1st shot flyer.

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  • Last Post 26 September 2008
mosinutty posted this 22 April 2008

Recently started casting and shooting for a mosin nagant M91/30. Using a 200 grain .314 Dia. with 25.0 grains of Acc5744. My dad and I both have scoped M/91's and have noticed that both guns always shoot high on the first couple of shots, is this something that should be expected? What is the cause of this phenomenon? I know these are old milsurp rifles, but how can a fellow produce a good group with the 1st shot going south?

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runfiverun posted this 22 April 2008

shoot the first one or two into the dirt.

you could try keeping the bore wet with some type of oil or ed's red when not

using the rifle thenpush a dry patch through before shooting.

 when it is cold it takes 4-5 shots to settle mine down unless i keep it a it wet.

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PETE posted this 22 April 2008

 With the exception of two guns my experience is the same as yours. My take on this would be that the condition of the bore on the first shot(s) is completely different than it is for succeeding shots.

  I've also found this to happen with the first shot out of a cold dirty bore after it's set for a target change. I atrribute this to the fouling getting cold and needing to get the bore back up to temp. before it will perform as expected.

  The solution I've found is to fire the 1st, or however many shots are needed to settle the gun down, into the sighter bull and then go for record.

  Possibly playing around with different lubes and powders might improve this but I haven't found it yet.

PETE

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CB posted this 23 April 2008

I will offer this as something to think on...

With my 30-06 deer gun that I use mainly jacketed bullets in. My first shot goes right where I want it to.. Subsequent shots move a bit lower. Why? Because the barrel heats up.. Why does the first shot go where I aim? Because that is how I have it sighted in. When I sight this gun in, I sight in the first shot.. Then the gun is allowed to sit for a period of time, then I take a nother shot. I do this because the first shot I take using this gun will be at game and I need it to go where I want it to go.

I have not followed this process when working with my cast target guns because in a match there are many more shots fired and the barrel is hotter than my deer gun. However it would be interesting to see if with cast the same result can be achieved.

That way we can see what the cause of the first shot flyer is in fact the barrel temp/bore fouling effect..

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billwnr posted this 23 April 2008

mosinutty wrote: Recently started casting and shooting for a mosin nagant M91/30. Using a 200 grain .314 Dia. with 25.0 grains of Acc5744. My dad and I both have scoped M/91's and have noticed that both guns always shoot high on the first couple of shots, is this something that should be expected? What is the cause of this phenomenon? I know these are old milsurp rifles, but how can a fellow produce a good group with the 1st shot going south?

I shoot 2400 and have the same problem as you.   I just fire my first 3 shots or so in the dirt before I start using the sighter target.  When I finally get it settled in then I go to the score target.

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argie1891 posted this 23 April 2008

My m-91 argentine mauser shoots the first shot about 4 inches high and the next 2 or 3  each come down about an inch till the group settles down. i just shoot the first 4 or 5 in the dirt. my load is lyman 311284 with 12  gr. of unique. i have shot some 1 inch groups with this combination. joe gifford aka argie1891

if you think you have it figured out then you just dont understand

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mosinutty posted this 24 April 2008

Sounds like a common problem we all experience. I will try shooting the first three rounds in the backstop next time I visit the range. Thanks for the information!

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 24 April 2008

Hi, maybe nitpicking a bit, but this doesn

beware that even if you shoot a setlled-down-group ... if you wait a few minutes ( as above to put up a new target )... the condition in your barrel may change and require a few more warm up shots.  In a match, I figure if you don

lots of ways to create flyers,  not very  many ways to force a small  group... at least when you want one ...(g) ken campbell, iowa

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argie1891 posted this 24 April 2008

i agree that conditioning may be the problem. i can only work on the cure to the problem, so i shoot a few foulers every time i change targets. as far as lube is concerned i have used 50/50 gray24 super molly and all are the same in my rifle the first shot is always about 4 inches higher than the group. as long as a shooter knows his rifle it is a condition that can be solved. joe gifford aka agie1891

if you think you have it figured out then you just dont understand

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billwnr posted this 24 April 2008

It's “warming” too in addition to fouling with barrels because if you stop in the middle of a group, let the barrel cool down, and then start up again the POI changes.

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 24 April 2008

It is not uncommon for the fist one or two shots to print differently than subsequent strings of shots.

I've seen several folks over time at the range that shoot ONE round and let the rifle cool off (20 minutes) and shoot another.  They set the sights on the center of the group.   The 'iron is then sighted in well for the FIRST round out of a cold barrel.

