlls gave me an update on his unlubed 22 cal work last night.He fired a10 shot group from his 40X 222 into 1.5” at 2500 fps sans lube.First shot (first group of the day also) from cold barrel in center of grouping.Bullet was my 225415 HPand not what i would all a top BR bullet.The next group was a bit bigger,but he didn't indicate its measurement.He is going to shoot 100 consecutive shots at this velocity and see how accuracy and point of impact holds up.

                                              George

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CB posted this 24 January 2009

I would think about making your alloy for the 223 a little more toward being pewter than a Babbitt alloy.

The bullets will be very light, and may break up upon hitting a hard surface, but this is for paper punching so they would work very well, and would leave little residuals in the barrel.

Jerry

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linoww posted this 24 January 2009

I like lino for 22's as far as accuracy goes , but for varminting they didnt do much on the way of expansion.I had the 225415,438 and 462 HP'ed and they explode on water tests even when cast of WW lino mix.

George

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CB posted this 24 January 2009

George,

I go back and forth between Lyman #2 and Lino for 22s. The problem is the paradox of why a .223 Rem or 5.56 NATO is such a good man killing cartridge, just a huge amount of energy in a small mass. I have seen them go in as a round hole and key hole out.

I shoot 221 Fireball and 223 Rem in Contender Pistols, and my 223 Rem Contender Carbine. All three shooting CBs do an extremly good job on varmits.

Jerry

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Howard posted this 26 June 2009

Quick question, after buying 100lb of lead, couple of pots, adding some saw dust and drilling a hole in an old block of ground and polished steel, I figured I'd give casting a try. My idea was to cast some rounds up for my Hornets, but I really don't want to do the 55g slugs. Not really looking to load them in the .223, just want a little something to work on the groundhogs with out to 150yds or so. Who makes molds in the 30g-35g range that I could pickup off the shelf? And if I keep them under 1800fps do I really need to worry about lubing them? Thanks,

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72coupe posted this 03 July 2009

KenK wrote: I do think I recall reading about some work done with unlubed bullets and a case full of cream o' wheat. What kind of primer do you use to lite cream of wheat?

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murray222 posted this 08 July 2009

Looking for loads in the 222 Remington and any of these Lyman moulds using IMR - Winchester or Alliance powders.

22596 - 225415 - 225438 - 225450 - 225462

I have the Lyman Manuals . Looking for loaders that have done the trial and error to narrow down the field .

I am going to mould with Linotype has been tested to have :

87% Lead - 3% Tin - 10% Antimony

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jhalcott posted this 08 July 2009

I read SOME WHERE that the lube is a carry over from the old black powder days. The lube was supposed to keep the fouling soft enough that it wouldn't damage the next bullet.NO idea if this is true or not because I continue to lube cast bullets for MY use.

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Gene posted this 05 September 2009

Would this work with 30 cal bullets ??  If so we could save a few bucks on lube and alot of time.

Gene

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Dew posted this 01 October 2009

Wish this thread would pick up again. I want to hear more about the cast .22 without lube.

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CB posted this 02 October 2009

I too would like to see this Thread on unlubed 22 caliber bullets continue. I see no harm in trying this method.

Stephen Perry

Angeles BR:fire

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linoww posted this 03 October 2009

I'll get my friend Bob to update his data on this.I just shot a bunch of plainbase 30 calibers sans lube and 10 shot groups were no bigger than the lubed bullets.Velocity was 1250 and the bullet was the 308403 cast of ww and stereotype.All i did was brush hte bore between strings.Shot with  a P-17 Enfiled with a 6 X scope. I was shooting for score on our MR31 100 yd military target and it held the mid to high 90's.It was grouping about 2” I would guess.

 

George

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Gene posted this 03 October 2009

George,

Great job, please more info for me as I don't recognize the bullet and please advise on powder and etc.  How many 1/1000's was the bullet over bore?

Thanks,

Gene

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CB posted this 12 October 2009

Linno and Ken

Let's get some  more info out to the voters on these no-lube gems you guys chuck at targets. Now I have a new 438 to go along with my 415 and 462. Linno do you prescribe no-lube on all three and if so you say try 4895 or similar say 748. Primer make any difference.

Ken don't believe what you read about that cream of wheat it can act as a second missle and add another dose of pressure. Bob definately looks like the kind of guy that take all your quarters shooting and then turn you upside down to see if you holden back on any.

OK continue girls I'm interested in this no-lube discussion.

Stephen Perry

Angeles BR:fire

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linoww posted this 12 October 2009

 "I don't recognize the bullet and please advise on powder and etc.  How many 1/1000's was the bullet over bore?"

