I bought a couple (actually a bunch) of reloading goodies for Christmas. Among my “gifts” was a Lone Wolf Barrel for my Glock (to avoid comments about don't shoot lead in a Glock) and a Lee TL356-124-TC .
My questions. Using Titegroup what is a good load for my 9mm for the TL356-124-TC coated with LLA? Also, I am assuming I should use a good Factory Crimp on this.
Also, any recommendations for Unique, Bullseye, Red Dot and Green Dot.
I am looking for a good plinking / bunny load.
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Still looking and waiting for some information......>
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In theese days I am shooting lee tc tumble lube bullet,unsized ,in a 9x21 browning HP ,a black&white pistol,with target sights.,
and in a 9x21 ruger carbine.
My load is around 4 grains of Granular Cheddite S,speed is around 1000 fps.
No leading,acceptable plinking and informal target fun shooting.
I have just disassembled the HP and passed a bore snake through the bore.
I Use lee dies in a lee pro 1000 press.
There is a host of variables in 9 mm pistols you must find the right recipe for your particular guns.
Generally speaking the lowest load that cycles reliably your pistol,will be decently accurate without leading.
Of course,the powder must be flowing well through your powder measure.
There is a complete work on 9mm accuracy with cast bullets in an old issue of handloader magazine and the fowling shot,the author is Ed Harris.
I'll give more info as soon as I am able to find them.
Look on the Granular Cheddite website,it is in Italian,but you might find it useful.
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I had to look that one up, Giorgio. At first, I thought Granular Cheddite was something you ate on your pasta! ;)
How do you determine the relative burning rates of the Cheddite powders in relation to powders normally referenced in loading manuals?
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Thanks for the Cheddite info, but not really what I am looking for. I am hoping for some info on the cast bullet with Titegroup, Unique, Red Dot, Green Dot and Bullseye.
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Lets see for your 124gr .356 bullet
Start Max
Titegroup 3.3 3.7
Bullseye 3.8 4.2
Green Dot 3.8 4.3
231 2.9 4.4
700X 3.6 4.0
Red Dot 3.0 3.9
All the standard warning and liability issues are attached to this data, so start out with light loads and work your way up. I use 231 as a standard powder for all of my 9mm pistols.
I would be interested in your results with the new barrel.
Happy New Years,
Jerry
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Perfect, thank you very much. And Happy New Year to All.
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There is no problem with shooting lead bullets in the 9 mm Glock. I shot over 65000 rounds of Major 9 mm when it was still legal in USPSC,before they made us all shoot 9 X 21s and I had no problems.
The main concern is shooting lead bullets in the .40 cals. They introduced more pressure than expected and people blow the barrels out. Switching to regular rifling saved that problem
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I am finally back from SE Asia and have some time to work up this load. In my first dummy round I sized the case and dropped it into my Wilson pistol gauge. Dropped in nice. Now when I put in the boolit it doesn't fit well until my OAL is 1.089 (crimped into the last groove). Is that too short of an OAL. I am planning on using 3.8 g of W231 as a starter.
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Vacek, why don't you look in your reloading manuals? You do have some, don't you? Another source for your loads is: http://www.hodgdon.com/#
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Question by Dollar Bill.
I have seen to night that I have not replied to your question about Cheddite powder.
I look on the catalogs the composition of the Italian powders,i.e.single base,double base .
Then look for the powder weight and the shot weight weight and compare the Italian and US shotgun loading manuals.
This gives me advice on the starting point. I use as a work horse an S&W mod 27with 6 inch barrel, Ibegin with 3 grains and a 158 bullet in 38 sp cases.and go up ,controlling recoil,blast,velocity and accuracy.
I wish I had centerfire pistol or rifle loading manuals for all our Italian powders,Under this aspect youare better off in the US.
Someday I'll sure find somewhere in my cave, my second 41 mould,that I have promised to send you.
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Gee Whiz Edubya, I shore do have some reloading manuals. Why I even own the Lyman Cast Bullet Manual. And I read them.
However, for this particular cast bullet It seems to be headspacing on the top groove of the tumble lube instead of the case. So again, my question is “If I seat and crimp (Lee Factory Crimp) the bullet on the last groove I have an OAL of 1.089 (getting close to be minimum) and am wondering if that is too much bullet in the case which might cause a pressure spike. Low and behold the manuals didn't give me that information, hence my question.
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The loading manuals are an important base of knowledge,But only a safe port from which begin the real sailing.(what a poet philosophre I am).
The powder dose is one of the many ,and often more important factors in making safe reloads.
We Italians enjoy illuminated ,antifascist ,liberal gun control laws ,and we cannot have 9 mmx19 ,aka 9 luger pistols.( WEAPONS OF WAR)
We must have the 9x21 imi cartridge ,which is an opened up 30 luger cartridge.(weapon of peace)Just to prevent cheap 9 luger imports from abroad.
You can only use the the bigger capacity given from 2 mm more lenght of brass if you have a 1911 colt magazine.which accepts 38 super ammo.
In the other 9mm pistols we have to stick to standard 9x19 cartridge oal.as dictated by the magazines.
In my Hi power browning pistol I keep all the grease grooves of mi 124 TL bullets inside the neck,seat and crimp with the normal lee seating die.
