Longer bullets in the 303 br.

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  • Last Post 13 December 2012
giorgio de galleani posted this 17 March 2008

Dear Ed,

I have got an SMLE N°4 with two grooved barrel shooting good groups with your NEI #72 bullet., A gorgeous 6 cavity gang mould.

 In two more  .303 Smle with five grooves and an Italian bolt action  Sabatti rifle in 7.62x39 with russian throat ,to have the bullet's nose engraved by the lands I have to poke the bullets out of the case,merely the gascheck is inside the case.

This takes away the peace of my mind,I believe the bullet is out of alignement with the case. In any case I would appreciate a 200 gr. bullet.

I have  very old Lyman moulds 314299 and a 311467 flat nose loverin,they shoot bad,

Would a longer bullet body (.315 dia,)followed by an ogive as in bullet #72 be a good idea? Or have you already solved the problem?

Or would you advice me to shoot #72 seated normally ,accept plinking accuracy and not look to make bench rest winning champions of old junk? 

Bullet#72 gets easily under moa groups in a heavy barrel mod 70 .308w I own.

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Ed Harris posted this 18 March 2008

giorgio de galleani wrote: I have got an SMLE N°4 with two grooved barrel shooting good groups with your NEI #72 bullet., A gorgeous 6 cavity gang mould. In two more  .303 Smle with five grooves and an Italian bolt action  Sabatti rifle in 7.62x39 with russian throat ,to have the bullet's nose engraved by the lands I have to poke the bullets out of the case,merely the gascheck is inside the case.  This takes away the peace of my mind,I believe the bullet is out of alignement with the case. In any case I would appreciate a 200 gr. bullet.  I have  very old Lyman moulds 314299 and a 311467 flat nose loverin,they shoot bad,

Would a longer bullet body (.315 dia,)followed by an ogive as in bullet #72 be a good idea? Or have you already solved the problem? Or would you advice me to shoot #72 seated normally ,accept plinking accuracy and not look to make bench rest winning champions of old junk?  Bullet#72 gets easily under moa groups in a heavy barrel mod 70 .308w I own. Giorgio,

In my experience, as long as the gascheck base of the bullet is still guided by the neck of the cartridge case as the bullet engages the origin of rifling, accuracy will be OK, if not competition quality.

If bullets are seated far out, so that the shank length held by the case neck is less than the bullet diameter, ballistic uniformity is adversely affected. 

I would try seating the #72 to normal length, shooting as-cast, without sizing the bullet, and crimping the GC in an oversized die, to ensure that the bullet base is large enough to seal the throat, not sizing the driving bands at all. 

If your No. 4 is properly bedded cast bullets seated in this manner should do at least as well as good lots of Mk.VII ball ammunition. 

I did not have great success using over-sized .315"+ bullets in the military .303 chamber.  I must confess that I rebarreled my .303 using a Hyem hammer forges .30 cal. barrel of normal 7.62mm NATO dimensions, .300 bore, .308 groove, four grooves one turn in 12", and using a .303 British pressure and velocity test barrel reamer.  This rifle shoots very well indeed, but of course is no longer “military issue."

I hope that other .303 shooters will add their advise, and that our new thread "Lessons on Rule .303" will attract a following as large as the .32 Popguns!

 

 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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JeffinNZ posted this 18 March 2008

The Loverin will likely be too smaller in the girth and quite possible the '314299' (are you sure it's not a 311299?) may be also.  I had a 311466 opened up to throw WW at .315 and it shoots well in the .303 Brit.

If you are not getting the bullets to engage or having to seat them really long you have cordite throat wear.  Short of turning a couple of threads of the barrel and setting it back you are stuck with that. 

I would experiment with long, fat bullets.  Jim at CBE does a 313 215 that throws at .3155 in WW for me and it shoots REALLY well.  Likewise he has a new 316 175 castings at near .317 for BIG barrels.

Don't be afraid to try a fat bullet.  The chambers are well big enough to accomodate.

 

Cheers from New Zealand

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dromia posted this 19 March 2008

Have you slugged your barrel? Whats the bore and groove diameters?

A throat slug or chamber cast would be good to see the state of the throat, as always good boolit fit is the key, better to know what your looking for rather than buying moulds and hoping.

As previously mentioned I would check the cast diameter of the boolits thrown from the 314299 as these work in most .303"s. If your slugs tell you you need more diameter then you could try a bit of Beagling.

I've got 16 .303"s at present with avariety of throat conditions and groove diameter but .314” works in them all, admitedly better in some than others but the worst still does 5 moa and the best, a No 4T new barrel, does around the inch at 100 yrds as does a Fulton regualted No1.

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giorgio de galleani posted this 20 March 2008

I have not made chamber casts of my three smle,just shot the .314 Lyman bullets and .313 Harris #72.by nei.

 My Lyman bullets are rather out of round .

I like to shoot the largest bullets the chamber accepts freely,with the nose engraving in the beginning of the rifling,as I believe my bullets are damaged by  my sizing.