 

The bullet is a “base-band” style designed by Harry Pope made by Ideal/Lyman in the 1920's or so. It has a base of .315 tapering (reverse) to the base to about .311.The band just in front is .303 with the remainder (most of the bullet) being .301. with a short flat .296 nose.I tried it as cast, but find sizing the rear band to .310-.311 shoots better. I cast them of Linotype and WW mix. All I do it de-prime and re-prime one case, throw 7-8 of Bullseye,or 9-11 of Unique and finger seat in lightly in the neck about 1/3 onto the bottom band. You can reuse the same case a bunch, but about every 75-100 or so firings you need to resize the neck a bit as the bullet slips in the case too easily.Many 5 shot groups are MOA,but 10 shot groups under 1.5” are harder to acheive<G>

 

George Damron

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Fred Sinclair posted this 17 October 2009

linoww wrote: I'll get my friend Bob to update his data on this.I just shot a bunch of plainbase 30 calibers sans lube and 10 shot groups were no bigger than the lubed bullets.Velocity was 1250 and the bullet was the 308403 cast of ww and stereotype.All i did was brush hte bore between strings.Shot with  a P-17 Enfiled with a 6 X scope. I was shooting for score on our MR31 100 yd military target and it held the mid to high 90's.It was grouping about 2” I would guess.

 

George

I have had good luck with un-lubed 22 caliber gas check bullets but like George stated, brushing after every 10 to 15 shot string is required. Around 2200 fps seems to be about max, lino and a smooth barrel are a must. I use the RCBS 22-55-SP and the gas check void just holds to much lube and accuracy goes away with conventional type lubing.

A single coat of 50% LLA and 50% mineral sprits, a Ed Harris' suggestion, also beats the normal method of lubing. This would likely be my choice for a live varmint rifle.

I also played with applying lube to the nose (bore ride) of the loaded no lube bullets prior to firing. It does work but not something I care to do at the range.

I even went the tumble lube route using pure carnauba wax in liquid form. This too was a major improvement over conventional lubing.

Generally speaking the 22s are not highly thought of as being accurate like some other calibers. I have to feel that this lack of respect of the 22 is caused by the fact that they are being over-lubed, as are most cast bullets.

I have not tried the un-lubed route on any other caliber but if George says it works, it works!

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Dicko posted this 12 November 2009

This is really amazing !  In 30 years of shooting cast bullets I have never questioned the need for lube.   Now I need to psyche myself up to try it.    

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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DAMRON G posted this 05 December 2009

"I even went the tumble lube route using pure carnauba wax in liquid form. This too was a major improvement over conventional lubing."

I tried a bottle sent along by Fred and it is working very well in the 22's for me.It dried faster than lee alox and is easier to deal with.

 

George

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KenK posted this 05 December 2009

I have tried the Rooster jacket with fairly poor results and I just don't like fooling with the liquid alox, not that it doesn't work.

The LBT blue lube gives me pretty good 50 yard groups but that first shot is always wild.  Wild enough to be just about worthless as a small game load unless you  are shooting near constantly.

Where do you get the pure liquid carnauba wax?

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Fred Sinclair posted this 05 December 2009

This is where mine came from.

http://accessories.musiciansfriend.com/product/Planet-Waves-PROTECT-Pure-Liquid-Carnauba-Wax?sku=425316&src=3WFRWXX&ZYXSEM=0&CAWELAID=26028885>http://accessories.musiciansfriend.com/product/Planet-Waves-PROTECT-Pure-Liquid-Carnauba-Wax?sku=425316&src=3WFRWXX&ZYXSEM=0&CAWELAID=26028885

Use it sparingly! Just enough to feel it not see it.

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CB posted this 09 January 2010

Fred Sinclair wrote:

"Generally speaking the 22s are not highly thought of as being accurate like some other calibers. I have to feel that this lack of respect of the 22 is caused by the fact that they are being over-lubed, as are most cast bullets."

Fred,

That certainly matches my experience. For competition I only lube in the gas check void which is very small on my custom Mos bullet moulds. Any time I try more lube the groups are bigger. Plan to try no lube. Like some others I have always assumed some lube was necessary. When my best results came with the very least lube I could use that should have been a clue. I guess I am hide bound like many cast bullet shooters.

I tried a experiment with allox wiped on the bore riding nose--dozens of groups with and alternative groups without. Also with cleaning between. Like a lot of things with cast bullets it seemed logical but didn't improve things a bit although it didn't hurt enough to tell either.

John

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Paul Pollard posted this 13 January 2010

John,

Have you ever compared gas check lot numbers for 22 caliber? When I ran out of a box of checks and started a new one, I noticed that the new box was tighter than the old. Then, I checked 4 different lot numbers, there was a noticeable difference in fit. Do you think this causes some of the famous “.22's aren't accurate” complaints? Maybe having your own gas check making tool would be better for the .22 caliber shooters. Once you get all the components and sizes figured out, it might be more consistent.

This is just one more thing to rattle your confidence!

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CB posted this 13 January 2010

Paul,

I have noticed the difference. In fact I have several thousand too small to go on about half of my 22 molds (Lyman, RCBS, Hoch, Mos etc.). For 45 years I never had that problem although I owned many of the same molds. There is no doubt in my mind that Hornady changed the spec on at least the 22 gas checks about ten years ago. I have a couple of molds that won't take any of the many lots I have bought in the last several years. I am always on the lookout for a box of old checks.