I do not need the separate factory crimp (and cartridge sizing) die. My chamber throat does not accept 357 bullets without sizing them.Though the chamber accepts 358 and 359 bullets.
If your throat compels you to seat deeply the TC bullets in the 19 mmcase,you risk higher pressions.,So you should start again load development beginning with a lower
powder charge.Using the lower load that cycles the gun reliably ,you should have no problems.pressure wise.
To enjoy the simplicity of large numbers of bullets made from a Lee 6 cav mold and the ease of XLOX and LLA lubing I think you could rethroat your barrel to accept 124 TL bullets loaded to the longest OAL accepted by your magazines and the loading ramp of your pistol.
Many of my Italian pratical shooters friends shoot tenths of thosands of commercial cast bullets in 6mm,40S&W and 45ACP through the poligonal glock barrels.Without a problem.
I have treated my 45USC Heckler&Koch carbine,having a too much slick barrel wth a valve grinding compound fire lapping ,have taken away the dangerous shine from the bore and shoot merrily my 230TL bullets ,round nose and flat point.
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Giorgio,
Thank you for the reply. I will seat to the last groove as suggested and start working my way up starting with 3.2 grain of W231.
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Vacek, see if this will help in your development.
I didn't read in your OP that you had the manuals or experience, sorry, my eyes are failing me.
If the bullet profile being used does not resemble the one used in your data source, seat the bullet out as long as you can within the contraints of throating and magazine length. Dummy test rounds should feed, chamber and extract easily ithout de-bulleting.
<...>.
Automatic pistol ammunition should be taper crimped and “push tested” to ensure that seating depth will not increase when bullet noses strike the feed ramp. This is especially important in small capacity pistol cartridges, because an unintended increase in seating depth can raise chamber pressure dangerously. For instance, 9mm M882 military rounds re-seated only 0.1 deeper than standard approach proof pressure. This is why military rounds for 9mm and .45 ACP are tested for “bullet push” as well as “bullet pull."
Minimum bullet push for .45 ACP and 9mm ammunition is 45 pounds. Heavy bullet pull and bullet push in military ammunition is attained by using an asphalt sealant to cement the jacketed bullet into the case mouth. It is difficult to attain bullet push in reloads greater than about 30 pounds without producing a rolled cannelure or staked crimp below the bullet base. <...> By Ed Harris http://www.castbulletassoc.org/viewtopic.php?id=3060&forumid=8
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Gee Whiz Edubya, I shore do have some reloading manuals. Why I even own the Lyman Cast Bullet Manual. And I read them.
However, for this particular cast bullet It seems to be headspacing on the top groove of the tumble lube instead of the case. So again, my question is “If I seat and crimp (Lee Factory Crimp) the bullet on the last groove I have an OAL of 1.089 (getting close to be minimum) and am wondering if that is too much bullet in the case which might cause a pressure spike. Low and behold the manuals didn't give me that information, hence my question. I think the Lyman data for the 356242 or 356402 would work with the Lee bullet too. The 356402 data mirrors what Jerry posted. Jim
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Edubya,
Thank you. Some good information. I was wondering about the Lyman load. I will use that as my reference and start at a low amount of 231 and work up.
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I have this mould. I know exactly what you are talking about as far as the OAL. I assume you have already dealt with this, as your question was from a year ago!
FYI: here are some of my loads that give decent accuracy. I am still working on finding the “sweet” load though.
5.0 gr HS-6, 1.06 OAL, WSP, Win Brass, easy shooting, 5.5 gr heats it up a little.
3.4 gr. W231, 1.05 OAL, WSP, Win Brass, 3/4 Turn on Factory Crimp.
I use Lyman #2 with a touch of wheel weight. I haven't found much difference between quenched bullets and non-quenched, although the quenched bullets are much harder. Not much leading with either of these loads.
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vacek
I have been shooting commercial cast bullets, 125gr most likely lyman #2. I load for a Beretta 92. They have a single lube groove, so my info may not apply. They are sized to .356 which is a bit small. Intend to buy mold shortly. But I am wandering around. I load 4.1 grs of unique with cast and with copper plated/jacketed. I could probably tweak it a little but at 50 ft hitting a 6 inch group. That's good enough for me. Unique is a little dirty but I am trying to reduce the different powders I have on hand. Trying win 231 in 38 special/357 and 45 ACP. 2400 in cast rifle loads and IMR 3031 for jacketed rifle.
Hope this helps don't know if I addressed any of your questions. Good Luck
Bob D
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For 9mm bullets, depending on which pistol, I size mine mostly to 357, instead of 356. In my Hi Power and my Star PD they work better, but in my Glock 17, they work better when sized to 356.
As that I don't shoot lead that often thru my Glock, I don't make any real changes.
I did find the Lee TC design does cycle faster thru MACs and some UZIs, must be the ramp angle or something.
Jerry
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Gentlemen,
Thank you for all of the great information. I loaded up a set but found out they were headspacing on the bullet slightly abouve the crimp. It looks like I am going to need to size them at .356. I used wheelweights and about 10% linotype. That is pretty much what Miestro-jerry is indicating. I am now trying to find a Lee Bullet Sizer that isn't on backorder. Wish me luck boys, this child's going to figure it out.
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