 

FWIW

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mosinutty posted this 24 April 2008

Ok, Now I'm confused. I know we are talking about cast bullets here. So what is the difference in jacketed bullets as compared to cast bullets as so far as accuracy? For example, When I shoot my AR-15 or my Ak-47 with jacketed bullets I don't experience the pronounced 1st shot flyer problem. Is this due to the fact that the rifling and bores on these rifles are of better quality than the old milsurps? Or is it simply that a cast bullet reacts differently to imperfections in the bore than a jacketed bullet does because jacketed bullets don't expand and fill the rifling like a cast bullet? And if this is true than I wonder if the first 2 or 3 shots fill those imperfections by slightly leading the bore which in turn improves accuracy?.......Ok......That was a bunch of BS......But it sounds good!   

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argie1891 posted this 24 April 2008

I think the difference between cast and jacketed bullets is bore condition. not caused by age but i think the lube reacts differently from a cold blr. to a warm one. I dont think this can be proven one way or the other but the lube seems to need to be warm. i know from a previous post that it was said that 100 degree weather should be the same as shooting. but i can tell you that i have not cleaned the lube from my rifle for months and it still takes several shots to get it to group. the outside tempature seems to make no difference it still must be shot. i have tried using a patch with bullet lube on it and that didnt work. as far as bullet imperfections cast bullets can be as consistent as jacketed ones if sorted properly. joe gifford aka argie1891

if you think you have it figured out then you just dont understand

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mosinutty posted this 24 April 2008

That brings to mind a question, How much does small imperfections in the cast effect accuracy?

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billwnr posted this 25 April 2008

mosinutty wrote: That brings to mind a question, How much does small imperfections in the cast effect accuracy?

moisinutty, you might start another thread to collect the responses to this as it's a topic near and dear to all of us.

This is my personal opinion and with a handgun I am just a recreational shooter.  I find with a handgun at 25yards it takes a lot of imperfections to make a bullet shoot bad.  This may be my way of saying I'm a bad shot with a handgun.

I've shot some matches with bullets that I had previously rejected.  My opinion is I would only be concerned with defects on the nose of the bullet.  Minor creases on the sides, while conventional wisdom (I sure do like that phrase) would say it puts the bullet out of balance.  Those bullets still shoot no worse than 9's on Military score targets.   Personally I reject bullets with bad or rounded base edges.  I don't even consider shooting them.

I shot an Issue match once and shot as good as the rest of the shooters.  Had problems with the 3 MOA rear peep sight and the bent front sight on my 03A3.  Later when I slugged the barrel I found out the nose section of my bullet didn't touch the rifling.  It was undersized by about .003.   I shot my “best” rejects and except for two shooters that were lots better than the remaining shooters, shot with the pack.

So, summing it up, some of the rejects we discard bullets for don't have much impact on accuracy.    But it does make a difference between winning the match and a good showing.

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mosinutty posted this 28 April 2008

Went to the range Sunday to try out our 50/50 lino lead mix. Before we went to the range we mixed up some Ed's Red and ran a wet patch through our bores. We set up a cold target and a group target at 100 yards. We wanted to measure our 1st cold shots to see if the flyer's were grouping consistently in the same area. But all of our shots hit the 8 inch bull, no flyer's like we had experienced before on our last visit? I can't believe that the solvent made a difference, but it sure appeared that way.  

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runfiverun posted this 29 April 2008

cannot take credit for this idea as original,

but you may want to push another wet patch through the bbl

when done shooting and just leave it in there.

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mosinutty posted this 29 April 2008

I repeated several wet patch and bore brush sessions upon returning from the range. Never of course got a clean one, but I did run a wet one with Ed's red through before putting the rifle away.

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bfrshooter posted this 25 September 2008

I was always bugged by a clean barrel when I shot IHMSA. There were times I didn't get a fouling shot at the range. I would miss the first chicken at 50 meters and get the other 39 targets. If I took one shot at home, I would get all 40 targets.

It didn't matter if I used my XP100, revolver or any other gun. Those guns got extremely hot and the only thing the heat effected was if I used the wrong powder. I made the mistake of using the 4227's in my .44 for a few shoots. If you want to see a .44 go nuts, try that stuff. 

I did a lot of long range shooting with a .300 Weatherby and heat never effected it because of the way I bedded it, but the first shot from a clean barrel did.

I never hunt with a clean barrel unless it is a muzzle loader.  

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canalupo posted this 25 September 2008

Sounds like a similar problem I have seen using miniballs in a black powder rifle. The first shot in a cold clean barrel seems to get a bad seal against the barrel rifling. Once the barrel is fouled by the first shot the accuracy improves.

This may be a bullet sizing issue. Military rifles may have a inconsistant diameter down the barrel. and a little fouling may fill in any gaps.

Just a thought

Bob D

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bfrshooter posted this 26 September 2008

It could be as simple as a clean barrel being too slippery. Why they always seem to hit high though baffles me. It would appear that with a bullet getting out faster, the barrel would not have risen as high from recoil so it should hit low.

Maybe the bullet seals BETTER in a clean bore and is slower.

We need to chronograph first shots from a clean bore, something I never tried.   

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