I have talked to Hornady about this and they even sent me a box one time after they had turned out a lot on the large side of their tolerances to let me know. This caused me to buy several thousand more from three different vendors without getting any more of that lot.

I suspect gas checks for other calibers vary just as much but that the specs are big enough so they all fit and we just don't notice it. Why would there be more variation of 22s rather than 24s or 25s???

As far as it causing some of the inaccuracy. I will take any excuse I can get but don't believe it.

I think it would be fun to make my own gaschecks and of course being a depression baby I am as tight as most other cast bullet shooters and am irritated that gas checks cost more than primers (something truly complicated to make and using a sort of gas check to start with). However, I can't even find time to shoot as much as I would like so am not going to add any steps that make it more complicated.

John

Do you think this causes some of the famous “.22's aren't accurate” complaints? Maybe having your own gas check making tool would be better for the .22 caliber shooters. Once you get all the components and sizes figured out, it might be more consistent.

This is just one more thing to rattle your confidence!

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10 Spot Terminator posted this 12 June 2011

I just cast my first batch of 100% linotype boolits in 2 different .22 cal moulds and noticed 2 distint characteristics of these casts. One was they were definitely slicker than greased owl stuff ,,, had trouble trying to pick them up and would easily pop out of my fingers. The other is they cast lighter than lead alloys as much as 7 grs on a 57 gr mould and seem to also shrink a bit when thoroughly cooled reducing the diameter by .001 to .0015 ,,, This is prompting me to either have the molds modified for lino only or try Lyman #2. For the Hornet shooter a 45 gr rated mould should drop lino casts close to 40 grs and fit the bill. Can defitely see why you wouldt get fouling with pure lino as they are more slippery than moly coated bullets I have delt with.

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Wayne S posted this 12 June 2011

WELL, ain't it always something,  now I have to size some GC'ed NOE 55 FN in my Lee .225 die and load them for testing in my T/C 22 Hornet, and my PB & GCed 311365 in  a nother Contender

Ain't it always something :dude:

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ihmsakiwi posted this 14 June 2011

Wayne S wrote: WELL, ain't it always something,  now I have to size some GC'ed NOE 55 FN in my Lee .225 die and load them for testing in my T/C 22 Hornet, and my PB & GCed 311365 in  a nother Contender

Ain't it always something :dude: Keep us posted Wayne ands thanks for drawing my attention to this topic. Peter.

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madsenshooter posted this 19 August 2011

This is an interesting topic. I've been fooling around with the 6x45 using lead based babbitt bullets(formula isn't too far from lino). I'm shooting these out of a 5R rifled barrel with results that aren't too shabby. The bullet is the Eagan MX2-243. It has a very shallow lube groove, but even so it doesn't take very many shots and I've got a mixture of semi-liquid C-Red and powder residue nearly dripping off the end of the barrel. A babbitt, it seems would need very little lube as they are nearly self lubricating. I'm not ready to go all the way to zero lube, but I am considering simply dipping the bands in thinned LLA. Waxes seem to be overkill when I'm trying to get the bullet to grip on radiused rifling. Here's how my 6x45 is doing so far: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=121224

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Newt posted this 21 January 2016

Ok, I am digging up a VERY old thread here.....but I gotta know if anyone has followed up on these? I am going to assume that if it had been the cats meow then updates would have been made?

Or, is it one of those hush hush secrets that want to be held close?

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 21 January 2016

i was thinking of going into business shipping no-lube in airtight cannisters ... pint, quart, and gallon sizes .

i am working on the HAZMAT specs right now but hope to have it available within this month .

hey it has been a long cold january ...

ken

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Newt posted this 22 January 2016

Sounds very profitable, almost no overhead.

I've heard of such lube before though, see it a lot in old westerns and such. I believe they referred to it as - snake oil.

Has a ring to it.

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tturner53 posted this 22 January 2016

I'm going to start a new thread re. Cream of Wheat filler. It's a no lube thing.

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4570sharps posted this 18 December 2016

I have an ancient Ideal 30 caliber spritzer bullet mould for a gas check with no grease grooves!

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onondaga posted this 19 December 2016

 

4570sharps, you said.

 

"I have an ancient Ideal 30 caliber spritzer bullet mould for a gas check with no grease grooves!"

 

You don't need grease grooves at all if you tumble lube. Grease grooves subtract from the surface area available for tumble lube. The mold you have may be a gas checked bullet design for paper patching or whatever, but if it's diameter fits a chamber throat with a sliding fit on chambering it will shoot fine just tumble lubed with no velocity limitation due to having no lube grooves.

No lube groove PP bullets were once very popular and were designed to drop close to the size needed for paper patching but are usable with tumble lube for the rifle they fit or can be sized to fit.

Get an accurate measurement of the bullet as cast with a good bullet alloy like Lyman #2 cast with a good casting skill to maximum diameter. This will give you a good indication of what chamber size is needed for the bullet to work well and would also be a selling point if you choose to sell the mold. Someone well experienced with cast bullets only needs to know the diameter and approximate weight to select the mold.

Gary

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