This morning I am loading the#72,following ED Harris advice,using a.315die and seating them one caliber deep in the case. I controlled the bedding of the guns and tightened some screws.

 this afternoon I 'll shoot them at my 100 meters range and i'll let you know the results.

I slugged the throats and have a picture of the bullets,To night I'll try to send them to this post using the instructions received in the FAQ section.

I found yesterday the book Bell of Africa,and I am reading of the deeds he did with a couple of .303 sporters, wonderful reading.

I am planning to have a 200 grainer round nose mould made,to duplicate the old 303 cartridge.

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giorgio de galleani posted this 21 March 2008

Dear Ed,

I have followed your recipe exactly,using heat treated gas checks ,using a .315 sizer die.

The Parker & Hale two groove sporter shot the usual 1.5 MOA groups, while the issue Long Branch 5 groved rifle shot even better, near1.2 MOA. This piece has ashort sporter forend and a Tasco 4-16x40 scope with P&H rings and bases.

I tightened all the  stock screws and put on a chinese lateral scope mount from brownells,with a Weaver 3-9-x 40 scope.

That' s unexpected success,Thanks to your advice.

 

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giorgio de galleani posted this 27 March 2008

I am trying to add a picture in my reply.

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giorgio de galleani posted this 27 March 2008

Here I am with the text to the 303 picture.

You can see :a311 sierra flat base seated as far as she goes,Harris 72 bullets seated in two diffeent rifles a .314 loverin by Lyman seated nose forward and the other way up.

The #72 bullet shoots good loaded as per Ed's instruction,but a heavier bullet should have a .314 body as long as the third case, with the gas check inside the neck and a wide  ogival nose ,starting from .314.Overall lenghth compatible with the magazine nd a round or flat meplat as feeding requires.

Would be Veral be able to make me a 4 cavity mould for such a bullet?

Please give me your advice.

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Ed Harris posted this 28 March 2008

giorgio de galleani wrote: The #72 bullet shoots good loaded as per Ed's instruction,but a heavier bullet should have a .314 body as long as the third case, with the gas check inside the neck and a wide  ogival nose ,starting from .314.Overall lenghth compatible with the magazine nd a round or flat meplat as feeding requires. Would be Veral be able to make me a 4 cavity mould for such a bullet?

Please give me your advice. Veral should be able to make you a 4-cavity similar to what you want. My advice is e to send him a chamber cast or upset lead slug to enable an exact fit in your rifle.  I have been able to feed flat-nosed bullets OK in my Long Branch if the bolt was operated deliberately.  I think that a 200-gr. bullet shaped similarly much like the old Kynoch 215-gr. roundnose, with long parallell sided bore-riding nose .304-.305” diameter and full hemispherical  radius ogive with .197 (5mm) meplat would be about right.  I would defer to Veral's judgement as to the particulars of bullet design, as he is familiar with what is required for effective hunting bullets, and I am confident he is familiar enough with the No. 4 to ensure that the bullet will magazine feed also. 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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dromia posted this 28 March 2008

Where's this thread Ed? Ed Harris wrote: "Lessons on Rule .303" 

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Ed Harris posted this 28 March 2008

I half in jest used Rule .303 to collectively refer to other scattered posts on this site related to the .303 British cartridge, however, you no doubt are aware of the phrase's greater historical significance.

I would urge other historically ignorant “colonials” to rent the DVD “Breaker Morant” and research the historical background, this link is a start:

http://tarlton.law.utexas.edu/lpop/etext/okla/kershen22.htm>http://tarlton.law.utexas.edu/lpop/etext/okla/kershen22.htm

"...Morant had not executed prisoners prior to Captain Hunt's mutilation. At the Court-Martial, when challenged to explain the rule under which Visser was shot, Morant passionately responded that it was customary in war to kill the enemy. Morant admitted disdainfully that the execution did not look like the Court-Martial, but he reminded the Court that war is not a Court-Martial and soldiers do and are expected to use their British Enfield Caliber 303 rifles to kill the enemy. Seething, Morant answered, "We caught them and we shot them under Rule 303." 

Rule 303 is in the same chapter of the “Code of Human Conduct” as the rule that allows cattle posses to hang rustlers, white vigilantes to hang Black rapists, Black militants to ring Black collaborators with burning tires, and revolutionary crowds to guillotine counterrevolutionaries. The chapter title is "Summary Executions."

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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dromia posted this 28 March 2008

"shoot straight you b**s"

I saw the stage play. :)

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cityboy posted this 01 April 2008

Ed Harris wrote: If bullets are seated far out, so that the shank length held by the case neck is less than the bullet diameter, ballistic uniformity is adversely affected. 

EdCan you explain this in more detail? I have two rifles that are not shooting as well as they should. Both have Hart barrels with a 0.310 free bore about 0.20 inches long with a 1.5 degree included angle throat. One is a 30-30 on a small ring M98 action, and the other is a 30-06 built on a 03-A3 action. I taper the bullets in Eagan dies and size to 0.309 inches. The taper is adjusted so the seating depth is less than the bullet diameter. I'm wondering if the section of the bullet in the free bore should be untapered and perhaps giving better support to the bullet.Cityboy 

 

 

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CB posted this 01 April 2008

Jim,

With the set up you are describing, you should get best accuracy with the cb loaded in the throat at 'stop', where the cb will not enter any farther. Tapering the cb and loading 'stop' at the gas check or into the band in front of it (less than caliber depth), you will still get good ballistic uniformity. I've shot 1,000s a rounds this way with many at 8-12fps Standard Deviation.

If you load at the gas check with the cb back from 'stop', then the cb will exit the mouth of the case with no resistance which will lead to erratic burning. If the seating depth is at caliber depth as Ed describes it, the neck tension will offer enough resistance for uniform pressure and burn. Ed can probably explain it better but hope this helps you understand......................Dan

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tturner53 posted this 12 November 2010

Does the above mentioned thread “Lessons on Rule .303” exist or is that a general reference? I looked, no see.

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Ed Harris posted this 12 November 2010

tturner53 wrote: Does the above mentioned thread “Lessons on Rule .303” exist or is that a general reference? I looked, no see. A general reference in remembrance of  Harry 'Breaker' Morant 9 December 1864 ”€œ 27 February 1902(1902-02-27) (aged 37)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaker_Morant>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BreakerMorant 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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biddulph posted this 13 November 2010

Hi Ed,

"Rule 303": you've seen Breaker Morant:

"We tried them and we shot them under rule 303 sir..."

Powerful movie that one.

 

cheers

James

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tturner53 posted this 14 November 2010

Thanks for the tip, I'm putting that movie on my Netflix list. Just watched “Hurt Locker'. an Iraq movie. I liked the line when the officer tells the soldier “He doesn't make it.” He was referring to a wounded captured insurgent needing medical attention. Anyway, my recent episode with the .303 has been mildly successful. Shot a bubba'd #5 offhand in postal match #17. The gun/load will put them all in the heart, but I won't. I found the gun already chopped. It's a shame, serial number is real low, H9. Must have been an early one. The bore is beautiful, sharp and smooth. Now I'm putting that little carbine away and going for some gusto loads with a Savage #4 and a 1915 Lithgow #1. Jeff in NZ has recommended 41 gr. H4350 under the NOE 316299, a very fat 314299. That load is supposed to hit over 2,000 fps which may make it a good silhouette candidate. I'll also try the .303brit.com load of 47 gr. WC860 and a 200 gr. bullet. Now that's a powder I have plenty of. I did win a lb. of IMR 4350 in a milsil match a few weeks ago, so I'm sitting pretty for now.

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tturner53 posted this 30 November 2012

Once again I find stuff here that I forgot about! I gotta keep better notes. Postal matches are over, so's most of the local matches. Out comes the .303s for more experimenting. I've acquired some new Remington .303 brass, from back in the day when they sold it packaged in regular ammo boxes of 20. I really want to make the most of this stash so have been rereading everything I can find on fireforming .303. It's come down to two choices, the ” o-ring method” from 'boolits', or Jeff in NZ's oiled case with no bullet style. What to do? I'm leaning towards oiled cases just based on Jeff's credibility with the .303. Thoughts? Also, I really liked the idea of an ongoing thread for the .303 and various rifles for it. Whadda ya got? Oh, is there any benefit in using one of these methods on once fired commercial brass? Too late?

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Ed Harris posted this 30 November 2012

Yes fireform oiled cases, then neck size only. At least that is what Canadian gunsmith Don Hamiltontold me to do with mine.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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tturner53 posted this 12 December 2012

I fireformed 20 new RP .303 cases in my Savage #4. This thing has a huge throat and .318 grooves! Anyway, the lightly oiled with WD40 trick worked great. Load was Lee CTL 312-160 2R, SR4756 12.5 gr., and a COW filler to help make up for the undersize bullet. Cases came out perfectly formed to my chamber, I'll keep close count on these cases and see how they hold up to the fairly heavy loads I have planned for this rifle (316299+IMR4350). By the way, accuracy of the fireform load was about 7” for all 20 at 100 yds. Gonna need a way fatter bullet I think.   EDIT: I should add the fired brass is now 2.226” long from the factory 2.207” before fireforming. Quite a difference.

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raytear posted this 13 December 2012

T

Wow!  .318--- you are talking original 8 X 57 mm Mauser territory there.

If you get desperate, let me know, I have some Lee ca. 170 grn 8mm I'll “shoot” your way if you want to test something larger than over-sized .30s.

Blessed Christmas and good shooting! RT

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tturner53 posted this 13 December 2012

Thanks Ray, I have that mold and IIRC the nose is too big to chamber without seating real deep. Seems I remember some Ol Frank Marshall articles about a gun like this, the .30 JOC or something like that. I'll do a little research. There's molds for the .32 Special but I want something heavier and not a flat point. Could end up a custom deal. You can buy Woodleigh jacketed .318s for the old Westly Richards but man they're expensive. I do appreciate the offer.

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